Sylosi wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

New players struggle because Cyrodiil has a steep learning curve, not because skill is irrelevant.

No they don't, they struggle because the game mode is laughably uncompetitive. Let's take some of the PvP games I've played over the years as examples DOTA 2, SC2, various Tekken's, Rainbow Six Siege, etc, they all have steeper learning curves than ESO (and far higher skill caps for that matter).

Yet they are all more new player friendly (which is saying something given the game's I listed) than Cyrodiil, because they are competitive, so all have some form of MMR / matchmaking (as dubious as that generally is in the case of Tekken games). So a new player overwhelmingly faces other new / relatively inexperienced players or simply those who are terrible at the game (aside from the odd scrub who makes a smurf account).

Meanwhile when a new player comes to Cyrodiil they face players with thousands of hours, they might face players much younger or players who are far more tryhard. With the obvious result being they get served up one-sided, boring AF "PvP", where new players will learn next to nothing. And the funny thing is it isn't much fun for real PvP'ers on the other side of the equation either, but Cyrodiil is very short on those, plenty of role-players though.

Which is of course one of the reasons ESO PvP has been a pretty miserably failure.

We are full on out there now!

You certainly are.

Bout what I expected

No point discussing it now, maintenance is over, play it or don't. It's not like ZOS will be changing their mind.

Vulkunne wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Hi ZOS,

Stop doing this, the majority of your PvP base does not want this washed game mode. We don’t want to contribute anything to your “testing” because we are against it. Frankly, it’s a waste of time. With all the good that’s being done recently in the studio this is the remaining outlier of a team clinging to one last bad decision. It feels like we’re just being reminded to stay skeptical of the PvP dev team’s vacuum decision making philosophy.


*edit*
Can we test PvE Vengeance on April 20th too?

ZOS, I would like to personally thank you for continuing to develop Vengeance and not give up on bringing some much-needed change(s) to Cyrodiil PvP in this game. Cyrodiil PvP in and of itself is not friendly to the casual gamer, it's easy to see, as well as all the challenges facing regular Cyrodiil gameplay, including things like ball groups, emp exploiting, PvP Guilds being noninclusive and people dying so extremely fast with strong builds, I mean like it doesn't even matter. Something had to give and Vengeance is part of this. It is a natural response to how bad things have been in Cyrodiil for the last several years. That said, please know that many of us enjoy Vengeance, we like having alternatives, Vengeance is something that brings everyone on a more level, more equitable playing field and does not implicitly favor a few people who themselves are guilty of repeatedly running exploitive gameplay, using sets like RoA and Winterborn, among others, and in my opinion are abusive towards their fellow gamers. We're all there to have fun not talk about real world stuff and not be fed humble pie cause 5 to 15 people want to play a role and abuse people's time for hours.

You cannot have results like this, again, for years and not have some kind of equal and opposite effect to try and balance things. It's good to think of other people once in a while and many of the exploiters in Cyrodiil only care about themselves, especially in the Guilds. To them the rest of us are invisible, which I don't know how many of you has been in a war or been in the military but that is not how it works. So anyways, I respectfully disagree with @SneaK, I wish Vengeance a successful test and look forward to whatever we can use to make Cyrodiil a classier, more respectable and equitable place for PvPers to spend their hard-earned time and money. Some have had their way for so long and they just, don't want to give it up and have to work hard, to actually learn how to fight in PvP without a machine-proc or group mechanic playing for them, which places them on a more level PvP experience along with the rest of us. Rather than 2 factions on an entire server dying to (1) Emp or a Ball Group for hours. This is immoral, it is a display of the worst type of behavior we've seen before in other now-dead games and those games are dead for good reason. It is my sincere hope that ESO never ends up like them.

Once again thank you.

And again, a Veng champ boasting about balance bashing PvPers. I sincerely hope Vengeance is brought to you, you deserve nothing less.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I popped in rq to see how the Vengeance was Coming along:




And here's how the last Greyhost campaign went:



Despite all the chest pounding and boasting in this thread from the Vengeance fans, it is on day two already a dead campaign. Everyone is seemingly just logging in on their ep toons to take everything, so much that while ep is over 4K points already, everyone else is under 1k. Thats pretty telling. And yes I know it resets early, even with the math incorporating this, this is really really bad, and in fact if it wasnt regularly resetting, the difference would be even greater.

This campaign is actually deader than Ravenwatch and Blackreach, impressive. And Zos decided to halt our very competitive, very active Greyhost pvp, for this. Pvers claim they want Vengeance yet not enough of them are saying this to make the campaign function, much less make it competitive.

Give it a rest Zos, and focus again on Greyhost. This is ridiculous.

Yikes

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I popped in rq to see how the Vengeance was Coming along:




And here's how the last Greyhost campaign went:



Despite all the chest pounding and boasting in this thread from the Vengeance fans, it is on day two already a dead campaign. Everyone is seemingly just logging in on their ep toons to take everything, so much that while ep is over 4K points already, everyone else is under 1k. Thats pretty telling. And yes I know it resets early, even with the math incorporating this, this is really really bad, and in fact if it wasnt regularly resetting, the difference would be even greater.

This campaign is actually deader than Ravenwatch and Blackreach, impressive. And Zos decided to halt our very competitive, very active Greyhost pvp, for this. Pvers claim they want Vengeance yet not enough of them are saying this to make the campaign function, much less make it competitive.

Give it a rest Zos, and focus again on Greyhost. This is ridiculous.

It’s a good reminder why GH is, rightfully, faction locked.

If it was all about skill and vengeance enjoyers were the best all they’d have to do is slap on some meta sets rq, all of which are crafted or easily obtained from cyro venders, and get to work. Instead they refuse to use the best and very easily obtained sets so that their skill can really shine. Why, so they can always have that excuse of oh I don’t play meta bro I hate the meta that’s why I die.

Was never about skill and really the vengeance people know it, the really skilled ones you’ll find in ic with stormhaven builds you rarely see in cyro and will thrash you regardless of whatever mainstream meta sets you’re wearing and make you adjust your build. Been there lol many times, good way to get ready for a new update.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I popped in rq to see how the Vengeance was Coming along:

And here's how the last Greyhost campaign went:

Despite all the chest pounding and boasting in this thread from the Vengeance fans, it is on day two already a dead campaign. Everyone is seemingly just logging in on their ep toons to take everything, so much that while ep is over 4K points already, everyone else is under 1k. Thats pretty telling. And yes I know it resets early, even with the math incorporating this, this is really really bad, and in fact if it wasnt regularly resetting, the difference would be even greater.

This campaign is actually deader than Ravenwatch and Blackreach, impressive. And Zos decided to halt our very competitive, very active Greyhost pvp, for this. Pvers claim they want Vengeance yet not enough of them are saying this to make the campaign function, much less make it competitive.

Give it a rest Zos, and focus again on Greyhost. This is ridiculous.

This is why I think there should be a conscription at the very start of the campaign where people can sign up and lock whatever faction. Then if you want to change mid campaign, you would forfeit any rewards and any future AP BONUSES. You'd still get ap for kills and such, but you would not get AP bonuses like enemy keep bonuses.

Sat here waiting for Gray Host to return. It's made me realise if it wasn't for that mode I'd probably fold the game after all these years.

They're not getting rid of GH. What are you guys so worried about?

The first night was some of the best Cyrodiil play time in a long time. I took a break yesterday to do some trials and golden persuits. I do wish it were faction locked. I saw a lot of DC playing EP.

It did seem like the cheats were still at it in there. Somehow using werewolf abilities. At least it was less common without the set carries.

It definitely needs more work, I'd like cp enabled maybe. That was the biggest drawback. It was pretty impressive seeing hundreds of players at keeps and not having ping, major desyncs, or skill lag.

xylena wrote: »

They're not getting rid of GH. What are you guys so worried about?

They got rid of it for this stupid test without having Greyhost as an alternative for us who don't want to participate in a time where Greyhost was doing exceptionally well, and on top of that the majority of these "veteran" pvp rewards they're introducing in the u50 are vengeance related and most pvp fans don't even like the game mode.

The focus going towards only Vengeance and the blatant disrespect and lack of care for the longtime fans that still play Greyhost is why I am personally pissed off. I wouldn't care if they wanted to focus on both, but its pretty obvious their main focus, sole focus really will be Vengeance whether their customers like it or not.

And clearly not enough of them do, right now its as dead or more dead than Ravenwatch and Blackreach, and its so frustrating when just last week PvP was so active.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its clear that while the other teams on Zos involved with the class refresh and the rest of the game are making a very solid attempt to understand what we want and make changes accordingly, the PvP side of the team even without Rich Lambert are still very out of touch with reality in relation to who is playing PvP, who WILL play PvP and what we want from it. They themselves decided that instead of finding out what they want, lets make PvP for us and what we wanted it to be. Rather than what the community has crafted out of it in spite of Zos' failings.

I honestly think they are just looking at bad data. The survey questions were very skewed with alot of questions having the majority of responses being marked as "favorable".

I also think they are just looking at flat playercount/time logged into vengence and saying "look people love it we have record number of players logged in and record play time for pvp."

What they need to be doing, and hopefully are, is looking comparing the "core" pvp players and their time spent. Sure, it's nice to have new people come into cyrodiil but if you're casual pver just comes around once in a blue moon to get rewards and dip.... are you really making an improvement?

I dont know.. just talking off the cuff here.... I just wish the PvP community felt like they had a voice. The new direction zos is going is so damn good... like communication is the best I think it's ever been.. but as it relates to us PvPers I feel like we are just stuck in the silo of being ignored year after year. (not to be named) individual and their stream comments didn't help the perception... but yeah.

I don't know maybe @ZOS_Kevin can work with the team and figure something out to where we don't feel so ignored - voice/feedback wise anyways.

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The focus going towards only Vengeance

1 test every 3mo for a full year, 0 combat balance problems addressed (or even commented on), that sure does not seem like much focus on Vengeance. I would wager their focus is on the class reworks and the supposed new PvP keep siege battlegrounds mode.

Its more concern than they're seemingly showing for Greyhost, the only new thing we've seen is their making Chal, Ash and Alessia bigger.

Though yea, I forgot about whatever this smaller cyrodiil map is supposed to be. Again they wouldn't be getting so much heat if they just let Greyhost be open alongside Vengeance like the last test we got, on the second half of it anyway.

LadyGP wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its clear that while the other teams on Zos involved with the class refresh and the rest of the game are making a very solid attempt to understand what we want and make changes accordingly, the PvP side of the team even without Rich Lambert are still very out of touch with reality in relation to who is playing PvP, who WILL play PvP and what we want from it. They themselves decided that instead of finding out what they want, lets make PvP for us and what we wanted it to be. Rather than what the community has crafted out of it in spite of Zos' failings.

I honestly think they are just looking at bad data. The survey questions were very skewed with alot of questions having the majority of responses being marked as "favorable".

I also think they are just looking at flat playercount/time logged into vengence and saying "look people love it we have record number of players logged in and record play time for pvp."

Their surveys do seem skewed yes, and the only good thing about them is that they let you add comments to clarify the choices you picked. This is why I half jokingly said I'd take a job from them just to address the issues in pvp, they seriously need a team of people that actually play in some capacity, even if its ballgrouping since at least then Zos would understand how ridiculous and how much of an issue those are. They gotta pvp in cyrodiil some way, somehow before they can actually understand the data they're looking at. Rather than being laymen in their own game and trying to understand community comments and data with no real point of reference.

For instance they're looking at the lag spikes in cyrodiil and calling it a problem related to sets and all the different skills from new skill lines they've added to the game. Seasoned Cyrodiil players know what this actually is.

The only two moments in Cyrodiil currently where the game truly feels unplayable are when Volendrung spawns, and Ballgroups, especially multiple Ballgroups appear. And usually, Volendrung brings lag because it attracts the latter. Big zergs have some lag sure, but more times than not what players are experiencing from zergs isn't lag its their PC performance suffering.

In the case of Ballgroups, its often both. In summary, if Zos played their own game more they'd know how out of hand Ballgroups have really gotten, and the only thing they really need to focus on for greyhost from a technical level anyway is, how to power down ballgroups. They've finally started taking a real look at this with the most recent heal stacking nerf but it isn't enough. They need to roll back that statement of "we can't fix greyhost" and do what we've been begging them to for years, rather than switching focus to other game modes frankly that no one asked for.

I've never chased meta, don't rely on proc sets that help me get kills and have almost always been a hybrid dk on my main. I had a blast the first couple of Vengeance campaigns. Got the closest I'll probably ever be to being Empress, especially the one before they reintroduced Emp, I was #1 several days (ngl, still a bit salty about that because by the time the next one came around and Emp was active again, there just weren't enough people participating for AD and we would get stomped every day. And before anyone says switch alliances, I am and will always be AD for life, FTQ!!). Yesterday and today the whole map has been dominated by DC on PSNA. It's completely unbalanced population wise and it's just not fun at all anymore.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If it was all about skill and vengeance enjoyers were the best all they’d have to do is slap on some meta sets rq, all of which are crafted or easily obtained from cyro venders, and get to work. Instead they refuse to use the best and very easily obtained sets so that their skill can really shine. Why, so they can always have that excuse of oh I don’t play meta bro I hate the meta that’s why I die.

Was never about skill and really the vengeance people know it, the really skilled ones you’ll find in ic with stormhaven builds you rarely see in cyro and will thrash you regardless of whatever mainstream meta sets you’re wearing and make you adjust your build. Been there lol many times, good way to get ready for a new update.

Here, Here. Well stated.