SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

xylena · April 27

The Uninvited wrote: »

I mean, everyone running the meta would make it rougly the same as Vengeance (same loadout), right?

Sorta. There's always a minimum skill threshhold (floor) in any PvP game.

When everyone runs meta like you see in High MMR BGs, you can't win by outbuilding alone on an individual level, but you can win by outbuilding alone on the group comp level. So to equalize from that point you would need everyone in ball groups with identical comps, the game from there would eventually start to look more like mobas or team sports.

The "mass multiplayer" aspect of ESO demands compressing the gap between ceiling and floor not just to account for varying levels of skill and effort, but also to balance randoms vs organized. One way to do this without "dumbing down" the on field action is to reduce the impact of the stat sheet, which lowers the skill ceiling for building, but puts that power into the buttons you press on the field instead (assuming they address whatever combat balance issues remain).

Consider also that if the skill ceiling is too high, then few players will consistently reach it. Baseball hitters see 30% hit success as good. Do ESO gamers see ESO that way? Maybe the small niche of GH does, but Vengeance is aimed at a much wider audience. Games do not need to be as punishing as hitting a Major League baseball to still be skill demanding.

Artisian0001 · April 27

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

[snip]

So... can you 1vX on Vengeance?

I can.
[edited to remove quote]

Any proof or just random claim of something that isn't true like 99% of the stuff you post on the forums?

Vengeance is the lowest skill cap mode of any PvP game I have ever seen. Siege is more effective than any player is. The limit on people it hits is higher, the damage it does is higher, and you can do it from the safest distance, even inside a keep. I have been in vengeance several times and not once have I even seen you killing someone. You always make these claims but any time I have pushed you on anything you just strawman until a thread gets closed.

Vengeance is by far the the least enjoyable PvP mode, and if you decide to go in you are less effective than any other person sieging.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

You are not the majority so please do not represent yourself as such.

Not everything is for everybody so I'm sure you are dissappointed you must be without GH for a time. I'd like a pvp ro;; back to Elsewyr but we all know that isn't happening, so we will have to work with what we have. GH will be back in it cheesy, meta bustedness soon enough

You are the minority. So please do not represent yourself as the majority.

The vast majority of the PvP community will not play vengeance under any circumstances. We will leave the game before playing vengeance again.

We've put in our time and treasure to be able to play GH. Maybe next time they run vengeance they should remove all PvE zones from the game so people like you would have some experience with being treated the same way the PvP community gets treated during vengeance....the perfect name for what ZOS is doing to the PvP community.

Thats my sentiments in a nutshell, they would never take away trials for a week or group dungeons to test a game mode they want to implement, I hate that so much.

The Uninvited wrote: »

DreadKnight wrote: »

For me a huge part of the games is centered around collecting/farming sets and working out build combinations for my enjoyment in Cyrodiil pvp. Vengeance completely destroys that for me and therefore it is not something I enjoy at all. It completely negates the 100's (or 1000's) of hours I've put into the game since launch.

The overall majority do not want it, so please listen to that sentiment and direct those resources to improving Cyrodiil. I always point out that when the new servers were implemented a few years ago now, Cyrodiil (grey host) ran perfectly until updates started coming. Start there.

It's also everytime they reset the server, maybe they should do that more often.

this, and continue to power down healing. As was said earlier, crit damage is ridiculous rn, and I don't see that getting better with the class refresh power ups, and the heal stack nerf currently in place is a decent first step as ballgroups are now getting ran over by zergs eventually, and the lag ends quicker... but it definitely needs to be adjusted further, twice as much ideally.

Then people on both sides of the skill spectrum would have less to complain about, and Zos might even be able to raise the population cap again since GH is easily reaching it right now, too easily.

DeathandDebauchery · April 27

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

You are not the majority so please do not represent yourself as such.

Not everything is for everybody so I'm sure you are dissappointed you must be without GH for a time. I'd like a pvp ro;; back to Elsewyr but we all know that isn't happening, so we will have to work with what we have. GH will be back in it cheesy, meta bustedness soon enough

You are the minority. So please do not represent yourself as the majority.

The vast majority of the PvP community will not play vengeance under any circumstances. We will leave the game before playing vengeance again.

We've put in our time and treasure to be able to play GH. Maybe next time they run vengeance they should remove all PvE zones from the game so people like you would have some experience with being treated the same way the PvP community gets treated during vengeance....the perfect name for what ZOS is doing to the PvP community.

I think this is actually a big part of the problem. Legacy PVPers like yourself see themselves as some golden commodity that ZoS needs to hold on to. They really don't.

MMOs that are on a maintenance lifecycle are held together by new players. New players dont join Grey Host because of the knowledge and skill gap. Vengeance addresses this. You leaving is not a problem for ZoS, they have already gotten plenty of dollars out of you, your Lifetime Value (LTV) as a client is almost completely dried up.

On the other hand, if they can get a new player to lock in for a year, there are thousands of dollars of potential in cosmetics etc that they have never unlocked, but you have. The lifeblood of an MMO is its new players, and Grey Host is completely unfriendly to new players. Vengeance is. It's a simple equation.

Regardless of what you may 'feel' - Vengeance is the right business decision and it is actually fun and accessible (as someone who runs a 500 person guild who is largely casuals, we LOVE vengeance).

You can see this trend in all MMOs, and even in what else ZoS is doing (Solo Dungeons, Making Companions more Appetizing (heart week, xp floor drops), etc. All of these things are trending toward making the game easier and more accessible with optional difficulty (e.g. overland sliders).

BardokRedSnow · April 27

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

DeathandDebauchery · April 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

MorallyBipolar · April 27

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

You are not the majority so please do not represent yourself as such.

Not everything is for everybody so I'm sure you are dissappointed you must be without GH for a time. I'd like a pvp ro;; back to Elsewyr but we all know that isn't happening, so we will have to work with what we have. GH will be back in it cheesy, meta bustedness soon enough

You are the minority. So please do not represent yourself as the majority.

The vast majority of the PvP community will not play vengeance under any circumstances. We will leave the game before playing vengeance again.

We've put in our time and treasure to be able to play GH. Maybe next time they run vengeance they should remove all PvE zones from the game so people like you would have some experience with being treated the same way the PvP community gets treated during vengeance....the perfect name for what ZOS is doing to the PvP community.

I think this is actually a big part of the problem. Legacy PVPers like yourself see themselves as some golden commodity that ZoS needs to hold on to. They really don't.

MMOs that are on a maintenance lifecycle are held together by new players. New players dont join Grey Host because of the knowledge and skill gap. Vengeance addresses this. You leaving is not a problem for ZoS, they have already gotten plenty of dollars out of you, your Lifetime Value (LTV) as a client is almost completely dried up.

On the other hand, if they can get a new player to lock in for a year, there are thousands of dollars of potential in cosmetics etc that they have never unlocked, but you have. The lifeblood of an MMO is its new players, and Grey Host is completely unfriendly to new players. Vengeance is. It's a simple equation.

Regardless of what you may 'feel' - Vengeance is the right business decision and it is actually fun and accessible (as someone who runs a 500 person guild who is largely casuals, we LOVE vengeance).

You can see this trend in all MMOs, and even in what else ZoS is doing (Solo Dungeons, Making Companions more Appetizing (heart week, xp floor drops), etc. All of these things are trending toward making the game easier and more accessible with optional difficulty (e.g. overland sliders).

The problem is too many people expecting to have everything handed to them and to not have to earn anything. Yes, PvP is challenging. That's the point. If you don't want a challenge, there is always PvE.

The fact is it's the legacy players such as myself that spend the most on the game. We have to if we want the latest, greatest gears to compete. It's the veteran legacy players such as myself that are holding the game together, not the casuals who stop by a few times/month and never spend any money.

DeathandDebauchery · April 27

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

The problem is too many people expecting to have everything handed to them and to not have to earn anything. Yes, PvP is challenging. That's the point. If you don't want a challenge, there is always PvE.

The fact is it's the legacy players such as myself that spend the most on the game. We have to if we want the latest, greatest gears to compete. It's the veteran legacy players such as myself that are holding the game together, not the casuals who stop by a few times/month and never spend any money.

There is challenging, and then there is Trifecta. Grey Host is like a newbie doing a Trial Trifecta. It's not like just doing a vet dungeon, or even a vet DLC dungeon. The knowledge floor is insanely high in Grey Host against experienced players. Its not 1 hour of prog to get good. In almost all other vet content, even vet HM content, you can prog it within 2 hours (except vet DLC HMs maybe).

Can you get good at Grey Host in 2 hours? You have to evaluate the difficulty curve against the rest of the game. This is not a small population event like a 4 man or a 12 man, these are hundreds of player events.

That said, y'all got your way, grey host is staying, so I truly don't understand all the tears. They are not removing Grey Host. They are just adding vengeance and removing 3 nearly dead campaigns. Blackreach pop will funnel in to Vengeance and it will be good for both GH and Vengeance.

spartaxoxo · April 27

The Uninvited wrote: »

Let me ask a question to the Vengeance players, who say Vengeance is more about skill and less about builds.

IF (and that's a big IF) everyone, as you proclaim, is running the meta in Gray Host (so essentially running the same sets, combined with the same subclass setup), wouldn't that automatically make Gray Host also about skill?

I mean, everyone running the meta would make it rougly the same as Vengeance (same loadout), right?

Everyone is not running the meta. Everyone knows that. When people say that they mean that people in off-meta, niche, or just plain bad builds can go up against someone who they can't win against because they're in a meta set before either player even does anything. Mistakes in builds are much more brutally punished as a result than mistakes in gameplay.

ETA
In the games where builds are less important (or don't have builds), mistakes in gameplay are more important than mistakes in build. The person with the better setup will usually win but if they make an error, the new person can punish them for that mistake and defeat them. In those games, skill is more important than builds.

hoangdz · April 27

To me, Vengeance is a good concept, but poorly executed. While I do love the fact that lag and the annoying in-combat bug are less problematic here, there are 3 main issues I found with this campaign, and they are unfortunately a deal breaker for me:

1) AoE cap - this turns the campaign into a numbers game where sheer number wins.
2) No skill morphs - I would like to be able to use my stamsorc skills like Crystal Weapon or Bound Armaments, but unfortunately they do not exist.
3) Limited stat manipulation - Like, why can’t I just dump 70% of my max mag into stam, or 80% mag regen into stam regen?

This whole campaign just feels like a zerg campaign to me. Until they address these concerns, I will not be participating in it.

SneaK · April 27

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

The problem is too many people expecting to have everything handed to them and to not have to earn anything. Yes, PvP is challenging. That's the point. If you don't want a challenge, there is always PvE.

The fact is it's the legacy players such as myself that spend the most on the game. We have to if we want the latest, greatest gears to compete. It's the veteran legacy players such as myself that are holding the game together, not the casuals who stop by a few times/month and never spend any money.

There is challenging, and then there is Trifecta. Grey Host is like a newbie doing a Trial Trifecta. It's not like just doing a vet dungeon, or even a vet DLC dungeon. The knowledge floor is insanely high in Grey Host against experienced players. Its not 1 hour of prog to get good. In almost all other vet content, even vet HM content, you can prog it within 2 hours (except vet DLC HMs maybe).

Can you get good at Grey Host in 2 hours? You have to evaluate the difficulty curve against the rest of the game. This is not a small population event like a 4 man or a 12 man, these are hundreds of player events.

You could easily get carried for 2 hours by people in Cyro that know what they’re doing. Zerg surfing 101. So no, some trifecta requiring XYZ DPS to even get invited to is not a true comparison. There is literally nothing stopping anyone from crafting some sets and hopping into PvP. Perhaps, it’s the fact that egos expand far beyond just the sweat lords and even the Care Bears bruise easily when they die to another player. Yes, ESO PvP has a learning curve, it would be very dull if it didn’t (queue in Vengeance). This is a 10+ year old game, to think you’re going to load up for the first time in PvP and kill someone that has been PvPing for 10+ years in a 1v1 is asinine.

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community. You shouldn’t be afraid to type LFG in chat, and you’d be surprised the amount of knowledge you could obtain by even a mid tier crown. I would say every server/region/alliance could use more pug leads. But tbh the overall “noob” views these pug leaders as some elitist scumbag for whatever reason. It’s quite similar to modern day American politics.

All that said, Vengeance isn’t being built to be a safe space for noobs, the quicker they learn that the better off they’ll be.

ceruulean · April 27

The Uninvited wrote: »

Let me ask a question to the Vengeance players, who say Vengeance is more about skill and less about builds.

IF (and that's a big IF) everyone, as you proclaim, is running the meta in Gray Host (so essentially running the same sets, combined with the same subclass setup), wouldn't that automatically make Gray Host also about skill?

I mean, everyone running the meta would make it rougly the same as Vengeance (same loadout), right?

Not everyone runs meta in Greyhost. Of course, when everyone does, and everyone is equal skill, you get stalemates. And that's what has happened. Greyhost is so stale and slow that fights take 10 years, killing a tower *** takes 10 years because of the speed creep. ZoS unbalanced the classes with piecemeal reworks and now DKs are supreme. Fighting others who switch to DKs just ends up in more stalemates. Keeps don't flip, only 1-2 things are lit up at a time, and people afk because there's less newbies to bomb and they're tired of hitting brick walls all the time.

Many people have complained the same about Vengeance, that having to fight 70k HP players is like hitting a brick wall. Personally, I don't see a difference between hitting a brick wall in Vengeance or hitting a brick wall in GH. If you're seeking out equally geared and meta players in Greyhost, it's mostly brick wall experience. Stalemating has always been a thing in ESO.

AD faction switchers decided to end the test on April 26 with a BLK zergfest. 1.3k+ AD victories vs. EP and random DC who were a blip in the sea. People were so desperate to get the giant AP defense tick. I haven't seen anything like that on Greyhost.

Also the builds in Vengeance are not equal. You can pick terrible perks, loadouts, or waste skill slots and be hugely ineffective. There are people I kill in 5 seconds and there are people who kill me in 5 seconds. We will never know unless we run literally the same exact build. Anyway, equalizing the field is dependent on players to ban or restrict unfair combos, and you will notice certain groups develop a code of ethics and self-restrictions, like NB that never slot cloak out of principle, because video game devs can never achieve perfect balance.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

DeathandDebauchery · April 27

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 27

Our Guilds already miss Vengeance. A lot of us went. And we had fun there. With the exception of me alone, none of those people will be in GH, BG or IC since it's over.

The current state of PvP is not going to bring new (when I say new, I mean people who have been playing the game for years and already quit PvP and players who have been playing the game for a shorter while but wont PvP because they had an awful experience too) players. And its not going to retain new players.

Vengeance has, does and will. Every time i go into BG now, I ask people if they think the Subclassing meta builds are fun or fair. I ask them if the conditions there make them want to return. I ask them if they think Subclassing in general is fair. This needs to be addressed. And not on a PC test server with mostly the elite, but through actual feedback on consoles and from actual players in all walks of the game.

Having the Vengeance campaign this way is a better attempt at doing that very thing.

SneaK · April 27

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

This makes zero sense. I basically said a new PvPer should have an open mind and not view their own alliance as the bad guy, and that every alliance needs more mentorship through pug leaders. But you can keep pushing this strange boogeyman agenda I guess, have fun out there.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

This seems to be the crux of the issue here. PvP already is pretty niche compared to the rest of the community. Maybe not as small or large as the trials trifecta side of it, no idea really their population, but enough people here have smugly commented on how small greyhost's community is compared to the rest of the eso community.

In which case, you should treat it specifically as the same as high end trial players. I would not go to that community and say I should be trifecta ready at level 10. No idea why this is different for greyhost specifically, especially when there are other campaigns that are more forgiving than ours available to you already.

None of this would have been such an issue if 1. Zos didn't repeatedly shut down the campaigns for Vengeance, and 2. state it was just a test to fix greyhost lag, then 3. Give up on greyhost and say they cant fix it, and were switching focus to Vengeance, and that also, while they would "rather keep both greyhost and vengeance" that making it only vengeance was a possibility.

^This was a massive mismanagement of trust and transparency. That's why our side of the community is tilted, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% that if any of the other communities had to put up with this sort of thing and periodic tests that take away your content for experimental ones, y'all would definitely be just as salty about the whole thing.

SneaK · April 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

This seems to be the crux of the issue here. PvP already is pretty niche compared to the rest of the community. Maybe not as small or large as the trials trifecta side of it, no idea really their population, but enough people here have smugly commented on how small greyhost's community is compared to the rest of the eso community.

In which case, you should treat it specifically as the same as high end trial players. I would not go to that community and say I should be trifecta ready at level 10. No idea why this is different for greyhost specifically, especially when there are other campaigns that are more forgiving than ours available to you already.

None of this would have been such an issue if 1. Zos didn't repeatedly shut down the campaigns for Vengeance, and 2. state it was just a test to fix greyhost lag, then 3. Give up on greyhost and say they cant fix it, and were switching focus to Vengeance, and that also, while they would "rather keep both greyhost and vengeance" that making it only vengeance was a possibility.

^This was a massive mismanagement of trust and transparency. That's why our side of the community is tilted, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% that if any of the other communities had to put up with this sort of thing and periodic tests that take away your content for experimental ones, y'all would definitely be just as salty about the whole thing.

No, GH is not the same as some trifecta. There is nothing wrong with asking to group even at level 10. More often than not a PUG will grab you and all of a sudden, you’re pvping. That is how it was 10+ years ago too, when we were all new. You can’t do that with a trifecta, you’d get laughed at and kicked, hell the game wouldn’t even let you queue in at level 10.

lostineternity · April 27

People are happy that vengeance is over

BardokRedSnow · April 27

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

This seems to be the crux of the issue here. PvP already is pretty niche compared to the rest of the community. Maybe not as small or large as the trials trifecta side of it, no idea really their population, but enough people here have smugly commented on how small greyhost's community is compared to the rest of the eso community.

In which case, you should treat it specifically as the same as high end trial players. I would not go to that community and say I should be trifecta ready at level 10. No idea why this is different for greyhost specifically, especially when there are other campaigns that are more forgiving than ours available to you already.

None of this would have been such an issue if 1. Zos didn't repeatedly shut down the campaigns for Vengeance, and 2. state it was just a test to fix greyhost lag, then 3. Give up on greyhost and say they cant fix it, and were switching focus to Vengeance, and that also, while they would "rather keep both greyhost and vengeance" that making it only vengeance was a possibility.

^This was a massive mismanagement of trust and transparency. That's why our side of the community is tilted, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% that if any of the other communities had to put up with this sort of thing and periodic tests that take away your content for experimental ones, y'all would definitely be just as salty about the whole thing.

No, GH is not the same as some trifecta. There is nothing wrong with asking to group even at level 10. More often than not a PUG will grab you and all of a sudden, you’re pvping. That is how it was 10+ years ago too, when we were all new. You can’t do that with a trifecta, you’d get laughed at and kicked, hell the game wouldn’t even let you queue in a it at level 10.

We can agree to disagree there, since if you join greyhost at level 10 even if you do get picked up by someone, you're gonna have a bad time. You'll be VD bait and not much else, or only repairing walls etc.

That said if I took this in good faith and went with the logic, it would show that while PvErs say GH is gatekeeping content from the majority of players because they can't be great at it instantly, the PvE end game community is even harsher than that, which I'd obviously agree with. And yet its not their content being replaced for tests, which I already know how you feel about that from the vengeance for dungeons threads. Which I 100 percent support lol.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

lostineternity wrote: »

People are happy that vengeance is over

Oh dang, servers back up already sweet, see yall later lol

SneaK · April 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

This seems to be the crux of the issue here. PvP already is pretty niche compared to the rest of the community. Maybe not as small or large as the trials trifecta side of it, no idea really their population, but enough people here have smugly commented on how small greyhost's community is compared to the rest of the eso community.

In which case, you should treat it specifically as the same as high end trial players. I would not go to that community and say I should be trifecta ready at level 10. No idea why this is different for greyhost specifically, especially when there are other campaigns that are more forgiving than ours available to you already.

None of this would have been such an issue if 1. Zos didn't repeatedly shut down the campaigns for Vengeance, and 2. state it was just a test to fix greyhost lag, then 3. Give up on greyhost and say they cant fix it, and were switching focus to Vengeance, and that also, while they would "rather keep both greyhost and vengeance" that making it only vengeance was a possibility.

^This was a massive mismanagement of trust and transparency. That's why our side of the community is tilted, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% that if any of the other communities had to put up with this sort of thing and periodic tests that take away your content for experimental ones, y'all would definitely be just as salty about the whole thing.

No, GH is not the same as some trifecta. There is nothing wrong with asking to group even at level 10. More often than not a PUG will grab you and all of a sudden, you’re pvping. That is how it was 10+ years ago too, when we were all new. You can’t do that with a trifecta, you’d get laughed at and kicked, hell the game wouldn’t even let you queue in a it at level 10.

We can agree to disagree there, since if you join greyhost at level 10 even if you do get picked up by someone, you're gonna have a bad time. You'll be VD bait and not much else, or only repairing walls etc.

That said if I took this in good faith and went with the logic, it would show that while PvErs say GH is gatekeeping content from the majority of players because they can't be great at it instantly, the PvE end game community is even harsher than that, which I'd obviously agree with. And yet its not their content being replaced for tests, which I already know how you feel about that from the vengeance for dungeons threads. Which I 100 percent support lol.

By definition you can, it’s a persistent PvP zone built for group warfare. The part of the conversation missing is where I said every server/alliance could use more pug leads. No, you can’t X in chat and expect to run with the 1vXers. But you can get picked up by Zerg leaders who really do appreciate bodies running seige or rezzing. That’s how you learn. You cannot do this in trials or PvE. The community has dreamed up some barrier to entry in PvP. It does not exist outside of reaching level 10. You can be CP 3600 and still die, if we think dying is the barrier to entry that is false and people need to get over it.

MincMincMinc · April 27

hoangdz wrote: »

To me, Vengeance is a good concept, but poorly executed. While I do love the fact that lag and the annoying in-combat bug are less problematic here, there are 3 main issues I found with this campaign, and they are unfortunately a deal breaker for me:

1) AoE cap - this turns the campaign into a numbers game where sheer number wins.
2) No skill morphs - I would like to be able to use my stamsorc skills like Crystal Weapon or Bound Armaments, but unfortunately they do not exist.
3) Limited stat manipulation - Like, why can’t I just dump 70% of my max mag into stam, or 80% mag regen into stam regen?

This whole campaign just feels like a zerg campaign to me. Until they address these concerns, I will not be participating in it.

@hoangdz They messed around with the AOE caps this test and it was drastically for the better. The campaign most days PCNA was nearing pop lock for EP/AD and sometimes DC with no lag or fps issues on my end. 1vX was very much so possible now. Sorc is just not setup for 1vX because of its sustain issues (zos needs to make sustain tools more worthwhile in vengeance), however DK can easily tank 8+ enemies in vengeance if setup right and still close out kills.

Skill morphs should certainly be introduced. However I think zos needs to keep it performative in mind and easy to code. For instance Streak does the stun at the final location, make Ball stun at the starting location. Dizzy does a short cast spammable damage hit, make wrecking blow do a long cast high damage hit. Quite literally they can make drastically different playstyles by copy and pasting their current skill code and tweaking one or two of the attributes.

Stats are another thing, where I think they can slowly introduce systems like mundus, attributes, food and slowly reduce the base stats down to compensate. This way not everyone is force to run a mag based toon.

Gear I could see zos implementing the noproc sets as a start into a vengeance stickerbook. IMO they should just keep the pve and pvp systems separated because people like the quick login and teleport automatically swapping you to vengeance setups. Eventually they could turn all the perks they made into item sets within the vengeance UI based stickerbook item sets. This system could also make AP more useful for purchasing new sets or changing traits or golding gear out within the stickerbook.

Ill have to discord you when the next one is around so we can duo/trio Curi and I were having a blast. I know on GH we can duo and be idiots messing with ballgroups or big zergs and get away with it, personally I just dont expect to do the same against 200+ player groups in a more balanced environment.

ZOS_Hadeostry · April 27

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

dcrush · April 28

Since this was supposedly a test, there should be an official thread to give feedback about the test… right? I can’t find it but maybe I’m blind.

fizzybeef · April 28

dcrush wrote: »

Since this was supposedly a test, there should be an official thread to give feedback about the test… right? I can’t find it but maybe I’m blind.

Because it’s a UNWANTED and unpopular game mode.
The feedback would be a desaster

BradTheNord · April 28

Vengeance is here because of the devs lack of effort in cyro over the last 10 years so now the players have to do the testing etc it’s messed up when you think about it. We became the test dummies …..

The Uninvited · April 28

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Let me ask a question to the Vengeance players, who say Vengeance is more about skill and less about builds.

IF (and that's a big IF) everyone, as you proclaim, is running the meta in Gray Host (so essentially running the same sets, combined with the same subclass setup), wouldn't that automatically make Gray Host also about skill?

I mean, everyone running the meta would make it rougly the same as Vengeance (same loadout), right?

Everyone is not running the meta. Everyone knows that. When people say that they mean that people in off-meta, niche, or just plain bad builds can go up against someone who they can't win against because they're in a meta set before either player even does anything. Mistakes in builds are much more brutally punished as a result than mistakes in gameplay.

ETA
In the games where builds are less important (or don't have builds), mistakes in gameplay are more important than mistakes in build. The person with the better setup will usually win but if they make an error, the new person can punish them for that mistake and defeat them. In those games, skill is more important than builds.

And that's why I asked the question. You're right, not everyone is running the meta. Our whole guild is not running the meta. Still, we'd rather play Gray Host than watered down Vengeance.

Like I said somewhere earlier, for me there's only 2 things that are a plague on Gray Host. One is critical damage (way too high), the other one is healstacking.

Major_Mangle · April 28

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

Literally the most fundamental concept of an MMO is to interact with other players. It's how I learned, by talking and playing with others. As I continued to play PvP I came in contact with more and more players, I started to try new type of "playstyles" (BGs, small-scale, ballgroup etc etc) and learned more and improved the way I PvP. Literally every single time I felt I got better at PvP was because I interacted and talked to other people who knew more than me.

It's not bad design because you might dislike it, that's not how that definition works.

Sneak is 100% correct that the absence of community teaching people is astonishing these days. They exist sure, but not to the same extent they did in the earlier days of ESO.

Edit: I personally think sub 50 PvP should straight up be removed from the game. Only allow PvP once you hit lvl 50 (which takes a few hours at most if you want to). Sub 50 lost its purpose a long time ago and is a waste of server space imo.

Arrow312 · April 28

Major_Mangle wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

What a new type of player really needs, is a better community, and a better outlook on their community.

That's just bad game design in a nutshell. That approach is fine for extremely niche content (like Trifectas) but that mindset is terrible for something you can do at level 10. This is peak PvP player privilege and exactly why Vengeance needs to exist.

Literally the most fundamental concept of an MMO is to interact with other players. It's how I learned, by talking and playing with others. As I continued to play PvP I came in contact with more and more players, I started to try new type of "playstyles" (BGs, small-scale, ballgroup etc etc) and learned more and improved the way I PvP. Literally every single time I felt I got better at PvP was because I interacted and talked to other people who knew more than me.

It's not bad design because you might dislike it, that's not how that definition works.

Sneak is 100% correct that the absence of community teaching people is astonishing these days. They exist sure, but not to the same extent they did in the earlier days of ESO.

why should i help someone when the second sentence is i dont change my build. I copy and paste it from YT it is a good build...you hear this 2-3 times and then give up and dont help anymore.