A social issue people are reluctant to bring up

DestroyerPewnack · April 20

Athory wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

...okay, dude. Let's give other people a chance to talk.
[edited to remove quote]

Athory · April 20

Why else do you think I’m here? Everyone should contribute something to the discussion about toxicity. Bring solid arguments. Explain why toxicity happens and how ZOS could address it. Offer ideas to make the game better. I’ve shared my point of view based on what I see in-game.
I might be wrong, but until someone brings valid counterarguments, it doesn’t seem that way.

We can all come across as toxic when we’re having a bad day. In many cases, this kind of chat behavior doesn’t last long because people know the limits. So sometimes it’s less about real toxicity and more about a moment of frustration.

But the toxicity that comes from Logs and features like DPS Sharing, when it happens in casual runs, guilds, Discord, Group finder, or any group that isn’t, not even close, an organised team doing score pushes, trifectas or serious HM content… it’s just absurd. I don’t even understand how ZoS allows this or why.

mitchtheelder · April 20

Athory wrote: »

Ask yourself: why does all this toxicity happen? What are the main reasons behind it?

It’s easy to point at "toxic players," but that’s only part of the story. A lot of this behavior is shaped and amplified by the systems around us. Right now, performance tracking tools like DPS sharing and logs are available everywhere, to everyone, in every type of content. And that design choice has consequences.

When DPS is constantly visible, it stops being a learning tool and becomes a social ranking system. Numbers get taken out of context, reduced to "good" or "bad," and used to judge people instantly. Instead of encouraging improvement, it creates pressure, anxiety, and comparison especially in casual environments where players are still learning.

That feeds directly into gatekeeping. Raid leaders, and even random group finder groups, start setting unofficial barriers like "hit X DPS or don’t join." But here’s the problem: group finder is supposed to bring together random players with different skill levels. Turning it into a performance filter completely defeats its purpose.

And this is where it really stops making sense: why do 12 random players who don’t know each other, have no coordination, and no shared expectations, have access to detailed logs and real-time DPS data in a simple pug run? In that environment, those tools have almost no constructive value. You’re not analyzing optimized rotations or coordinated strategies. More often than not, the data gets used to single people out, blame them for wipes, or make them the target of jokes.

Logs and DPS meters absolutely have a place, but that place is organized, high-end content. In coordinated groups, they help teams refine strategies, optimize performance, and push difficult achievements.

But in pugs?
They do the opposite.

They encourage snap judgments, reduce teamwork to a scoreboard, and create a culture where players are evaluated before they’re even given a chance to grow.
DPS sharing in pugs doesn’t teach.

It filters.

It pressures.

It excludes.

Honestly, these tools should be restricted. Logs and DPS visibility should only unlock after players complete high-end challenges like trifectas. At that level, players actively choose a performance-driven environment, and the data becomes meaningful. Before that point, it’s mostly noise and often harmful.

And this is where ZeniMax needs to step in
By allowing unrestricted DPS tracking in all content, ZOS created an environment where:
Judgment is easy

Exclusion is normalized

Mockery is effortless

Casual spaces feel hostile

ZoS effectively handed players the tools to judge, exclude, and mock each other, even in spaces that are supposed to be accessible and casual.

If the goal is a healthier community, the solution isn’t just punishing bad actors. It’s rethinking the systems that enable that behavior in the first place.
Because if everything revolves around numbers from the very start, the community will naturally become less patient, less welcoming, and more toxic. Maybe it’s time to shift the focus away from constant measurement — and back toward learning, cooperation, and actually enjoying the game.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that toxic behavior in games is a real problem that deserves attention. But I don’t think the core issue is the existence of DPS meters or logs themselves — it’s how some people choose to use them.

Performance tools are just that: tools. On their own, they don’t insult anyone, exclude anyone, or mock anyone. Those actions come from players. The same data that one player might use to shame someone else can be used by another to help a teammate improve, troubleshoot mechanics, or understand why a group is struggling.

In many ways, visibility into performance is simply part of the nature of cooperative online games. These games are built around shared goals, and sometimes success depends on everyone contributing at a certain level. Having access to numbers isn’t necessarily about judgment — it can also be about clarity. If a group repeatedly fails a damage check, knowing where the gap is can help solve the problem instead of guessing.

It’s also worth recognizing that standards and expectations naturally emerge in multiplayer games. That’s not always gatekeeping — sometimes it’s just group management. If a group is attempting challenging content, it’s reasonable for them to look for players who meet certain performance levels, just as in sports or team activities outside of gaming.

Another point is that removing or restricting tools wouldn’t necessarily remove toxicity. Players who want to judge or exclude others will often find other ways to do it — gear checks, achievement checks, or simply assumptions based on class or build. Toxicity is a behavioral issue, not a technical one.

At the end of the day, a lot of this comes down to game manners and player culture. Just like in real life, being respectful, patient, and constructive is a personal choice. Tools can support learning and teamwork when used responsibly, but they can’t replace good sportsmanship.

So rather than limiting access to information, it might be more effective to encourage better community standards — promoting respectful communication, mentoring newer players, and reinforcing the idea that performance feedback should be used to help, not to shame.

Toxicity isn’t created by numbers on a screen. It’s created by how people treat each other — and that’s something every player has control over.

olda90 · April 20

Its not very clear what kind of situation you are complaining about but seems more related to the PvE side even though there is toxicity also in PvP. I honestly think that averege IQ actitude in this game is getting lower and the player base is always more egocentric solo oriented so its normal that many things become harder to match with other players and many situations get personal instead of being seen as part of an ingame growth.

There are situations that seem toxic but are justifiable, L2P in this game is underestimated but the devs changed it in order to make eveyone happy so now everyone is entitled to complain even doesnt know the game and doesnt need to know it. There are situations instead were players just show how much are ill, tired of the game, of others and themselfs.

Since the buisneess model its mostly crown/cosmetic oriented but has started with a more hardcore style and there are players here since +10 years the population is very mixed but its unclear what direction the game is taking and you cant pretend much anymore from player base that is always more casual and childish.

What to say there is a reason normally why most players use this game behind a screen... Maybe for hide themselfs from reality and enter a kind of addicted egotrip for anesthetize their feelings and thoughts, most use it as an escape.

You can just chose who you want to be and which players you want close to you, and ignore all the rest. Sadly i dont think it will get better and this is just a mirror of actual society.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 20

Athory wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl

In my opinion, casual players, whether they’re in guild runs, Discord groups, or using the group finder, should not have access to DPS meters and logs.

These tools are meant to help players improve. But in practice, that’s rarely how they’re used. I never see someone in a group finder say, “Let me check logs so I can help you get better.” Instead, logs are used as a gatekeeping tool, to judge, exclude, and kick players.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In my experience, this is the first thing I see veteran players do when trying to help someone improve.

sshogrin · April 20

Athory wrote: »

I believe that "player toxicity" in PvP and PvE is the same issue, and both fall under "player toxicity." I don’t play PvP at all, but I’m pretty sure the toxicity is the same whether it’s in PvP or PvE.

It's absolutely NOT the same issue.
PvP has always been a highly toxic style of gaming as toxic players are in every PvP game out there. The toxic game play was basically invented in PvP games.
A very long time ago in ESO, PvP wasn't a horribly toxic environment. Then WoW had issues, along with a couple other PvP games, and a number of those players left those games and came to ESO for PvP and brought their toxic behaviors with them, that then spread in ESO PvP.
As far as some of the PvE comments you made goes. When I first started doing trials many years ago (I'm a Beta 25 player), you had to post your parse to even get into a trial group. They had minimums. This has been something since close to the beginning of trial groups.
Does the data sharing in ESO for damage cause some issues? Yes, because you have some people that are narcissists that only care about being on the top of the dps list and won't stop their parse to revive a player that's dead next to them. It also leads to those players dying a lot because they refuse to move out of stupid and end up dying. They'll complain that nobody revived them because they hit so hard, but these are the same people that won't revive people because they "hit so hard". Sure there are some a-holes in PvE, in real life there's a-holes in all walks of life, that's just how it is. One thing I've come to realize over the years is those a-hole PvE players might be a part of a group for a while, but they end up no longer being a part of a group because of their attitude.
PvP is a different story because those a-holes don't have to be a part of a group to keep up their toxic behavior and trolling of groups. While they might find it "funny" to do what they do, I'd guess that in real life they don't have any actual friends when they act the way they do. Those people also have no friends in game because of their behavior.
PvP will always be a toxic place due to the nature of PvP. There are some really good people in PvP that are good PvP players, and aren't really toxic, but because they are good, some people might consider them toxic because they kill others so easily. Part of the toxic problem in PvP is also because of how ZOS has changed PvP over the years. They have adjusted sets and skills at the request of PvP players so they can basically have God Mode builds, but they complain when those God builds are used against them. There has been the stuck in battle bug for years and years that's never been fixed. Now there's the change in IC that encourages gank builds and camping certain locations.

mdjessup4906 · April 24

Athory wrote: »

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.
People want to show off their DPS.

They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.

Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?
Toxicity is out of control

It keeps getting worse

Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.

Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.
Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.

All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

Do you have any actual experience in a raid group? Of any player type, not just these theoretical sweaty ones? Or were you kicked from one and just decided to never try again. The only toxicity im seeing is people who say things like the above.

FYI
"And this is where it really stops making sense: why do 12 random players who don’t know each other, have no coordination, and no shared expectations, have access to detailed logs and real-time DPS data in a simple pug run? In that environment, those tools have almost no constructive value. You’re not analyzing optimized rotations or coordinated strategies. More often than not, the data gets used to single people out, blame them for wipes, or make them the target of jokes."

I use logs to see dps in every run im in to do a better job next time. Especially if someone is out parsing me. ALSO logs are anonymous unless you turned your name on in the game settings. Which any one with experience with logs would know.

Maybe go find a beginner friendly trial guild instead of just being angry? I suggest For The Clear or Blackfeather academy discords.

DarkStrifeYT · April 24

If I see a player being toxic I just simply ask: "Bad day?"

Just enjoy what ever happens next.

Lagzee · April 24

merevie wrote: »

Most of us do our best to tolerate and understand toxic players and because of that we're really reluctant to 'out' people or report them -we know this game is an escape outlet for people and they need it. However, there are some communities where it is horrible to be due to perma banned players coming back on known new accounts and Zos turning a blind eye. And we're talking about seriously awful things behind those bans.

What this is resulting in is the victims of these people giving up on ESO and giving up on their friend communities.

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

Whats the difference between blocking the player and the account? unless you mean like blocking the same person on different accounts, and then i have to wonder how would they even do that? Ive never even heard of a game doing that.

This just seems like a strange thing to ask for, unless im misunderstanding it. If you dont want to talk to someone just block them. If another account says something you dont like, block them too. my ignore list is like 6 people, and ive put thousands of hours into this game over like 10 years.

And even still, every one of my ignores come from people who would trash talk me and then insta block me, and then continue to trash talk me here and there. Which in my experience is something exclusive to the PC community.

I think people should take a look at their ignore list and see how long it is. And if its extremely long then maybe its time to start looking inward and ask why its like that.

Over the years I've heard of people asking for the ignore list to be increased, and i really have to ask myself who is the real problem here? Average players dont usually feel the need to ignore hundreds of people. Just a thought.

And if there is someone actually making new accounts to constantly trash talk you, which i have never heard of, then you should take solace in knowing they are spending money only for you to click a button and make the whole endeavor pointless.

Athory · April 24

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.
People want to show off their DPS.

They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.

Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?
Toxicity is out of control

It keeps getting worse

Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.

Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.
Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.

All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

Do you have any actual experience in a raid group? Of any player type, not just these theoretical sweaty ones? Or were you kicked from one and just decided to never try again. The only toxicity im seeing is people who say things like the above.

FYI
"And this is where it really stops making sense: why do 12 random players who don’t know each other, have no coordination, and no shared expectations, have access to detailed logs and real-time DPS data in a simple pug run? In that environment, those tools have almost no constructive value. You’re not analyzing optimized rotations or coordinated strategies. More often than not, the data gets used to single people out, blame them for wipes, or make them the target of jokes."

I use logs to see dps in every run im in to do a better job next time. Especially if someone is out parsing me. ALSO logs are anonymous unless you turned your name on in the game settings. Which any one with experience with logs would know.

Maybe go find a beginner friendly trial guild instead of just being angry? I suggest For The Clear or Blackfeather academy discords.

lol? Angry?! I don’t care if you use logs to improve, and I don’t care if someone outperforms you, me, or anyone else. I care about the game, and what I see is exactly what I say.

This is not about me, and it never has been. I really don’t care anymore about “the me part.” I already have everything I want—absolutely everything. There’s nothing I wish to have at this moment. I only join pugs to help the group, not to farm items or anything like that.

Angry? Why should I be? They don’t gatekeep me, they never did… well, maybe one or two players. But in general? No one gatekeeps me in pugs, whether I play HA, 2 bars, or healer.

I respect your opinion, and I’m 100% sure that ZoS will never remove these tools, even if they’re bad for the game in general. In casual play, pugs, casual Discords, and guilds, all this DPS sharing and logging mostly serves to mock, gatekeep, and exclude players—nothing else.

You have a different opinion? That’s fine. I have my own, and it comes from someone who plays almost 10 hours a day, mostly in pugs through the group finder. And this is exactly what I see.
You don’t like it? Well, me neither… we both have to live with it. But I’ll keep expressing my opinion, whether you like it or not.