Vengeance Skills Refresh

aetherix8 · April 22

As classes get reworked, it might be necessary to revisit some Vengeance skills.

Dragonknight refresh is complete and the class finally has major expedition in its kit. I went back to pure DK just to be forced to subclass again in Vengeance, because Veng Wings are useless without major expedition.

Whenever you add something to a class that was not a part of its kit before, could you please review Vengeance skills to make sure that they are consistent with the refresh? Thank you.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

MincMincMinc · April 22

aetherix8 wrote: »

As classes get reworked, it might be necessary to revisit some Vengeance skills.

Dragonknight refresh is complete and the class finally has major expedition in its kit. I went back to pure DK just to be forced to subclass again in Vengeance, because Veng Wings are useless without major expedition.

Whenever you add something to a class that was not a part of its kit before, could you please review Vengeance skills to make sure that they are consistent with the refresh? Thank you.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Well the point of veng is to not balloon every skill with more and more random tacked on buffs. That being said they already set the precedent on some veng skills.

On sorc's lightning form it has a random 3 player AOE that does next to no damage. No reason to have that, just reduce its cost as compensation or increase the resolve duration.

Sorc surge skill also is overly complicated not only does it do a heal, but it also has a cooldown effect AND it also has a slotted buff effect. Again its an over complication for what should be a "base" skill.

Maybe if they added morphs you could see a tacked on buff. However I would think it would be more performative if they made the morphs unique active wise instead of ballooning bloat on every skill. For instance base bolt escape should just move you. Streak should stun within 5m aoe of the final location. Ball of lightning should stun 5m at the starting location. A change so simple, but creates two drastically different playstyles.

aetherix8 · April 22

There are several skills that have more than one effect, e.g., NB's Blur (Major Resolve and Minor Evasion) and Cripple (deals damage and reduces movement speed), or Warden's Betty (Minor Berserk and removes one negative effect). DK has Core of Flame and Talons, while Templar only has single-effect skills. Sorcerer has three such skills (Mines, Surge and Lightning Form). I didn't check Necro and Arcanist, but so far it doesn't look very well balanced class-wise, so perhaps further bloating is inevitable after all. Performance-wise, more testing by adding more skill lines or gear should have taken place before making Veng permanent. It still feels unfinished, and I don't think ZOS has ever reached the breaking point of server load.

MincMincMinc · April 22

aetherix8 wrote: »

There are several skills that have more than one effect, e.g., NB's Blur (Major Resolve and Minor Evasion) and Cripple (deals damage and reduces movement speed), or Warden's Betty (Minor Berserk and removes one negative effect). DK has Core of Flame and Talons, while Templar only has single-effect skills. Sorcerer has three such skills (Mines, Surge and Lightning Form). I didn't check Necro and Arcanist, but so far it doesn't look very well balanced class-wise, so perhaps further bloating is inevitable after all. Performance-wise, more testing by adding more skill lines or gear should have taken place before making Veng permanent. It still feels unfinished, and I don't think ZOS has ever reached the breaking point of server load.

Yeah IMO they really should take the test and start re-enabling more major systems. Personally I would want to see what happens if they introduce nonproc gear sets back. Basic nonproc build elements like armor weights, mundus, armor enchants, traits. Should all be fairly performative. Just like the perk system, most of these just affect your base character sheet.

Its the Proc event functions that I think can cause the runaway lag. Things like weapon enchants, poison procs, EVERY TICK rolling the dice on status effects, item procs(bloodspawn checking every tick), passive procs(burning light), skill procs(think dk armor reflect per tick)............Long time ago they did the noproc item set test, but out of a live build item procs are maybe 4 proc effects out of like 30-40+ that may be on your build.

Now its not to say all proc effects are evil, but like a clever alch stat change proc is certainly going to be 1000x more performative than rolling the dice on status effects and weapon poisons every tick that they themselves will tick and do debuffs...... Next time in pvp just look at your cmx damage/debuff recap and realize how many random little effects there are that you do which are probably insignificant, yet strain the server. Even look at healing. Ill have 15-20 effects listed.....but vigor does ~30%, Critsurge does ~30%, and healing soul does ~30% Yet my other 15 or so effects are contributing the same if not more lag doing their "special effects"

aetherix8 · April 23

@MincMincMinc

I'm kind of divided on gear. On the one hand, effectively combining item sets is an essential part of the game, so if veng is to be a point of entry for new players, then this important part is missing. On the other hand, players can learn using item sets while PvEing, and it doesn't take very long to understand the differences between PvE and PvP gear setups (traits, enchants, etc.). I think perks can mimic flat stat item sets fairly effectively, given there are enough of them (right now there are too few options available).

Creating veng versions of item sets translates into an extra workload at a time when ZOS is developing a new one-keep map. Personally, I would prefer if devs finish coding veng skills first, like adding Psijic Guild with RaT giving Major Expedition, and enabling mundus effects, before working on bigger systems like gear.

MincMincMinc · April 23

aetherix8 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc

I'm kind of divided on gear. On the one hand, effectively combining item sets is an essential part of the game, so if veng is to be a point of entry for new players, then this important part is missing. On the other hand, players can learn using item sets while PvEing, and it doesn't take very long to understand the differences between PvE and PvP gear setups (traits, enchants, etc.). I think perks can mimic flat stat item sets fairly effectively, given there are enough of them (right now there are too few options available).

Creating veng versions of item sets translates into an extra workload at a time when ZOS is developing a new one-keep map. Personally, I would prefer if devs finish coding veng skills first, like adding Psijic Guild with RaT giving Major Expedition, and enabling mundus effects, before working on bigger systems like gear.

Thats the best part about UI......they could design it to LOOK like anything. It doesn't have to be a REAL gear system as we know it. They could simply make the UI look like you are slotting gear. At the end of the day if a perk gives you 5% health versus a 5 piece set bonus giving you 5% health it really makes no difference. But they could use UI design to create the illusion that vengeance operates on normal gear or build mechanics.

I completely agree with the notion that new players will prefer vengeance and having the veng stat system mimic the gear system in the game is a very wise choice to improve learning and avoid confusion.

PvE people and newbies in PvP seem to drastically prefer that their PvE gear setups are separate from their PvP setups. Again where I think they could make vengeance have its own stickerbook of gear sets which are saved on 4 different loadouts. Entering/exiting pvp would swap you back to your normal zone gear like how veng currently works.

Mundus, attributes, food choices, armor enchants(except tristats) would all be good first choices to incorporate. Then they can taper down the perk/loadout stats to compensate.

aetherix8 · April 24

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc

I'm kind of divided on gear. On the one hand, effectively combining item sets is an essential part of the game, so if veng is to be a point of entry for new players, then this important part is missing. On the other hand, players can learn using item sets while PvEing, and it doesn't take very long to understand the differences between PvE and PvP gear setups (traits, enchants, etc.). I think perks can mimic flat stat item sets fairly effectively, given there are enough of them (right now there are too few options available).

Creating veng versions of item sets translates into an extra workload at a time when ZOS is developing a new one-keep map. Personally, I would prefer if devs finish coding veng skills first, like adding Psijic Guild with RaT giving Major Expedition, and enabling mundus effects, before working on bigger systems like gear.

Thats the best part about UI......they could design it to LOOK like anything. It doesn't have to be a REAL gear system as we know it. They could simply make the UI look like you are slotting gear. At the end of the day if a perk gives you 5% health versus a 5 piece set bonus giving you 5% health it really makes no difference. But they could use UI design to create the illusion that vengeance operates on normal gear or build mechanics.

I completely agree with the notion that new players will prefer vengeance and having the veng stat system mimic the gear system in the game is a very wise choice to improve learning and avoid confusion.

PvE people and newbies in PvP seem to drastically prefer that their PvE gear setups are separate from their PvP setups. Again where I think they could make vengeance have its own stickerbook of gear sets which are saved on 4 different loadouts. Entering/exiting pvp would swap you back to your normal zone gear like how veng currently works.

Mundus, attributes, food choices, armor enchants(except tristats) would all be good first choices to incorporate. Then they can taper down the perk/loadout stats to compensate.

Yes, incorporating a gear UI corresponding to loadouts would certainly be beneficial to new players. It would constitute, in a way, a tutorial on building for vet PvP. I mean, loadouts have similar effects to build choices: players can choose a healer, or a more tanky setup, and in live Cyro such specializations are mostly defined by item sets. So, let's say I pick Soldier, and upon equipping it I can see on which item sets the stat values of this setup are based, along with weight, traits, and enchants. That would allow new players to appreciate the differences in building for PvP (e.g., divine trait), and perhaps give them some inspiration. Right now, loadouts are displaying the final result without explaining how it is obtained, and that's quite a significant lacuna for learners.

ZOS could start* by updating those already existing loadouts; that would add some item set options that could be expanded with more pre-made builds (loadouts) added over time, and finally add an option to create our own loadouts by combining veng equivalents of item sets.

*once all skill lines are developed, Psijic Guild is missing despite being used in PvP

MincMincMinc · April 24

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc

I'm kind of divided on gear. On the one hand, effectively combining item sets is an essential part of the game, so if veng is to be a point of entry for new players, then this important part is missing. On the other hand, players can learn using item sets while PvEing, and it doesn't take very long to understand the differences between PvE and PvP gear setups (traits, enchants, etc.). I think perks can mimic flat stat item sets fairly effectively, given there are enough of them (right now there are too few options available).

Creating veng versions of item sets translates into an extra workload at a time when ZOS is developing a new one-keep map. Personally, I would prefer if devs finish coding veng skills first, like adding Psijic Guild with RaT giving Major Expedition, and enabling mundus effects, before working on bigger systems like gear.

Thats the best part about UI......they could design it to LOOK like anything. It doesn't have to be a REAL gear system as we know it. They could simply make the UI look like you are slotting gear. At the end of the day if a perk gives you 5% health versus a 5 piece set bonus giving you 5% health it really makes no difference. But they could use UI design to create the illusion that vengeance operates on normal gear or build mechanics.

I completely agree with the notion that new players will prefer vengeance and having the veng stat system mimic the gear system in the game is a very wise choice to improve learning and avoid confusion.

PvE people and newbies in PvP seem to drastically prefer that their PvE gear setups are separate from their PvP setups. Again where I think they could make vengeance have its own stickerbook of gear sets which are saved on 4 different loadouts. Entering/exiting pvp would swap you back to your normal zone gear like how veng currently works.

Mundus, attributes, food choices, armor enchants(except tristats) would all be good first choices to incorporate. Then they can taper down the perk/loadout stats to compensate.

Yes, incorporating a gear UI corresponding to loadouts would certainly be beneficial to new players. It would constitute, in a way, a tutorial on building for vet PvP. I mean, loadouts have similar effects to build choices: players can choose a healer, or a more tanky setup, and in live Cyro such specializations are mostly defined by item sets. So, let's say I pick Soldier, and upon equipping it I can see on which item sets the stat values of this setup are based, along with weight, traits, and enchants. That would allow new players to appreciate the differences in building for PvP (e.g., divine trait), and perhaps give them some inspiration. Right now, loadouts are displaying the final result without explaining how it is obtained, and that's quite a significant lacuna for learners.

ZOS could start* by updating those already existing loadouts; that would add some item set options that could be expanded with more pre-made builds (loadouts) added over time, and finally add an option to create our own loadouts by combining veng equivalents of item sets.

*once all skill lines are developed, Psijic Guild is missing despite being used in PvP

I understand what they were doing for the loadouts and perks, but in reality zos didnt really pick the same stats any real pvper would shoot for in terms of healer builds or whatever. Like on magsorc in vengeance I am running vanguard while health regen stacking instead of damage. If I was to do a healer, I probably would look at scout for the crit chance and then pic the critchance perks.....not the healer loadout. Any amount of 1vX in veng basically requires regen, so another magsorc option is the ult for stam regen instead so you can roll constantly.

Psijic I have gripes with because I dont think they should tie together major expedition and root/snare immunity. That alone had created a 0-100mph feeling in pvp which made the movement system feel inconsistent and jarring. Really on live it was needed because at the time zos slapped snares onto half the skills in the game and it was intended for mag players to now compete movement wise with stam players.....which was also a questionable concept considering stam was nearly all melee and suddenly ranged mag players were outpacing melee stam builds. But this is a rant for a different thread. I have better concepts for snare immunity that would obsolete RAT.

aetherix8 · April 25

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc

I'm kind of divided on gear. On the one hand, effectively combining item sets is an essential part of the game, so if veng is to be a point of entry for new players, then this important part is missing. On the other hand, players can learn using item sets while PvEing, and it doesn't take very long to understand the differences between PvE and PvP gear setups (traits, enchants, etc.). I think perks can mimic flat stat item sets fairly effectively, given there are enough of them (right now there are too few options available).

Creating veng versions of item sets translates into an extra workload at a time when ZOS is developing a new one-keep map. Personally, I would prefer if devs finish coding veng skills first, like adding Psijic Guild with RaT giving Major Expedition, and enabling mundus effects, before working on bigger systems like gear.

Thats the best part about UI......they could design it to LOOK like anything. It doesn't have to be a REAL gear system as we know it. They could simply make the UI look like you are slotting gear. At the end of the day if a perk gives you 5% health versus a 5 piece set bonus giving you 5% health it really makes no difference. But they could use UI design to create the illusion that vengeance operates on normal gear or build mechanics.

I completely agree with the notion that new players will prefer vengeance and having the veng stat system mimic the gear system in the game is a very wise choice to improve learning and avoid confusion.

PvE people and newbies in PvP seem to drastically prefer that their PvE gear setups are separate from their PvP setups. Again where I think they could make vengeance have its own stickerbook of gear sets which are saved on 4 different loadouts. Entering/exiting pvp would swap you back to your normal zone gear like how veng currently works.

Mundus, attributes, food choices, armor enchants(except tristats) would all be good first choices to incorporate. Then they can taper down the perk/loadout stats to compensate.

Yes, incorporating a gear UI corresponding to loadouts would certainly be beneficial to new players. It would constitute, in a way, a tutorial on building for vet PvP. I mean, loadouts have similar effects to build choices: players can choose a healer, or a more tanky setup, and in live Cyro such specializations are mostly defined by item sets. So, let's say I pick Soldier, and upon equipping it I can see on which item sets the stat values of this setup are based, along with weight, traits, and enchants. That would allow new players to appreciate the differences in building for PvP (e.g., divine trait), and perhaps give them some inspiration. Right now, loadouts are displaying the final result without explaining how it is obtained, and that's quite a significant lacuna for learners.

ZOS could start* by updating those already existing loadouts; that would add some item set options that could be expanded with more pre-made builds (loadouts) added over time, and finally add an option to create our own loadouts by combining veng equivalents of item sets.

*once all skill lines are developed, Psijic Guild is missing despite being used in PvP

I understand what they were doing for the loadouts and perks, but in reality zos didnt really pick the same stats any real pvper would shoot for in terms of healer builds or whatever. Like on magsorc in vengeance I am running vanguard while health regen stacking instead of damage. If I was to do a healer, I probably would look at scout for the crit chance and then pic the critchance perks.....not the healer loadout. Any amount of 1vX in veng basically requires regen, so another magsorc option is the ult for stam regen instead so you can roll constantly.

That reads a lot like "devs don't know how to play their game", and if they were to justify loadouts' stats with veng gear then we would have a lot of misleading options... Far from ideal for learners. In such a case, it is maybe wiser to settle for perks and loadouts, and forget about gear. We need more options to modify our stats and the possibility to create our own loadouts would be great, but that can be achieved without veng specific item sets.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Psijic I have gripes with because I dont think they should tie together major expedition and root/snare immunity. That alone had created a 0-100mph feeling in pvp which made the movement system feel inconsistent and jarring. Really on live it was needed because at the time zos slapped snares onto half the skills in the game and it was intended for mag players to now compete movement wise with stam players.....which was also a questionable concept considering stam was nearly all melee and suddenly ranged mag players were outpacing melee stam builds. But this is a rant for a different thread. I have better concepts for snare immunity that would obsolete RAT.

ZOS can remove the snare part from veng version and make in single-effect, like Falcon's Swiftness that only grants Major Expedition in Vengeance.

ceruulean · April 25

You know the PTS for u50 has the speed boost skill you're asking for? Actually since it's a unique buff it'll probably attack with zoomy wardens and NB lol (slotting 2 speed skills would be overkill and a sacrifice to sustain/damage, so maybe good for a scroll runner build).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691126/new-vengeance-loadout-specific-skill-lines#latest

aetherix8 · April 26

ceruulean wrote: »

You know the PTS for u50 has the speed boost skill you're asking for? Actually since it's a unique buff it'll probably attack with zoomy wardens and NB lol (slotting 2 speed skills would be overkill and a sacrifice to sustain/damage, so maybe good for a scroll runner build).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691126/new-vengeance-loadout-specific-skill-lines#latest

Thank you for pointing it out; I wasn't aware of it. This is a helpful addition, yet it doesn't solve the problem entirely. Some classes still have the potential to be faster than those who don't have access to Major Expedition through their kit. You're probably right about stacking, and it can be very advantageous while grouped. Tower humpers will be thrilled.

MincMincMinc · April 27

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

aetherix8 · April 29

MincMincMinc wrote: »

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

I might be wrong as I didn't pvp much on Warden, but isn't it a 1vX class as strong/stronger than DK, and one which still preserves its Falcon's speed buff in Vengeance (6seconds major expedition!)? DK's Wings having such a buff wouldn't be that much of an extra class imbalance.

My main issue here is how disconnected Veng DK feels since the refresh because of the old wings. These days I'm running a lot around my Coldharbour Estate as I'm redoing it from scratch, and the new wings are very helpful. Then I land in Veng and the button is again not doing what it is supposed to do, and it is so incredibly frustrating.

ceruulean · April 29

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

I might be wrong as I didn't pvp much on Warden, but isn't it a 1vX class as strong/stronger than DK, and one which still preserves its Falcon's speed buff in Vengeance (6seconds major expedition!)? DK's Wings having such a buff wouldn't be that much of an extra class imbalance.

My main issue here is how disconnected Veng DK feels since the refresh because of the old wings. These days I'm running a lot around my Coldharbour Estate as I'm redoing it from scratch, and the new wings are very helpful. Then I land in Veng and the button is again not doing what it is supposed to do, and it is so incredibly frustrating.

Uh no DK does not need major expedition lol. If you can't counter the class with range it'll be busted. The wings already counter my bow build with projectile reduction but at least the DK won't have kill pressure or an important damage buff or whatever. And you'll be getting the speed skill from scout loadout so you can be speedy anyway

DK is better at 1vX in Venegance due to inhale and the dragon blood, an incredibly op self heal with the highest tooltip in the game. Wardens shalks have such a tiny AoE that they desync and warden doesn't have instant CC so they can't secure kills.

I'm glad DK got buffed since last Vengeance since they needed it, but the latest test they were pretty good. It's a lot harder to kill them than before, and they can kill you from attrition and pressing 2 defensive buttons and not needing to heavy attack for sustain management.

Darethran · April 29

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS could start* by updating those already existing loadouts; that would add some item set options that could be expanded with more pre-made builds (loadouts) added over time, and finally add an option to create our own loadouts by combining veng equivalents of item sets.

*once all skill lines are developed, Psijic Guild is missing despite being used in PvP

Yeah this would be great. A UI pretending you're equipping 2 or 3 sets but you're really just getting a single passive skill. For Psijic, the only thing I miss from it is the healing light/heavy attack skill. I'd love to have that back, though with a good buff to the healing done with how much more health and damage there is in Vengeance.

MincMincMinc · April 29

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

I might be wrong as I didn't pvp much on Warden, but isn't it a 1vX class as strong/stronger than DK, and one which still preserves its Falcon's speed buff in Vengeance (6seconds major expedition!)? DK's Wings having such a buff wouldn't be that much of an extra class imbalance.

My main issue here is how disconnected Veng DK feels since the refresh because of the old wings. These days I'm running a lot around my Coldharbour Estate as I'm redoing it from scratch, and the new wings are very helpful. Then I land in Veng and the button is again not doing what it is supposed to do, and it is so incredibly frustrating.

No its purely sustain and healing potential. DK "core of flame" skill gives 3k mag and 3k stam regen while also being a burst skill. This while pressured lets you sustain vigor and resto regen. If you happen to get low, DK has a uniquely scaling dragon blood skill in vengeance that heals based on max health so it tooltips around ~20k and it also increases based on severity so it can go up to 30k tooltip. Then from there it can crit too.

I mainly played shieldsorc and melee nightblade during this test which could 3shot most people, but would get run down by ~4 pugs. Duoing with an equivalent skilled player and his DK could just walk around slowly with 10+ people on him. If you really wanted, you could just slap on rapids for speed but it is simply not needed if you have terrain.

aetherix8 · April 30

ceruulean wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

I might be wrong as I didn't pvp much on Warden, but isn't it a 1vX class as strong/stronger than DK, and one which still preserves its Falcon's speed buff in Vengeance (6seconds major expedition!)? DK's Wings having such a buff wouldn't be that much of an extra class imbalance.

My main issue here is how disconnected Veng DK feels since the refresh because of the old wings. These days I'm running a lot around my Coldharbour Estate as I'm redoing it from scratch, and the new wings are very helpful. Then I land in Veng and the button is again not doing what it is supposed to do, and it is so incredibly frustrating.

Uh no DK does not need major expedition lol. If you can't counter the class with range it'll be busted. The wings already counter my bow build with projectile reduction but at least the DK won't have kill pressure or an important damage buff or whatever. And you'll be getting the speed skill from scout loadout so you can be speedy anyway

DK is better at 1vX in Venegance due to inhale and the dragon blood, an incredibly op self heal with the highest tooltip in the game. Wardens shalks have such a tiny AoE that they desync and warden doesn't have instant CC so they can't secure kills.

I'm glad DK got buffed since last Vengeance since they needed it, but the latest test they were pretty good. It's a lot harder to kill them than before, and they can kill you from attrition and pressing 2 defensive buttons and not needing to heavy attack for sustain management.

I understand the balance concerns you mentioned, but I can't quite grasp the logic. DK is strong enough right now, and a 30% class speed buff (wings) would make it too strong, but a non-class 50% speed buff (scout skill) is fine. If 50% doesn't bother you, then why does 30%?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

IDK I still go back and forth on it. Like in veng sorc and NB need the movement speed because of their defensive kit and overall skill costs. NB doesn't have a great burst, and sorc shields cost alot without getting you out of execute range.

However on DK, you absolutely don't need the speed since you can solo tank upwards of 8+ players with practically any terrain. IMO DK probably should not have access to an easy major expedition.

I might be wrong as I didn't pvp much on Warden, but isn't it a 1vX class as strong/stronger than DK, and one which still preserves its Falcon's speed buff in Vengeance (6seconds major expedition!)? DK's Wings having such a buff wouldn't be that much of an extra class imbalance.

My main issue here is how disconnected Veng DK feels since the refresh because of the old wings. These days I'm running a lot around my Coldharbour Estate as I'm redoing it from scratch, and the new wings are very helpful. Then I land in Veng and the button is again not doing what it is supposed to do, and it is so incredibly frustrating.

No its purely sustain and healing potential. DK "core of flame" skill gives 3k mag and 3k stam regen while also being a burst skill. This while pressured lets you sustain vigor and resto regen. If you happen to get low, DK has a uniquely scaling dragon blood skill in vengeance that heals based on max health so it tooltips around ~20k and it also increases based on severity so it can go up to 30k tooltip. Then from there it can crit too.

I mainly played shieldsorc and melee nightblade during this test which could 3shot most people, but would get run down by ~4 pugs. Duoing with an equivalent skilled player and his DK could just walk around slowly with 10+ people on him. If you really wanted, you could just slap on rapids for speed but it is simply not needed if you have terrain.

With my current playstyle (subject to improvement), equipping rapids would be a death sentence, as I would run out of stamina in no time.

ADawg · April 30

aetherix8 wrote: »

As classes get reworked, it might be necessary to revisit some Vengeance skills.

Dragonknight refresh is complete and the class finally has major expedition in its kit. I went back to pure DK just to be forced to subclass again in Vengeance, because Veng Wings are useless without major expedition.

Whenever you add something to a class that was not a part of its kit before, could you please review Vengeance skills to make sure that they are consistent with the refresh? Thank you.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

revisit vengeance skills by deleting vengeance

PROBLEM SOLVED

ceruulean · April 30

aetherix8 wrote: »

I understand the balance concerns you mentioned, but I can't quite grasp the logic. DK is strong enough right now, and a 30% class speed buff (wings) would make it too strong, but a non-class 50% speed buff (scout skill) is fine. If 50% doesn't bother you, then why does 30%?

You don't think projectile reduction + wings on the same skill is too busted? There's a difference between speed or reduction, having to pick, not having both on the same skill. Smh no offense but I'm tired of braindead people complaining that their Venegance skills aren't loaded enough. Ranged builds are completely useless in U49 for this reason.

In Vengence an inferior-skilled DK player can stalemate a full damage ranged build with the wings. Ofc they won't kill either so it's a fair tradeoff. If you add speed to the wings then you'd have to remove the projectile reduction. Now you have a class with 2 innate damage buffs, the best sustain skill, best self heal, and speed. I'd hate to see what a better DK would do.

Right now you have to be a scout loadout to have speed, so you're squishy. If you put expedition on the class skill you'll have unkillable tank Vanguard tower humpers. And DK is already nearly unkillable without the speed and with a scout loadout so you'll probably get your wish soon.

MincMincMinc · April 30

There is also the notion of class identity like movement based classes like stamsorc/stamblade should probably be the ones with the kite speed buffs, whereas the stand your ground classes like DK should probably stay in its tankier state. Otherwise we end up with live where everyone has every buff and there is no uniqueness, just the same playstyle reskinned on everything. Kinda the original reason why DK had chains and all the CC in its kit, you were supposed to keep locking down and pulling your target while suffocating them with dots.

aetherix8 · May 1

ceruulean wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I understand the balance concerns you mentioned, but I can't quite grasp the logic. DK is strong enough right now, and a 30% class speed buff (wings) would make it too strong, but a non-class 50% speed buff (scout skill) is fine. If 50% doesn't bother you, then why does 30%?

You don't think projectile reduction + wings on the same skill is too busted? There's a difference between speed or reduction, having to pick, not having both on the same skill. Smh no offense but I'm tired of braindead people complaining that their Venegance skills aren't loaded enough. Ranged builds are completely useless in U49 for this reason.

In Vengence an inferior-skilled DK player can stalemate a full damage ranged build with the wings. Ofc they won't kill either so it's a fair tradeoff. If you add speed to the wings then you'd have to remove the projectile reduction. Now you have a class with 2 innate damage buffs, the best sustain skill, best self heal, and speed. I'd hate to see what a better DK would do.

Right now you have to be a scout loadout to have speed, so you're squishy. If you put expedition on the class skill you'll have unkillable tank Vanguard tower humpers. And DK is already nearly unkillable without the speed and with a scout loadout so you'll probably get your wish soon.

I don't necessarily ask for adding one buff to another on the same skill, although there are some precedents. I would gladly have speed rather than reduced damage from projectiles.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

There is also the notion of class identity like movement based classes like stamsorc/stamblade should probably be the ones with the kite speed buffs, whereas the stand your ground classes like DK should probably stay in its tankier state. Otherwise we end up with live where everyone has every buff and there is no uniqueness, just the same playstyle reskinned on everything. Kinda the original reason why DK had chains and all the CC in its kit, you were supposed to keep locking down and pulling your target while suffocating them with dots.

I would gladly have speed rather than reduced damage from projectiles because I would rather be able to catch sorcs streaking away than "stand my ground". Dragons can move swiftly, and so should a Dragonknight. There might have been such a class identity mindset before, one where certain classes are effectively considered turtles, but perhaps the ongoing refresh is signaling a change in what the future class identity will be. DK now has a major expedition buff in its class kit, which means that some of our ideas about ESO classes might be inaccurate. We will know what ESO classes are once all of them get refreshed.