Rant time, what about Vampires?

Radiate77 · April 24

Okay. I’m tired. Tired of my favorite spec being absolutely useless in this game outside of a few niché scenarios. I mean very niché.

On top of that; this has been the WORST patch in the history of ESO for Vampire. Everybody is playing a Dragonknight because they do a ridiculous amount of damage… FLAME DAMAGE.

What about Vampires?

Pour one out for us I guess; I can’t even convince my girlfriend to log into the game because her favorite activity, PvP, is completely unplayable for her.

You can’t outskill a roll catch leap from an unblockable fossilize, you can’t react to the Molten Whip slapping for more than 10k each hit, and if you try to build defensive; running mitigation, they’ll just pop Corrosive which now deals FLAME DAMAGE if you somehow miraculously survive the leap combo.

What are we supposed to do? Run 50k health?
Undeath was nerfed patches ago… great. It would have been really useful this patch.

It’s bad enough we have only 2 out of 6 skills with universal use; Eviscerate & Blood Scion. Everything else is just a worse version of something else! Why is the Fighter’s Guild rune just a better version of Mesmerize?

I’m tired of my favorite things in this game, Necromancy, Vampirism, and Conjuration being an abstract joke, and a second thought entirely.

How is it that nobody in the room when proposing Dragonknight first for rework, had asked what about Vampires?

Emeratis · April 24

Vampire is long overdue for a proper rework. For me, a lot of what I enjoyed about vampire got ruined with the Greymoor rework that we didn't ask for. What few perks the rework gave got heavily nerfed over time and now vampire is in a sorry state outside of niche situations that benefit none of my four vampires.

On top of that, vampire has had visual pain points since launch where dark skinned/furred/scaled characters are whitewashed and especially for elven vampires their eyes are replaced with a generic human model which makes them look weird without cosmetic fixes.

I also don't know the scope of this but it would be cool if we could choose our vampire strain and have characters that have at least slight differences based on that. I personally have never liked vampire lord but I love Keerilth vampires and their mistweaving abilities. If game/quest wise we are turned by Lamae Bal, the first vampire, it would be cool if the eso vampire line could be more representative of all vampire lines and not just a select few since in most vampire media the closer to the source a vampire is the stronger and more versatile they are. It would also help for those who want to rp different vampire strains feeling they are getting the vampire fantasy they want since unlike lycanthropy we don't have different werebeast forms and differences for vampires are more ability related. Some vampire strains could be done via skill style flavor like turning vampire lord into the old batswarm without the morph and/or giving a mist version for Keerilth.

As for combat, it'd just be nice for vampire to feel more worth it again. I have tank, healer, and dps vampires and for pve the drawbacks far outweigh any benefit compared to the original vampire. I know it has more uses in pvp but I'm not pvping much on my vampires lately.

BardokRedSnow · April 24

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

Radiate77 · April 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

Radiate77 · April 24

Emeratis wrote: »

Vampire is long overdue for a proper rework. For me, a lot of what I enjoyed about vampire got ruined with the Greymoor rework that we didn't ask for. What few perks the rework gave got heavily nerfed over time and now vampire is in a sorry state outside of niche situations that benefit none of my four vampires.

On top of that, vampire has had visual pain points since launch where dark skinned/furred/scaled characters are whitewashed and especially for elven vampires their eyes are replaced with a generic human model which makes them look weird without cosmetic fixes.

I also don't know the scope of this but it would be cool if we could choose our vampire strain and have characters that have at least slight differences based on that. I personally have never liked vampire lord but I love Keerilth vampires and their mistweaving abilities. If game/quest wise we are turned by Lamae Bal, the first vampire, it would be cool if the eso vampire line could be more representative of all vampire lines and not just a select few since in most vampire media the closer to the source a vampire is the stronger and more versatile they are. It would also help for those who want to rp different vampire strains feeling they are getting the vampire fantasy they want since unlike lycanthropy we don't have different werebeast forms and differences for vampires are more ability related. Some vampire strains could be done via skill style flavor like turning vampire lord into the old batswarm without the morph and/or giving a mist version for Keerilth.

As for combat, it'd just be nice for vampire to feel more worth it again. I have tank, healer, and dps vampires and for pve the drawbacks far outweigh any benefit compared to the original vampire. I know it has more uses in pvp but I'm not pvping much on my vampires lately.

And I agree 100% to this, great suggestions.

Not a fan of the ugly transformation, I want old Bat Swarm back. 😭

BardokRedSnow · April 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

It absolutely has been for years in PvP, I played as a DK Nord and had to fight at a disadvantage against people running pariah with undeath and vampirism for a long time because I couldn't sustain it with the cost increase like bretons and imperials could. This especially hurt when blood cloud was good pre nerf. 1vX dk ran that on mag dks all the time and it was toxic lol.

Yall were eating good for a while, seems you just missed the party.

Radiate77 · April 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

It absolutely has been for years in PvP, I played as a DK Nord and had to fight at a disadvantage against people running pariah with undeath and vampirism for a long time because I couldn't sustain it with the cost increase like bretons and imperials could. This especially hurt when blood cloud was good pre nerf. 1vX dk ran that on mag dks all the time and it was toxic lol.

Yall were eating good for a while, seems you just missed the party.

You keep bringing up Undeath, what Vampire skills were your opponent using?

Mist Form? 1 active skill out of 6?

BardokRedSnow · April 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

It absolutely has been for years in PvP, I played as a DK Nord and had to fight at a disadvantage against people running pariah with undeath and vampirism for a long time because I couldn't sustain it with the cost increase like bretons and imperials could. This especially hurt when blood cloud was good pre nerf. 1vX dk ran that on mag dks all the time and it was toxic lol.

Yall were eating good for a while, seems you just missed the party.

You keep bringing up Undeath, what Vampire skills were your opponent using?

Mist Form? 1 active skill out of 6?

I never play vampire so couldn't tell ya all the skills they were using on their bar, nor do I care to, mist form and the passive undeath carried vampirism alone, especially undeath enough that it alone made being a vampire meta for many pvp builds for a long time.

You type in undeath and mist form in the search function youll see how long players were complaining about it. Im not saying you shouldn't get your vampire rework, my duo loved being a vampire and misses it. I'm just saying, one patch won't kill you.

Morvan · April 24

I don't really miss Vamp when it was used purely for passives, so good riddance to Undeath. They did say they were not satisfied with the passive and would work with it, it must be 2 years by now, huh?

For me, their entire kit needs to synergize, Vampire should be a thing you run to actively use the skills, not for its passive potential. The issue is, most of its skills now suck after the nerfs over the years.

They do definitely need a refresh though, maybe not a complete one with new visuals, but at least a decent overhaul. Something I was very fond of was the risky gameplay we had with the old Frenzy, hopefully they can bring something like that back, hurting yourself to deal more damage was a concept I found really cool.

KingArthasMenethil · April 24

I'll focus on visuals at the moment.

Vampire Stages

At the moment current Vampire stages don't work all that well in the sense of it applying a white texture and human eyes to races. Can cause whitewashing depending on certain races. I don't think the visuals of Vampire stages have been touched since release?

Stage 1 honestly should hide Vampire appearances. ESO has made it a common Vampire ability so it would make sense that it would hide the appearance (Verandis during the Reach when talking of Lady Belain). Stages 2-4 should have the Vampire visuals on the character model hopefully with fangs.

Vampire Form.
I know some people really don't like the Blood Scions visuals and would much prefer to look like the usual Vampire Lords you see with other Vampires. Could be an option for skill style like people are going to want different Were-creatures for Werewolf.

KingArthasMenethil · April 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

Vampire has been meta though it's more people using it for the undeath buff. Though I think I was one of the few people who actually used a Vampire ability in PvE (DK tank was using Bat swarm as a cheap panic ult though I can't remember if Imperials had cheaper abilities then)

PvP definitely had people running bat swarm for years since release.

Radiate77 · April 24

That’s like saying we were in a Werewolf meta the first few years because you got Stamina Recovery just for being “cursed”.

Playing a Vampire and being a Vampire are two different things. Exploiting a passive that shouldn’t have worked for you in the first place as someone not playing a Vampire, does not mean that people who played Vampire were playing a meta spec.

SwordOfSagas · April 24

Werewolf has waited longer than vampire to get an overhaul, it will happen maybe in another 10 years

tomofhyrule · April 24

Remember that they are still in the middle of reworks, and have some things they didn’t even mention at first.

We only know the Class schedule. Werewolf is included because 1) it replaces all skills with exclusively werewolf skills so it essentially functions as a Class in itself, and 2) there is a werewolf theme in the TG line so it’s timely.

But the first we heard about the 2H rework was when they dropped it on PTS. That does still leave 5 other weapon types that they’re likely to rework, not to mention the other common basegame single skill lines of MG, FG, Undaunted, and yes, Vampire.

Radiate77 · April 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Remember that they are still in the middle of reworks, and have some things they didn’t even mention at first.

We only know the Class schedule. Werewolf is included because 1) it replaces all skills with exclusively werewolf skills so it essentially functions as a Class in itself, and 2) there is a werewolf theme in the TG line so it’s timely.

But the first we heard about the 2H rework was when they dropped it on PTS. That does still leave 5 other weapon types that they’re likely to rework, not to mention the other common basegame single skill lines of MG, FG, Undaunted, and yes, Vampire.

You bring up a good point.

None of us know if this is going to take up a quarterly slot that would have been reserved for an actual class. If it does, how late back into these reworks are we looking?

And this idea that it’s just 1 patch, falls apart when you consider this is yet another DK patch coming up with the rare werewolf appearance, the update after will be DK and Warden, then DK Warden and Sorc. It’s not going anywhere.

What are we expected to do in the meanwhile? Just take advantage of the free curse removal and wring our hands out and be done with it?

Vampire playstyles cannot exist in this game currently, outside of ganking, and even that has better options.

Radiate77 · April 25

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Werewolf has waited longer than vampire to get an overhaul, it will happen maybe in another 10 years

I hope not.

Werewolf has been in a better spot than Vampire forever. I can’t think of a single time where someone using all of the Vampire skills on a build simultaneously, yielded better results than someone in Wolf form using all of theirs.

If you slot all 5 Vampire skills + ultimate, there is not one area content that you will excel at. We have too many dead skills, and it has been that way for a very long time. 😔

SwordOfSagas · April 25

Radiate77 wrote: »

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Werewolf has waited longer than vampire to get an overhaul, it will happen maybe in another 10 years

I hope not.

Werewolf has been in a better spot than Vampire forever. I can’t think of a single time where someone using all of the Vampire skills on a build simultaneously, yielded better results than someone in Wolf form using all of theirs.

If you slot all 5 Vampire skills + ultimate, there is not one area content that you will excel at. We have too many dead skills, and it has been that way for a very long time. 😔

That is what's unique about vampires though, you don't have to be in scion form to use the skills.

YandereGirlfriend · April 25

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

Vampire was meta for both PvE and PvP for long stretches of the game's life. It not being meta is more of a recent anomaly.

But your last point is completely bang-on: people took it for the OP passives that were straight upgrades versus being mortal and NOT for actually using vampire skills. Which is a complete inversion of why folk should be taking the curse.

In a rework, we simply need better skills for vampire. I don't really care that much about the passives. Give us fun and thematic reasons to embrace the curse. And changing actual gameplay through unique and powerful skills is the most direct method to achieve that.

Toanis · April 25

Emeratis wrote: »

Vampire is long overdue for a proper rework. For me, a lot of what I enjoyed about vampire got ruined with the Greymoor rework that we didn't ask for. What few perks the rework gave got heavily nerfed over time and now vampire is in a sorry state outside of niche situations that benefit none of my four vampires.

Thing is, people did ask for changes, very loudly so, here in these forums.

Old-school vampirism was seen as mandatory for Magicka classes and ruined character identity (sound familiar?)
Everyone being a vampire completely ruined the roleplay aspect for those who got their vampirism fix here, after the 2010's vampire boom in movies and tv had come to an end.

Now vampirism is reduced to either a costly stealth speed boost or full dedicated vampire (i.e .worse werewolf), and the main roleplay aspect supported by the game is frenzied bloodfiend. But at least it's rare - careful what you wish for.

Having glowy magic tattoos on a Werewolf is about to ruin their roleplay aspect for me, and I doubt the usefulness in challenging gameplay will improve. Should they also add penalties out of werewolf form, I will cure my werewolves.

coop500 · April 25

Vampire is defo due for a new rework, but please lets not pretend it was NEVER good. It had it's time where it was basically expected in PvE too because free stats. Thankfully that time passed as well, meanwhile werewolf has NEVER been meta in PvE and only had a short time where it dominated in PvP Battlegrounds.

Let werewolf have this one, just ONCE.

RebornV3x · April 25

If they just revert the Vampire skills to around the Greymoor Patch would probably fix most problems since that was the last time Vamp was sort of in the meta.

Radiate77 · April 25

Once again, taking advantage of 1 broken Passive, or 1 broken Skill from Vampire on an otherwise meta build, does not mean playing a Vampire was meta.

Focus on the distinction here…

Being vs Playing

-Being a Vampire means you invest nothing into the playstyle, you might throw on one skill just to take advantage of an overperforming synergy.

-Playing a Vampire means using multiple vampire skills, and embodying the archetype.

In the past it has been advantageous to be a Vampire, yet we have never seen playing one as anything other than horrible. We should never have had a situation where people benefit more from not using their skills than by doing so.

Orbital78 · April 25

I miss the old mist form, but I could care less about the undeath passive tbh. It would be nice for the skill line to be more than a few passives. What else is it really used for? SP/WD boosting from passives, and niche support ulti gen?

Toanis · April 25

There aren't many vampires in fiction that are "embodying being a vampire" to the point of being little else. Even Dracula is more defined by his charisma and the melancholy that comes with immortality than his thirst for blood. Once the vampires are the protagonists, from Blade to Underworld, from Buffy to Vampire Diaries, their vampirism just enhances their use of mundane means to a supernatural level.

Sure, in a multiplayer setting there needs to be some balance. Disabling racial passives when you become a vampire would be okay and thematically fitting, as would be a healing debuff for anything other than drinking blood. Making non-vampire skills more and more expensive to use is the wrong way. No vampire ever became a more sluggish swordsman after taking a bite. Dropping your weapon and going full feral when embracing your nature is the domain of the werewolf.

Stravokov · April 25

This has honestly been one of the biggest letdowns for me and my brother. We’ve been playing The Elder Scrolls Online since launch, and we turned our characters into vampires within the first week. We’ve stuck through all the changes over the years, but the current version of vampirism is easily the worst it’s ever been.

Aside from Eviscerate, the skill line just feels bad. It doesn’t feel strong or fun, it feels like you’re handicapping yourself on purpose. Instead of playing as a powerful, bloodthirsty vampire, it feels like you’re taking a nerf just to keep the theme.

Vampirism should feel strong, dangerous, and actually useful. Right now it feels clunky, limited, and not worth using, especially with only two skill bars to work with. There’s no real flow or payoff to it.

I really hope the ZOS team takes another look at vampirism, the same way they’ve clearly put effort into improving werewolves. Vampires should feel just as good to play. Right now, they just don’t.

Radiate77 · April 25

Stravokov wrote: »

This has honestly been one of the biggest letdowns for me and my brother. We’ve been playing The Elder Scrolls Online since launch, and we turned our characters into vampires within the first week. We’ve stuck through all the changes over the years, but the current version of vampirism is easily the worst it’s ever been.

Aside from Eviscerate, the skill line just feels bad. It doesn’t feel strong or fun, it feels like you’re handicapping yourself on purpose. Instead of playing as a powerful, bloodthirsty vampire, it feels like you’re taking a nerf just to keep the theme.

Vampirism should feel strong, dangerous, and actually useful. Right now it feels clunky, limited, and not worth using, especially with only two skill bars to work with. There’s no real flow or payoff to it.

I really hope the ZOS team takes another look at vampirism, the same way they’ve clearly put effort into improving werewolves. Vampires should feel just as good to play. Right now, they just don’t.

I wish I could give you an Agree, Insightful, and an Awesome. This 100%.

We are the lowest we’ve ever been, and it’s exhausting. I’ve never known Vampirism to be such a death sentence, as it has been Update 49, and how it will be Update 50, and Update 51.

I don’t want to cure my Vampirism, yet it feels like we’re being told to.

YandereGirlfriend · April 25

IMO, the situation with the vampire active abilities is a perfect intersection of the issues that also plague the Sorcerer and Warden classes.

Like Sorcerers, the line is overburdened with utility abilities while being exceedingly light on actual substance; and like Wardens, the line has a plethora of nearly duplicative morphs, a situation of, "What if these morphs did the exact same thing but with a tiny, meaningless tweak?"

There simply are not enough abilities that do "bread and butter" useful things for a class, the sorts of things that account for like 75% of GCDs in gameplay for most normal classes. The closest that any of the abilities comes is the melee spammable but even there we fall into the duplicative morph trap.

Completely missing from the kit:

Ranged spammable
Sticky DOT
Self-heal
Ally-heal
HOT
Access to common named buffs

I would gladly trade any of the redundant Stun, gap-close, spammable, siphon (seriously, how are one of these morphs NOT a sticky HOT or a ranged spammable?!) or frenzy morphs for any or all of these.

On a random ability note, I would love to see the gap-closing aspect of Mist Form turned into like a short-range and low-cost version of Streak (or perhaps an alternative "Magicka Dodge-Roll"), perhaps capped at 6 or 7 meters (Streak is 15 meters for comparison). The gameplay would be using this short-range teleport to phase to the flanks of enemies in order to backstab or to evade incoming damage. We see that sort of short-range hyper-mobility and elusiveness embodied in vampire media constantly and the current, super clunky Mist Form does not at all hit the mark.

Radiate77 · May 4

Another night of getting hunted by packs of Dragonknights, and we’re supposed to deal with this until when exactly?…

moo_2021 · May 4

Can we reduce the fire damage penalty? It wouldn't fit the lore but the balance is quite ridiculous that anyone happening to be using fire gains a lot of advantage without specifically building to target vampires.

Radiate77 · May 4

moo_2021 wrote: »

Can we reduce the fire damage penalty? It wouldn't fit the lore but the balance is quite ridiculous that anyone happening to be using fire gains a lot of advantage without specifically building to target vampires.

Right; especially considering that these same Dragonknights are about to get Class Mastery Passives too.