@ladyGP

IMO you need the large zergs in cyrodil pvp. I dont get the whiplash comments of "we need to nerf ballgroups" and then 5 seconds later "OMG its a zerg gamemode". We cant have just ballgroups on top of the world with the pug groups just being curb stomped over and over. Cyrodil is basically a children's playground, and if you have a small group of bullies abusing all the other kids....the other kids will just leave one by one if they can't play. Likewise we can't have one single faction with a majority of the population like we saw in this veng campaign. People just swapped to EP and there was a huge score difference that will drive more casuals to swap to the winning side.

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Otherwise I think we would agree on things like: reduce the loadout bonuses as you slowly introduce build elements like rebalanced mundus, food, armor enchants(minus tristat only meta). I myself have proposed they should make a veng stickerbook that you can slot nonproc performative gear onto your pvp loadouts through UI. They should add morphs back with performance and playstyle diversity in mind. EX: dizzy swing hits less dmg but casts faster....Wrecking hits for more dmg, but casts slower. Simple morphs like this are EASY for zos to copy and paste while making wildly different playstyles possible.

JonnAndCo wrote: »

I felt the 6/12 Healing/AoE caps introduced over the weekend improved play. I didn't notice any problems either.

Oh thanks for confirming, we were going crazy because our aoe was hitting more than 3 players. We also did not see any issues fps or lag wise all weekend.

I would probably recommend zos just sticks to a 6 player aoe cap for normal skills and then MAYBE do a 12 player aoe cap for ults. 6 players is a pretty good sweetspot where after that you start losing track of if people were immune or not and whether your stun should have hit them all, but again this is where a 12 player cap could function on an Ultimate instead.

Didn't find any stalemates, damage quite quickly outpaced healing in all scenarios that I experienced.

General feedback is: absolutely bring this mode back 100%, best large-scale fights and activity I've experienced since coming back to the game in Jan! Normal campaigns don't feel enjoyable at all by comparison for me as a casual.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

What vengeance does right is that it brings back the zerg as the overwhelming force it was always intended to be in cyrodil. Newer and casual pvpers need the safety of the herd or else they simply just leave.

Live GH pvp fails at this because coordinated ball groups of 12 players can stack group sets and buffs to the point where they 12x their 12x players..........effectively becoming worth 144 players worth of stats in one tight coordinated ball. Its just uncontrolled design on zos's part where now you allow 12 player groups to force 144+ players to leave the campaign because they just lose any fight they come into.

The hope with Veng would be to bring back build elements like Sets or morphs without ballooning too much into group stacking mechanics.....which are probably the worst offending performance set design for the server anyways. IMO there should be a UI based veng set collection stickerbook where your veng gear is stored. Just focus on nonproc sets and maybe the stat tradeoff concepts already in the perk system. For skill morphs, just do different versions of skills like make dizzy do low damage quick cast, make wrecking morph do high damage long cast time. Real simple but creates an insane amount of playstyle diversity without ballooning the game with tacked on effects for every morph.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your viewpoint and "facts" here.

example: 144+ people don't "leave" because they run into a ball group. 144+ don't just "leave" in general. If they did we wouldn't have 80-150 person queues each night. There are still zergs in GH.. last night DC got stomped by the EP zerg multiple times.

Vengeance movement speed - god its awful. A massive map and I got the speed of a toddler on a tricycle to get anywhere. Make base speed of all players equal to 5x medium armor plus celerity passive, and similarly for mount include major gallop by default. I truely feel bad for anyone that decides to pick up a scroll and run it home.

Door and keep repair is great - port that code over to Grey Host.

Siege - is too strong against players with no accessible counter.

6 targets on AoE feels good. I like the idea of AoE ultimate being able to affect more players than that.

I get bored after 30 minutes of Vengeance most of the time and log out. The only impactful beat the zerg feeling I get is with organized groups that *sometimes* are able to punch through with superior tactics.

LadyGP wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

What vengeance does right is that it brings back the zerg as the overwhelming force it was always intended to be in cyrodil. Newer and casual pvpers need the safety of the herd or else they simply just leave.

Live GH pvp fails at this because coordinated ball groups of 12 players can stack group sets and buffs to the point where they 12x their 12x players..........effectively becoming worth 144 players worth of stats in one tight coordinated ball. Its just uncontrolled design on zos's part where now you allow 12 player groups to force 144+ players to leave the campaign because they just lose any fight they come into.

The hope with Veng would be to bring back build elements like Sets or morphs without ballooning too much into group stacking mechanics.....which are probably the worst offending performance set design for the server anyways. IMO there should be a UI based veng set collection stickerbook where your veng gear is stored. Just focus on nonproc sets and maybe the stat tradeoff concepts already in the perk system. For skill morphs, just do different versions of skills like make dizzy do low damage quick cast, make wrecking morph do high damage long cast time. Real simple but creates an insane amount of playstyle diversity without ballooning the game with tacked on effects for every morph.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your viewpoint and "facts" here.

example: 144+ people don't "leave" because they run into a ball group. 144+ don't just "leave" in general. If they did we wouldn't have 80-150 person queues each night. There are still zergs in GH.. last night DC got stomped by the EP zerg multiple times.

For starters I never claimed any "facts"

We cant exactly pretend GH is a welcoming environment for new pvp players to engage with and return to day after day. The current live cyrodil is just not conducive to new player retention. By leave I obviously don't mean over night, its been a decade now of a declining pop due to the game's current state and balance. Remember earlier on we had multiple 900+ servers near pop locked each night. Now we are down to a single 300 pop server with closer to a 50person que that takes an hour, and 80-150 player que is a bit generous for most PCNA GH nights unless you mean combined for all the factions.

I just don't get the notion that we shouldn't have a place for newer players in pvp, I see this take all the time.....it only leads to a lower declining population. We are better off having the pugs catered to in some controlled aspect like them running the emp ring in obscenely large zergs. Then us better players can play around and farm them while inevitably dying. Current cyro ballgrouping just seems so watered down and a joke compared to fending off vengeance sized zergs like we used to early on in the game. To me its like old COD zombies or horde games in general. Most of the fun is seeing how far you will get knowing you will die at some point. Once you are at a point where you just win half the time because the zombie horde is 1/3 the size, its a different game and seems to have lost its luster. IDK maybe its just an old player point of view, I would probably think the same way if I didn't have the experiences I had in the 2014-2017 days.

WHY does this replace Ravenwatch?

WHYYYYYY?

Grey host will be pop locked and vengeance will be forced due to no other options...

LadyGP wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

What vengeance does right is that it brings back the zerg as the overwhelming force it was always intended to be in cyrodil. Newer and casual pvpers need the safety of the herd or else they simply just leave.

Live GH pvp fails at this because coordinated ball groups of 12 players can stack group sets and buffs to the point where they 12x their 12x players..........effectively becoming worth 144 players worth of stats in one tight coordinated ball. Its just uncontrolled design on zos's part where now you allow 12 player groups to force 144+ players to leave the campaign because they just lose any fight they come into.

The hope with Veng would be to bring back build elements like Sets or morphs without ballooning too much into group stacking mechanics.....which are probably the worst offending performance set design for the server anyways. IMO there should be a UI based veng set collection stickerbook where your veng gear is stored. Just focus on nonproc sets and maybe the stat tradeoff concepts already in the perk system. For skill morphs, just do different versions of skills like make dizzy do low damage quick cast, make wrecking morph do high damage long cast time. Real simple but creates an insane amount of playstyle diversity without ballooning the game with tacked on effects for every morph.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your viewpoint and "facts" here.

example: 144+ people don't "leave" because they run into a ball group. 144+ don't just "leave" in general. If they did we wouldn't have 80-150 person queues each night. There are still zergs in GH.. last night DC got stomped by the EP zerg multiple times.

For starters I never claimed any "facts"

We cant exactly pretend GH is a welcoming environment for new pvp players to engage with and return to day after day. The current live cyrodil is just not conducive to new player retention. By leave I obviously don't mean over night, its been a decade now of a declining pop due to the game's current state and balance. Remember earlier on we had multiple 900+ servers near pop locked each night. Now we are down to a single 300 pop server with closer to a 50person que that takes an hour, and 80-150 player que is a bit generous for most PCNA GH nights unless you mean combined for all the factions.

I just don't get the notion that we shouldn't have a place for newer players in pvp, I see this take all the time.....it only leads to a lower declining population. We are better off having the pugs catered to in some controlled aspect like them running the emp ring in obscenely large zergs. Then us better players can play around and farm them while inevitably dying. Current cyro ballgrouping just seems so watered down and a joke compared to fending off vengeance sized zergs like we used to early on in the game. To me its like old COD zombies or horde games in general. Most of the fun is seeing how far you will get knowing you will die at some point. Once you are at a point where you just win half the time because the zombie horde is 1/3 the size, its a different game and seems to have lost its luster. IDK maybe its just an old player point of view, I would probably think the same way if I didn't have the experiences I had in the 2014-2017 days.

You are speaking as what you say are "facts" - same thing.

Im not sure if you're not reading my posts or... have me mistaken for someone else but... I've said multiple times GH isn't the most welcoming (this is where Vengence is a good thing). I've literally made multiple posts saying the following:

- GH is difficult (it needs to be)
- Ball groups are way OP and need to be resolved
- Pull sets perform terrible in lag and need to be removed or reworked significantly
- Shieldstacking/heal stacking needs a good hard look

There are many reasons the player caps keep dropping - most of that can be directly tied to performance. When the servers got refreshed and things improved for a period the pop skyrocketed back up.

"Catering" to the pugs/casuals is the worst thing a studio can do. Look at every studio that has made massive overhaul design decisions based around pugs/casuals... their PvP dies out.

Casuals are simply that - casuals.. they come and they go... but your loyal PvPers (which there are good pvpers and bad pvpers loyal doesn't mean ballgroups/try hards FYI) are the ones that stick it out.

Balances passes and listening to feedback can reduce the frustrating around GH while still keeping core systems in place that allows everyone to play as they want - not forced to pick some Battlefield 6 style loadout system.

And I've been here since beta... and ran with ball groups. You're not going to get 2014-2017 experience/performance with the insane amount of complex skills/cp/sets they added. If you want that, vengence is for you.. but I hate to tell you.. you're still not going to get it because the core player base, the ones who log in day after day, aren't going to fill it. Its going to be filled with the, casuals as you put it, that simply want the rewards/end of camp bonuses.

Enjoy.

Pretty sure we are just angrily agreeing with each other. I was more or less pointing out that current GH has leaned so heavily in favor of ballgroups that the casual zergs get stomped out (which is currently the only newbie gateway to cyrodil) unlike in veng where they have their large zerg, but coordinated groups can still operate very well(with the new aoe caps) around the zerg. The rest of what I have been saying was that veng should have had its own build system instead of the disjointed perk+loadout system so new players would actually have a jumping off point towards how to build gear setups. While also laying the groundwork to eventually re-enable or replace the old pvp gear systems with a more performative equivalent.

I played on every class except Necro. The imbalance is very present. Nightblade and Dragonknight been miles ahead of every other class. If every class had better options for sustain (Inhale) and a cooldown based burst skill like NB that would lower the gap trmendously. As for as base template Scout was the only reliable option to deal any meaningfull DPS but it favored stamina driven skills clearly.
I liked the server performance very much. Siege equipment felt impactfull.

What is strange is this insistence that numbers are the deciding factor. I went with an elite guild that have been playing Cyrodiil for years, and several times our group was wiped by a single player with a decent build in Vengeance. The common theme is that people who like old Cyrodiil want their current meta and reliance on broken builds and sets rather than having to learn something new and theorycraft.

It's strange, as the barrier to entry was so much lower. All you'd need to do is spend a couple hours to figure things out vs grinding monster sets, mythics, and DLC of the month overpowered sets. You don't have invulnerability to snares, you can't pile on buffs & debuffs, you can't rely on procs to do the damage for you, positioning matters, siege is deadly, and you can't chain a bunch of procs in a group to boost your stats to absurd levels.

I only managed to get two sessions in this test before it shut down. Not being in my teens has made my available time to play games a lot more scarce. Hopefully we'll see Vengeance implemented sooner rather than later because the fights are glorious.

Hello! I've been training PVPers in ESO for roughly 5 years but this will be my first post in the forums! /ForrestGumpWave

How have your battles have been going?
Great! Had a blast during the live Vengeance testing.

If you hit stalemates, could you provide additional content around the fight?
Usually we experienced stalemates vs other, equally as skilled players on classes that can sustain (NB and DK) or when a keep siege was bottlenecked at an entrance point.

What day and time of day were you playing? (Day or Night)(NA/EU)
Some weekday evenings and most of Saturday/Sunday. PCNA

What did the battle look like player wise? Where there a lot of players around, or a smaller group? Photos/Videos will help here.
Large numbers of people! Fights varied between open field fights, keep fights, towers and resources. I took each class out and attempted various playing styles. (Staff, Bow, Sword and shield, DW, 2H etc). I make thematic characters for PVP and try to find a play style/class that best suites them and see what I can do with it. (Leveled hundreds of characters in pvp, no joke! Every possible way you can play with every class!) I have videos posted on my channel, it was a blast! Not sure if I'm allowed to link them or how all that works.

I felt it important to stop by for my first post to share some take aways based on my last 5 years of pvp training single people, small groups, large groups and full guilds and how this relates to Vengeance. I would consider myself a developmental coach, helping people get to where they want to be on an individual level and then within their groups or guilds.

The (TTK) Time to kill is that shortest we've ever seen in ESO, ever! Subclassing didn't just introduce interesting new ways to build characters, it opened the floodgates of damage. You throw free damage and healing from proc sets on top of the damage spike and it has created an atmosphere where everyone is running around with nuclear capabilities and new players to pvp, are getting blown up with zero counterplay. Its an extremely oppressive learning space where you will regularly see people getting spawn camped in BGs, having gave up on jumping down and participating entirely.

Not only does Vengeance dial back the lethality of the current damage issues, it solves the performance issues plaguing Cyrodiil. As a coach and player, I am in 110% support of Vengeance. We just need to get the class balancing right, and a handful of other adjustments to make it a long standing sandbox for current and new pvpers to come. Here is some things I would look at!

1: I would double the direct damage ultimate tooltips. Many are near the same tooltip numbers but now expected to dispatch people with 70k health. And while I know Battle Spirit no longer throttles the damage, you still need to take into consideration the resistances. We need a little more direct damage threat so the Vengeance meta is not stacking dots and winning via attrition. This is also a smart move so people that have less time manually dispatching groups of players without pull and proc sets don't start to think Vengeance will simply come down to whom has more numbers. I mean, lets be real.. it plays a huge factor. But with enough skill (practice) and damage, you can win those outnumbered fights. I PROMISE and have tons of gameplay video to prove it!

2: Every class needs a skill like NBs Merciless in Vengeance. Make it thematic to the class but an ability with a 19k tooltip that is ranged and can be used every 5 seconds. Necro needs its Blastbones, Templar needs its Power of the Light, Sorc needs its Frags, I would probably make Arch beam a direct damage beam blast (Ironman like?) cause lining up and killing 1 person with 70k HP isn't going to happen let alone 10 or more. But you get what I'm saying? It is a disservice to a class if they do not have access to a delayed burst ability like Merciless. Rotations will feel nice and 70k HP players will feel a little pressure from burst.

3: Every class needs access to Major Expedition within its class kit. Make it thematic but don't short a class under the idea "We don't want to homogenize the classes.." because you are not. You are equipping each of the classes for active combat. Give each class the tools to succeed!

4: Every class needs access to a form of sustain similar to Siphoning Attacks on NB. It was one of the few classes able to sustain well during Vengeance. Crunch those numbers and then make each class have a sustain source that turns out that same level of sustain thematically.

5: Skill morphs are needed. Classes with no sustain abilities were nearly unplayable to a degree. I mean, I could play it but it was nowhere near as competitive as NB and DK. Adding morphs will allow us to decide which resource pool to pull from to balance the workload. Plus give you more opportunities to bring each class to life thematically!

More to come. Need to pick my daughter up from dance.

BYE!

GrimsforgeGaming wrote: »

11: Bring a monthly weekend Whitestrakes to Vengeance. Drive players there!

12: Double the Major Resolve buffs for each class. Less buff simulator and more punching and kicking!

Would love to talk to someone about all this. I speak to A LOT of pvpers of all skillsets

Grimsforge first forum post complete!

/runsoffintothesunset

The only things missed here is the fact that many of the ultimates failed to fire at all. leaving DW ulti as the best option limiting playstyle.
The other thing is bow damage could use buff, bring it into line with other weapons.

Otherwise Im in agreement with most of this.
I personally am NOT a Cyrodil Fan due to the "riding simulator" feel. No one wants to ride for 15 minutes to get dropped on their head then have to repeat it. So adding a better mount speed (or some other fix) to decrease downtime would be nice. Being careful of course not to affect the taking of keeps and resources to the point of stalemates.
Morphs for abilities Has to be almost mandatory, doesn't it? This promotes diversity in builds and resource management capability.
Sustain management, Please add a way to boost recoveries.
Beyond that Im happy to not have sets, helms and mythics. However I dont think its helpful at all to have the need for gear of some kind stripped away. That being said maybe 3 sets one for DPS one for healers and one for tanks that simply buff each classes main stat or add a recovery for that stat