ZOS, 4v4v4s may have their own issues, but they are much more consistently engaging.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

I mean that in the literal sense of the word; 4v4v4s have constant engagements, even if the actual "objective based PvP" may not be as balanced.

90% of 2 team BGs devolve into a respawn simulator. The team the wins the first fight sits at the other teams spawn for the rest of the match, and there is no pressure or other team to dissuade that.

I have yet to have a match like that today with 3 team BGs. Yes, there are still stomps, but the added team means that the match almost never devolves into sitting at one teams spawn for the entire match. It certainly never devolves into one team standing around doing nothing because the other team refuses to drop out of spawn, because it literally can't.

Please consider making 3 team BGs permanent again. 8s and 4s could be combined into a single queue, or make one of those the "special event" BGs. It's so disappointing having nearly every match in 2 team turn into a spawn camp.

AScarlato · April 22

What was their thought process in moving towards only two teams to begin with?

3 teams always led to some level of chaos and strategy. 1 v 1 teams is now often just brute force and it's dull.

Major_Mangle · April 22

We need to be able to pick the mode we wanna play, regardless if we get team vs team or team vs team vs team. I loath the objective modes in 3 team BG`s (except chaos ball which is somewhat fine, Crazy king is alright until too many flags are up and it becomes PvE questing simulator), with how anti PvP it is. From what I can gather, most players find 8v8 to have some good moments depending on the modes, but 4v4 is more or less objectively a failure in every sense.

Remove 4v4, replace it with 3 team and allow us to pick the mode like we could back in the day (would probably have to compromise whether or not groups/solo can be separated, but that´s another topic).

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

Major_Mangle wrote: »

We need to be able to pick the mode we wanna play, regardless if we get team vs team or team vs team vs team. I loath the objective modes in 3 team BG`s (except chaos ball which is somewhat fine, Crazy king is alright until too many flags are up and it becomes PvE questing simulator), with how anti PvP it is. From what I can gather, most players find 8v8 to have some good moments depending on the modes, but 4v4 is more or less objectively a failure in every sense.

Remove 4v4, replace it with 3 team and allow us to pick the mode like we could back in the day (would probably have to compromise whether or not groups/solo can be separated, but that´s another topic).

The thing is, the objective modes would be such an easy fix for the most part:

Reduce the number of flags in the flag games to 2 or 3.

Add a snare to the Chaosball (should probably happen in 2 teams as well).

CTR is a bit of a different situation; personally I think the spawn point of each relic should be more towards the center of the map, with the collection point back at spawn, as it would encourage people doing offense + defense rather than everyone standing around playing defense until someone gets bored. The Ayleid map with the central spawn works a lot better for CTR because people can kinda go anywhere.

The first two fixes would take like a day of dev time. The 3rd would require a bit of map design change, but all in all would still be a relatively simple change.

ruskiii · April 22

They should bring 4v4v4 back, but keep 4v4, its a way better mode to GvG than 3 teams or 8v8. Easier to sync queues between groups and gives direct results.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

ruskiii wrote: »

They should bring 4v4v4 back, but keep 4v4, its a way better mode to GvG than 3 teams or 8v8. Easier to sync queues between groups and gives direct results.

Better yet, just give us a custom lobby system like we've requested since Morrowind dropped.

xylena · April 22

Format won't matter when the MMR system keeps throwing noobs and sweatlords into the same lobby over and over, nevermind the horrendous map spawn system that compounds every other balance problem in the game, or the broken scoring...

robertlabrie · April 22

Problem with 4v4v4 is that one weak player is a greater percentage of the group. I would love to see 8v8v8 BGs personally

Pepegrillos · April 22

Will @Haki_7 be vindicated or @Decimus ? Find out in the next episode of...

imPDA · April 22

robertlabrie wrote: »

Problem with 4v4v4 is that one weak player is a greater percentage of the group. I would love to see 8v8v8 BGs personally

It is not the problem of 4v4v4 mode, do not blame it, it is just a consequence, and usually people (including devs) are bad in finding out what is a problem and what is a consequence. Real problem: lack of people, MMR absence. If devs will make PvP more popular and then introduce MMR, outstandingly bad player in a team should be the rare case.

P.S. Less people - simpler to make equal groups, so 4v4v4 (12 total) would be better than 8v8 (16), and 4v4 could be even better, but it really requires enough people to make MMR system work.

Sythen88411 · April 22

There is so many people hyped abut 4v4v4 coming back. We are all TIRED of 1 sided bgs...

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

robertlabrie wrote: »

Problem with 4v4v4 is that one weak player is a greater percentage of the group. I would love to see 8v8v8 BGs personally

While true, on the flipside, a strong player built for 1vX can have much more success on a bad team in a 4v4v4 than on a bad team in an 8v8 by looking for third party kills. When you're in an 8v8, all 8 enemies are targeting you. In a 4v4v4, the two teams will at least sometimes be focused on each other, meaning that you can fish for third party kills even if your team is nonexistent.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

xylena wrote: »

Format won't matter when the MMR system keeps throwing noobs and sweatlords into the same lobby over and over, nevermind the horrendous map spawn system that compounds every other balance problem in the game, or the broken scoring...

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Yes, regardless of format, BGs have their problems (I literally said as much in the title of this post).

That doesn't excuse the fact that 9/10 of my 8v8 matches, without hyperbole, result in one team spawn camping the other team the entirety of the match.

That happens far less often in 4v4v4s. There are more consistent fights, more rotating around the map, and fewer spawn camp simulators in 3 team BGs, on average.

xylena · April 22

Sythen88411 wrote: »

There is so many people hyped abut 4v4v4 coming back. We are all TIRED of 1 sided bgs...

Hype will die soon as people remember the fun of every match being 8v4. Also:

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

I stand by my theory that what players miss isn't the format, but rather the slightly less terrible MMR system that could at least put sweaty players into "high MMR" with some consistency during hours when the queue was populated.

Thumbless_Bot · April 22

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

They should bring 4v4v4 back, but keep 4v4, its a way better mode to GvG than 3 teams or 8v8. Easier to sync queues between groups and gives direct results.

Better yet, just give us a custom lobby system like we've requested since Morrowind dropped.

XvXvX sounds cool as does a general 8v8v8 lobby.

gariondavey · April 22

Bring back 4v4v4 deathmatch solo and group queue separately from objective modes please

Better yet, please give us the custom lobby myself and others have been asking for since 2017

Decimus · April 22

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Will @Haki_7 be vindicated or @Decimus ? Find out in the next episode of...

Some "very balanced 3-way BGs":

Who would've thought. Teams winning that should never win by avoiding PvP, people getting spawncamped still, people queueing in with Xv1/dueling setups to grief etc

I thought 3-way could be a fun change of pace for a few days but oh how wrong was I...

React · April 22

It's great seeing the old maps again, many of them are so well designed. Was really sad seeing them removed.

In my opinion, 4v4v4 is SO much better than 4v4. Of course at the high MMR brackets it can get a bit frustrating having things become a third party fest, but overall even the worst 4v4v4 match feels more enjoyable than your average 4v4 to me.

Hopefully the community sentiment is positive and zenimax will host more of these, or consider bringing them back as a permanent feature. I wouldn't mind the two permanent queue options being 8v8 & 4v4v4, with 4v4s going away completely.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 22

Decimus wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Will @Haki_7 be vindicated or @Decimus ? Find out in the next episode of...

Some "very balanced 3-way BGs":

Who would've thought. Teams winning that should never win by avoiding PvP, people getting spawncamped still, people queueing in with Xv1/dueling setups to grief etc

I thought 3-way could be a fun change of pace for a few days but oh how wrong was I...

Idk man, this is how literally every match in 2 team BGs goes in NA. I haven't had a match that lopsided yet in 3 teams today.

Decimus · April 22

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Will @Haki_7 be vindicated or @Decimus ? Find out in the next episode of...

Some "very balanced 3-way BGs":

Who would've thought. Teams winning that should never win by avoiding PvP, people getting spawncamped still, people queueing in with Xv1/dueling setups to grief etc

I thought 3-way could be a fun change of pace for a few days but oh how wrong was I...

Idk man, this is how literally every match in 2 team BGs goes in NA. I haven't had a match that lopsided yet in 3 teams today.

It happens a lot in two-sided BGs too, it's a matchmaking issue - always has been.

Pepegrillos · April 22

Maybe there is some way of keeping both 3 and 2 sided BGs together. Is there any sense in which 3 side is better for some modes and 2 side for others?

Thumbless_Bot · April 23

React wrote: »

It's great seeing the old maps again, many of them are so well designed. Was really sad seeing them removed.

In my opinion, 4v4v4 is SO much better than 4v4. Of course at the high MMR brackets it can get a bit frustrating having things become a third party fest, but overall even the worst 4v4v4 match feels more enjoyable than your average 4v4 to me.

Hopefully the community sentiment is positive and zenimax will host more of these, or consider bringing them back as a permanent feature. I wouldn't mind the two permanent queue options being 8v8 & 4v4v4, with 4v4s going away completely.

I haven't been on pts but I am just really relieved they brought back the old maps. I was worried they would try to put 3 teams in the new maps and nothing else.

I would mind if they removed 4v4 though. I am sure there are some folks that enjoy that content and we all know what it feels like to have content we love removed from the game.

karthrag_inak · April 23

xylena wrote: »

Sythen88411 wrote: »

There is so many people hyped abut 4v4v4 coming back. We are all TIRED of 1 sided bgs...

I stand by my theory that what players miss isn't the format, but rather the slightly less terrible MMR system that could at least put sweaty players into "high MMR" with some consistency during hours when the queue was populated.

No. It was definitely the format. No matter how pimptastic the gear or the "Skill", the possibility of double-teaming made it very rare that there was ever a single team that completely shut down all their opponents.

That's routine with 4v4.

Lagzee · April 23

xylena wrote: »

Sythen88411 wrote: »

There is so many people hyped abut 4v4v4 coming back. We are all TIRED of 1 sided bgs...

Hype will die soon as people remember the fun of every match being 8v4. Also:

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

ENEMY STOLE THE KILL

I stand by my theory that what players miss isn't the format, but rather the slightly less terrible MMR system that could at least put sweaty players into "high MMR" with some consistency during hours when the queue was populated.

kill stealing was an issue sure, but whenever it was a problem it was always from sorcs/mages fury. As for the 8v4 thing, idk i have done many more bgs than i could ever count since they came out and thats not something i experienced often at all.

And im not sure why you think that people would only miss the MMR system not being terrible, couldnt it be both? Its certainly both for me.

The bottom line is, the MMR system is everything, or better yet a proper ranking system. 4v4, 8v8, 4v4v4, whatever the case may be, it can all feel really good or really bad depending on the ranking/MMR system. Whatever they did with new bgs ruined whatever MMR system they had back in old bgs. It wasnt perfect but it was much better than what we have now.

I dont know why zos feels the need to restrict BGs in so many ways. Why cant we have more match types? Like 2v2 4v4 8v8 and 4v4v4. People will que what they want to que for, or some people will que for it all. There is no harm in it.

If i had it my way we would have a good ranking system, based on much more than just time played. And pvpers would be much happier.

People just dont like the way bgs are now, especially newer players. It just always feels so one sided. The match never feels fair. They should take a page out of new worlds book and make it so people need to have certain weapons equipped, or stats, to que as a healer or tank. Because while i find tanks utterly pointless in pvp, in everything besides capture games, healers often make or break these matches.

i just feel like pvpers have been so neglected for so long, and there are many ways to make things so much better. Cyro performance issues, BG MMR issues, IC issues, balance issues, even a lack of group dueling, which people have been asking about for years. I really appreciate the attention they are giving to pvp now, but its just been so long.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 23

Im not sure its possible, but they could keep a mixture of both. Im on the fence about some of it. The objectives are fun. Id like to see more things like that, an arena full of Strangler plants would be a sight to behold😎 or trying to move a ball through that while fighting at the same time. Where chance is a factor, usually there can be fun involved.

I do think what takes the fun away is when chance is barely or non existent. People are up against builds and other things they can't possibly hold a candle to. I think damage is way too overpowered and not just in battlegrounds either. The grouping offers them a chance at better grouping in future rounds too though. I do understand that some people enjoy a serious brawl with top tier players, so mixing it up with both might better suit us all.

Ive also been in BGs where people either didn't know what they were doing and kept fighting each other, or just straight up ignored the objectives lol They just pretended the ball wasn't even there😂 Sometimes the unexplained makes it worth it too. This is increased a bit in the 3 teams, though I've seen it happen in 2 teams

Firstmep · April 23

I love the old maps, still hate domination.
Chaosball would've been a much better showcase for 3 way bgs, domination/ctr are the worst.
That being said queue pops on EU were near instant all afternoon/night, so there is clearly an appetite for 3 way bgs.
In my matches I found less spawncamping, at least when players/teams actually played for objectives. If your goal is to play death match then spawn camping is of course still possible, you are just more likely to lose the match.

At the end of the day no amount of fiddling with maps is going to solve the mainnissue of matchmaking.
There is currently 0 incentive for people.to queue into "competitive" mode, and thus more hardcore players will continue to be pitted against casuals.

xylena · April 23

Decimus wrote: »

Teams winning that should never win by avoiding PvP

Problem is you're talking to the guys that want to avoid PvP, want to let their gear play the game for them, want to be the random 3rd party not the competitors, etc... leaving the game in disrepair for this long, you get this very tiny self selected population that for whatever reason likes the things that drove the missing thousands of players to quit.

So the devs are gonna have to make some hard decisions that upset this tiny self selected population, so the game can be alive and healthy, like condensing the Cyro queue. And definitely no more catering to the "I want my own personal PvP queue" attitude.

brandsnipe · May 1

👀👀 didn't know 4v4v4 was back. The 4v4 mode was so bad and unbalanced.

Brakkish · May 1

Mainly came here because it WASN'T ANOTHER NM thread.

But while I'm here...

+1 for 3 team BGs remaining, as an addition to 2 team BGs.
Played both for years - both have pro's and cons, which is why choice is key.

tomofhyrule · May 1

Another three-way week was announced in the May survival guide: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69769

May 20-27

Thumbless_Bot · May 1

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Another three-way week was announced in the May survival guide: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69769

May 20-27

That's 8 days. Win!

Capture the Relic.