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Judment’s Brand - is this intended?
VinnyGambini
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Hello,
Just a question to @ZOS about Judment’s Brand. Skill description says it increases damage by 1500 and 750 in pvp. However the pvp bonus is further decreased by battle spirit, resulting in effective 300 dmg increase. Proof below:
As you can see my jabs did 1625 buffed and 1294 unbuffed (3,1s buff expired) so it's 330 damage increase, not 700, bettle spirit decreases the value.
Is this intended to decrease this passive damage by 78% in PvP? (from 1500 to 330)
Please let us know your official statement regarding this.
Just a question to @ZOS about Judment’s Brand. Skill description says it increases damage by 1500 and 750 in pvp. However the pvp bonus is further decreased by battle spirit, resulting in effective 300 dmg increase. Proof below:
As you can see my jabs did 1625 buffed and 1294 unbuffed (3,1s buff expired) so it's 330 damage increase, not 700, bettle spirit decreases the value.
Is this intended to decrease this passive damage by 78% in PvP? (from 1500 to 330)
Please let us know your official statement regarding this.
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VinnyGambini✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.
The base value of 1500 vs mobs, halved vs players. Battlespirit has another 50% reduction but that kicks in after the flat 750 is added to the base tt of templar skills.
This is why it's such a terrible passive.1 -
mmtaniac✭✭✭✭✭Maybe they forget about battle spirit implement. Or it's just enemy armor cut some of that damage. They won't write wchich type of damage it is there is not any suggest. it's just damage.Edited by mmtaniac on 28 April 2026 09:170 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭✭They are so scared to let Templar do damage it’s crazy. Looks like we’re only healers again this year too.0 -
VinnyGambini✭✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.
The base value of 1500 vs mobs, halved vs players. Battlespirit has another 50% reduction but that kicks in after the flat 750 is added to the base tt of templar skills.
This is why it's such a terrible passive.
Exactly, this passive is exclusively PvE damage, in PvP it's absolutely worthless, and I think that the idea was to make jabs viable again. Thats why I'm wondering if it's intended or not.
@Ardriel not only for you, mine is also 1400 / 700.0 -
PeacefulAnarchy✭✭✭✭✭
✭VinnyGambini wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.
Because percent values are based on the values affected by battle spirit, so there's no need to reduce percentage further. All flat damage bonuses are affected by battle spirit, percentage bonuses aren't because they're going to be a percentage of an already reduced number already.
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Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭... /facepalm
I'll leave it at that for now.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
Yea so Templar should be the only class affacted by battle spirit? Why doesn't subclassing get affected by battle spirit?
It's not supposed to be like that.
Templar masteries are a joke , could just remove them.
Fix templar pla @ZOS_Kevin0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭All these extra penalties vs battle spirit make no sense to me seeing how battlespirit already has built in damage reduction.
Also, if I subclass into ardent flame my whip won't hit weaker against players but my pureclass jabs will. Make it make sense.
I also want to add, that Bright Harbinger, with all the spell damage amps templar has access to gives almost the same damage per jab tick, while also affecting healing, and any other non templar damage, thus not pigeonholing into only using templar skills.Edited by Firstmep on 30 April 2026 09:460 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.
This boils down to a misunderstanding of Battle Spirit, tooltips and CMX and misreading the information these tools are showing. The TL:DR of this is as follows:
NB crit damage mastery increases the characters crit damage stat which is not affected by battle spirit because battle spirit does not apply it's 50% mitigation to character stats (this is because battle spirit essentially acts as the "final reduction" that applies itself at the end of the damage calculation after all other bonuses and reductions have been applied).
Judgment's Brand is applying itself to the Jabs ability and when looking at the ability tooltip, the bonus will show the 750 increase.
CMX is misleading here because CMX shows the actual damage done/taken after all bonuses and reductions are applied (which includes battle spirit) so CMX will show battle spirit reduction and look like the mastery is only applying an ~375 boost when it is still applying the 750 boost to the skill tooltip.
To extend on this:If the NB using that crit damage mastery were to get a critical strike on another player, then the overall effect of battle spirit will reduce the damage by its 50% reduction, so it does still technically apply to the NB mastery as well when that mastery takes effect and the NB lands a critical strike on a player enemy, it just doesn't show up anywhere because battle spirit is not applying itself to the character stats or tooltips (excluding damage shield tooltips since they are a unique mechanic to damage and healing), battle spirit only applies when calculating damage done/taken and it's done this way to prevent other mitigation values from being severely reduced in effectiveness since battle spirit is typically the biggest mitigation value and would always apply first and for all intents and purposes would halve all other percent mitigation values if it applied the same as other regular percent mitigation.
The other reason why battle spirit should work the way it does is because if it applied itself before any other mitigation values were applied, it would be trivial to reach 100% or more mitigation in PvP because everything would be 50% weaker before applying the characters mitigation values, especially with any non-percent mitigation values. With battle spirit working this way, it's much harder to reach 100% mitigation (outside of some overlooked additive interactions that existed in the past) and even 99.9% mitigation will still deal 1 damage and allow for on-damage effects to still proc.
This is why things like merciless resolve (and now whip) damage is so absurd, since to reach those damage done values (20k+) that show up on CMX, means they would be hitting for 50k, 60k or even 70k+ if we didn't have battle spirit, which is double most peoples health bars, even now, and is just insane damage values to think about.1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Yes - because that's how Battle Spirit works.
How can you be so sure? For example nb passive increses crit dmg by 25% in pve and 5% in pvp. Battle spirit doesnt decrease 5% value, it stays 5%. Why templar flat dmg increase gets decreased by battle spirit just like nb passive?
I just want to be sure if this is intended or not. Maybe zos idea was different and only the execition was bad.
This boils down to a misunderstanding of Battle Spirit, tooltips and CMX and misreading the information these tools are showing. The TL:DR of this is as follows:
NB crit damage mastery increases the characters crit damage stat which is not affected by battle spirit because battle spirit does not apply it's 50% mitigation to character stats (this is because battle spirit essentially acts as the "final reduction" that applies itself at the end of the damage calculation after all other bonuses and reductions have been applied).
Judgment's Brand is applying itself to the Jabs ability and when looking at the ability tooltip, the bonus will show the 750 increase.
CMX is misleading here because CMX shows the actual damage done/taken after all bonuses and reductions are applied (which includes battle spirit) so CMX will show battle spirit reduction and look like the mastery is only applying an ~375 boost when it is still applying the 750 boost to the skill tooltip.
To extend on this:If the NB using that crit damage mastery were to get a critical strike on another player, then the overall effect of battle spirit will reduce the damage by its 50% reduction, so it does still technically apply to the NB mastery as well when that mastery takes effect and the NB lands a critical strike on a player enemy, it just doesn't show up anywhere because battle spirit is not applying itself to the character stats or tooltips (excluding damage shield tooltips since they are a unique mechanic to damage and healing), battle spirit only applies when calculating damage done/taken and it's done this way to prevent other mitigation values from being severely reduced in effectiveness since battle spirit is typically the biggest mitigation value and would always apply first and for all intents and purposes would halve all other percent mitigation values if it applied the same as other regular percent mitigation.
The other reason why battle spirit should work the way it does is because if it applied itself before any other mitigation values were applied, it would be trivial to reach 100% or more mitigation in PvP because everything would be 50% weaker before applying the characters mitigation values, especially with any non-percent mitigation values. With battle spirit working this way, it's much harder to reach 100% mitigation (outside of some overlooked additive interactions that existed in the past) and even 99.9% mitigation will still deal 1 damage and allow for on-damage effects to still proc.
This is why things like merciless resolve (and now whip) damage is so absurd, since to reach those damage done values (20k+) that show up on CMX, means they would be hitting for 50k, 60k or even 70k+ if we didn't have battle spirit, which is double most peoples health bars, even now, and is just insane damage values to think about.
It's 700 on pts, but regardless it is incredibly weak. Apart from jabs, which is easily scalable with basic stats, most other templar damage is on a 2 sec tick rate so they don't benefit much from this flat damage.
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