Conservation of Energy is broken, but can we also do something about DK please?

hoangdz · April 28

This is not healthy for the game either:

DK still going to dominate PvP along with WW. Next patch's meta is going to be pretty stupid boring.

IncultaWolf · April 28

I'd rather not see DK nerfed. I thought the entire point of these reworks and class refreshes were to bring everything else up to par. If that's not the case then maybe it will have to be looked at eventually. But as it stands right now, I have no hopes for Warden being able to compete with Dragonknight if the devs keep listening to these nerf requests. Warden won't even survive pts.

React · April 28

Really wish they weren't going for another "free damage proc" with the wildfire passive. They could have done something actually interesting with some sort of dot damage modifier, but instead we are getting pyreband to go with our pyreband.

xylena · April 28

5pc proc set doing 17% dmg and you think the class itself is the problem?

Deal with the sets and baseline stat inflation first. Let's see the new class designs play out.

BattleAxe · April 28

xylena wrote: »

5pc proc set doing 17% dmg and you think the class itself is the problem?

Deal with the sets and baseline stat inflation first. Let's see the new class designs play out.

It’s not the dot from Pyrebrand it’s the heavy attack consuming Pyrebrand and or wildfire stacks just heads up.Pyrebrand already got adjusted to only give wildfire embers once every 12 seconds. Which means it’s not free damage and in PvP heavy attacks are pretty easy to avoid.

React · April 28

BattleAxe wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

5pc proc set doing 17% dmg and you think the class itself is the problem?

Deal with the sets and baseline stat inflation first. Let's see the new class designs play out.

It’s not the dot from Pyrebrand it’s the heavy attack consuming Pyrebrand and or wildfire stacks just heads up.Pyrebrand already got adjusted to only give wildfire embers once every 12 seconds. Which means it’s not free damage and in PvP heavy attacks are pretty easy to avoid.

What exactly are you saying here? I must be looking at a different cmx screenshot, because the Pyrebrand in this picture is definitely not from heavy attacking, as that would imply OP was heavy attacked 99 times in 2 minutes 11 seconds.

Pyrebrand and wildfire both qualify as "free" damage, as does the burning status effect. All of it will build and proc off doing nothing outside of your standard rotation. Those three things make up nearly 40% of the damage in this particular fight, that isn't at all healthy gameplay.

BattleAxe · April 29

React wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

5pc proc set doing 17% dmg and you think the class itself is the problem?

Deal with the sets and baseline stat inflation first. Let's see the new class designs play out.

It’s not the dot from Pyrebrand it’s the heavy attack consuming Pyrebrand and or wildfire stacks just heads up.Pyrebrand already got adjusted to only give wildfire embers once every 12 seconds. Which means it’s not free damage and in PvP heavy attacks are pretty easy to avoid.

What exactly are you saying here? I must be looking at a different cmx screenshot, because the Pyrebrand in this picture is definitely not from heavy attacking, as that would imply OP was heavy attacked 99 times in 2 minutes 11 seconds.

Pyrebrand and wildfire both qualify as "free" damage, as does the burning status effect. All of it will build and proc off doing nothing outside of your standard rotation. Those three things make up nearly 40% of the damage in this particular fight, that isn't at all healthy gameplay.

Go read the tool tip on Pyrebrand. Because there is more to Pyrebrand than what it applies with light attacks.

React · April 29

BattleAxe wrote: »

React wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

5pc proc set doing 17% dmg and you think the class itself is the problem?

Deal with the sets and baseline stat inflation first. Let's see the new class designs play out.

It’s not the dot from Pyrebrand it’s the heavy attack consuming Pyrebrand and or wildfire stacks just heads up.Pyrebrand already got adjusted to only give wildfire embers once every 12 seconds. Which means it’s not free damage and in PvP heavy attacks are pretty easy to avoid.

What exactly are you saying here? I must be looking at a different cmx screenshot, because the Pyrebrand in this picture is definitely not from heavy attacking, as that would imply OP was heavy attacked 99 times in 2 minutes 11 seconds.

Pyrebrand and wildfire both qualify as "free" damage, as does the burning status effect. All of it will build and proc off doing nothing outside of your standard rotation. Those three things make up nearly 40% of the damage in this particular fight, that isn't at all healthy gameplay.

Go read the tool tip on Pyrebrand. Because there is more to Pyrebrand than what it applies with light attacks.

I understand how the set works. You responded to a comment from Xylena where they pointed out that Pyrebrand was dealing 17% of the damage in OP's CMX, and you suggested that they could counterplay it because "heavy attacks are easy to avoid". Little-to-none of that damage is coming from the heavy attack portion of Pyrebrand, it is almost all coming from the light attack proc portion of the set.

So what exactly are you trying to say, again?

NxJoeyD · April 29

Conservation really isn't broken, it's just strong, which is exactly what we need.

Sure it can deliver strong sustain and yeah, it can buff the Blood Magic heal, but, in the context of having to carry sub-par skills the sustain isn't a problem.

Further, HA is a material element in many Sorc play styles, which won't proc Conservation or Blood. Which means that this passive isn't going to, realistically, be proccing every second.

Further, and to your point, we have very strong WW and continuingly strong DKs on the horizon that both deliver significant power over Sorcs, are we saying Sorcs are just supposed to be body meat and have insufficient sustain in light of that kind of power?

Our Class sets are poo, most of our skills are poo, we lack many key buff / debuffs as well as burst, our Shield is still one of the best in-game but it was nerfed unnecessarily, our execute is laughable now after it too was nerfed.

We can't burst 20k crit attacks after mitigation on a consistent basis with any of our class skills as pure-sorc like subclassed builds can, so if we're going to compete then strong sustain is one one thing we can lean on until our turn with the refresh.

Pyrebrand is a strong set and I do agree that there's a basis to look at adjusting the values on that one. .. I'm reluctant to talk much about DK because we all still need to go through the class refresh but the one thing I'm side-eyeing with DK is Hearth & Home. If DK is going to have a hard CC skill that provides strong follow up potential as well as a mobility buff that also provides soft CC immunity then the class does not really need any form of mobility debuff outside of the Traumatic passive; especially a debuff at 70%.

It's a bit much to pack all of that into one class, if DK is going to have all of those available mechanical benefits then they shouldn't also have a movement debuff, that's having your cake and eating it too.

I noticed this after the initial refresh but I didn't want to really go there yet because other classes haven't been re-worked yet, but, I'm doubtful that other classes are going to receive such a broad scope of skill function like what DK got so I suppose it's worth thinking about.

Wuuffyy · April 29

hoangdz wrote: »

This is not healthy for the game either:

DK still going to dominate PvP along with WW. Next patch's meta is going to be pretty stupid boring.

How realistic is it to have even half the amount of stacks needs to get Pyrebrand to even half the level of the 17% displayed in that parse outside of a 1 v 1 an opponent can sustain in (and how problematic is healing that we can even parse and survive this)?

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

get Pyrebrand to even half the level of the 17% displayed

Zero effort, Pyrebrand is braindead and can be slapped on any DK to do the same thing.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

get Pyrebrand to even half the level of the 17% displayed

Zero effort, Pyrebrand is braindead and can be slapped on any DK to do the same thing.

Dawg, I see no way that you are building 10 or so wildfire stacks *whatever the max number* is per player before they are dead in actual, non dueling PvP. Given that Pyrebrand damage is based off those, I am asking how realistic it is for you to see even have the max wildfire stacks on a player in PvP that isn’t a tank sitting on their back bar.

Do I think Pyrebrand should have THAT much damage, no. Do I think the damage values should be reduced, yes. Do I think it needs to be removed removed from PvP in favor of ‘on monsters’ because of its maximum potential in a duel, no.

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I am asking how realistic it is for you to see even have the max wildfire stacks on a player in PvP

They rightfully nerfed the Pyre/Wildfire interaction so idk what you're talking about.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I am asking how realistic it is for you to see even have the max wildfire stacks on a player in PvP

They rightfully nerfed the Pyre/Wildfire interaction so idk what you're talking about.

Are you perhaps not aware that Pyrebrand reaches those damage values because it is increased by wildfire stacks and that those simply, now, primarily come from the DK skills themselves vs Pyrebrand holding its weight for generation?

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Are you perhaps not aware that Pyrebrand reaches those damage values because

Pyrebrand already puts these numbers up on Live it has nothing to do with Wildfire.

Buff the classes. Gut the sets.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Buff the classes. Gut the sets.

Buff classes, please don’t just gut sets indiscriminately. Wanting to share this just in case you missed it (I’ve missed stuff with all the new changes so I can see oversight there).

That’s from the original PTS week here. It’s saying ‘hey we nerfed Pyrebrand by 30%, but now it goes up to ~300% damage at max wildfire (this new, optional mechanic we added).

That’s what I mean when I am asking how realistically is it to have half those wildfire stacks (for Pyrebrand) before your opponent is dead in PvP (or a tank… and I’m thinking along the lines of why we’d care there per-say)

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

That’s what I mean when I am asking how realistically is it to have half those wildfire stacks (for Pyrebrand) before your opponent is dead in PvP

Only the dot on LA is relevant. The whole 17% is just that. The HA thing is fluff.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

That’s what I mean when I am asking how realistically is it to have half those wildfire stacks (for Pyrebrand) before your opponent is dead in PvP

Only the dot on LA is relevant. The whole 17% is just that. The HA thing is fluff.

That is saying that it increase both. That’s why it’s hitting as hard as it is.

If you hit the dummy, you’ll see your Pyrebrand number will start to increase, even LA weaving, as your wildfire stacks increase.

The old increase was up to 60 and they changed that to ‘up to 300’ with the stacks. It affects both ends I believe as it does on live I believe.

xylena · April 29

Pyrebrand is often 20% of a player's damage on Live. Just for light attacking. It's extremely powerful and reliable relative to its trivial proc conditions. That's what's relevant to PvP.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Pyrebrand is often 20% of a player's damage on Live. Just for light attacking. It's extremely powerful and reliable relative to its trivial proc conditions. That's what's relevant to PvP.

Was this an auto-generated response? I’m confused now.

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Was this an auto-generated response? I’m confused now.

You're confused because you keep asking me about the irrelevant half of Pyrebrand.

The relevant half is (re)applying a dot every LA (plus that it ticks immediately).

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Was this an auto-generated response? I’m confused now.

You're confused because you keep asking me about the irrelevant half of Pyrebrand.

The relevant half is (re)applying a dot every LA (plus that it ticks immediately).

The wildfire interaction is what makes the LA do more- otherwise Pyrebrand would simply just be 30% worse than live. This is embarrassing for one of us- I try to be as respectful as I can but this is actually out-of-pocket. You and group are so nerf-happy you don’t even understand why the things you want nerfed based on a 1 v 1 are working the way they do there in the first place. Therefore, instead of providing any meaningful feedback on how something can be adjusted, the request is to GUT instead.

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The wildfire interaction

Irrelevant. Does not exist on Live. Pyrebrand still #1 on DK dps sheet.

You asked me what was relevant to PvP. I told you. If someone else wants to break down why the irrelevant part is irrelevant then they can do that but I'm not paid enough for that.

albertberku · April 29

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

You asked me what was relevant to PvP. I told you.

Pyrebrand still #1 on DK dps sheet.

I never, not a single time asked you this question. Scroll up.

Sure, add a damage decrease of 30-50% ‘Battle Spirit’ active for starters. I never once said ‘Pyrebrand should never, ever be adjusted in PvP’ It just shouldn’t be completely removed from PvP.

xylena · April 29

Someone else wanna explain Pyrebrand to this guy?

If the devs have a legit choice between nerfing the class or nerfing the set, 100% of the time nerf the set, not the class. There are like 600+ freakin sets with more constantly added.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Someone else wanna explain Pyrebrand to this guy?

If the devs have a legit choice between nerfing the class or nerfing the set, 100% of the time nerf the set, not the class. There are like 600+ freakin sets with more constantly added.

They can nerf the set without making it unusable. That’s what I’m telling you. There are 100s of sets that are useless, we don’t need more of them regardless of content.

Come back to me if they ever change that- then sure, zero a few sets in PvP after some deliberation.

xylena · April 29

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts.

I think it's fair to criticize the interaction between Conservation and Max HP.

But DK and Sorc are both in a decent place otherwise and shouldn't be messed with. There are numerous problem sets that could be nuked to deal with extremes of the meta.

albertberku · April 29

Well, first of all sustain is not better than what you can have on builds currently. About healing, you could halve the healing, you could put a limit to it or you could limit the abilities it will proc off. But we are talking about maybe like 1k - 1,5k HoT per second difference at most here. I am not sure it justifies the need for a new thread every day having a title about how broken Conservation of Energy is.

Dracane · April 29

albertberku wrote: »

Well, first of all sustain is not better than what you can have on builds currently. About healing, you could halve the healing, you could put a limit to it or you could limit the abilities it will proc off. But we are talking about maybe like 1k - 1,5k HoT per second difference at most here. I am not sure it justifies the need for a new thread every day having a title about how broken Conservation of Energy is.

In the hands of most builds, the HoT from Blood Magic won't be a problem or even be particularly impactful. It's when you stack a lot of health, which is too easy to do whilst still having enough damage to kill anyone. The extremes are the issue, and extremes are easier than ever to reach.

It's trivial to fix this passive without harming average builds at all.

Seraphayel · April 29

Maybe giving DK a blanket nerf (debuff) of 10-15% for PvP until all classes got revamped would be a solution. Warden with the upcoming revamp will also get the debuff etc, this happens to all classes until the final rework has been said and done. At that moment all of the blanket debuff nerfs will be removed.