In regards to the nerf calls from the dueling perspective, if pvp'ers aren't willing to share what build is getting these results then people aren't going to take things seriously. If you aren't willing to share that information, so people can figure out what part of the build is the issue, how do you expect people to respond? I am looking forward to using werewolf as it is currently presented on PTS, just like I was DK last patch, and I have been around for its buffs and nerfs over the years and am excited to dust it off again, so vague and broad 'it's overpowered, here's video' doesn't help define what you're expecting ZOS to do to deal with it or giving others the information they need to understand what you're hoping for. This behavior of "its my super secret build, don't copy" doesn't help the discussion.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

Pretty sure you've also proclaimed yourself to be the GOAT of ESO.

Pretty sure I haven't; I only claim what I accomplish, not what I or anyone else thinks about me. Silly thing to be ranking yourself or others without a competitive metric - this is what I always say when people ask me to rank myself or other players.

Sounds like you've been listening to some fanfic about me because that's not the first time someone says that.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I'm not going to address people not part of this conversation, but you're telling me you've won one tournament... 5 years ago. On NA. Ok, congrats.

Yes, on NA 5 years ago when I still participated in dueling tourneys, when the dueling scene was actually big on PC NA, when I still had 100 ping before I moved somewhere else far away from NA server. I currently play with 300 ping, with frequent CC bug, lag, and timezone difference. I'm not going thru all of that trouble to sit in a 5 hour dueling tourney that starts at 4:30 AM lol.

Right, I really don't care about all the excuses.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

Yes, I have, on the PTS where we're supposed to test the newest rework. All of my opinion have been for the PTS. I am fully aware of how weak WW is on the Live server.

Right, so this is basically the first time you're playing werewolf and your knowledge of it is based off of what other people who also probably didn't touch werewolf in 5+ years say about it. Alright.

As the newest thing it must of course be op and needs to be nerfed to the ground, just like DK inhale, sorc hardened ward and so many other things... I'm already predicting a "nerf warden" post for Update 51.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? You've won one tournament in 2021 and other than that it's just a bunch of friends calling you "the best stamina sorcerer" or whatever.

I am. I won a tournament on my stamsorc against some of the best PC NA duelers on their magplar and magdk (which were the best dueling classes at the time).

I also know the game pretty well, mechanic wise and theorycrafting wise. Again, a lot of people have given me that title. Not only my friends. I've had people from EU come to me for build advice. This is not tooting my own horns. I'm simply just stating what has happened over the years. You don't have to believe it lol

Well, the last part is true.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

I've tested hundreds of builds, what do you mean?

The skill level doesnt' improve over time. Powercreep does. You're acting like people now are better than people 5 years ago when it's literally the exact same. 5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true.

Believe it or not, the skill level does and has massively improved over time - I can personally say me 5 years ago would get farmed by me today in equal gear etc.

This is also very apparent if you watch any older PvP videos from people and fast forward to today, people (without naming any names) who were considered mechanically skilled back in the days would be nothing special today.

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

Pretty sure you've also proclaimed yourself to be the GOAT of ESO.

Pretty sure I haven't; I only claim what I accomplish, not what I or anyone else thinks about me. Silly thing to be ranking yourself or others without a competitive metric - this is what I always say when people ask me to rank myself or other players.

Sounds like you've been listening to some fanfic about me because that's not the first time someone says that.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I'm not going to address people not part of this conversation, but you're telling me you've won one tournament... 5 years ago. On NA. Ok, congrats.

Yes, on NA 5 years ago when I still participated in dueling tourneys, when the dueling scene was actually big on PC NA, when I still had 100 ping before I moved somewhere else far away from NA server. I currently play with 300 ping, with frequent CC bug, lag, and timezone difference. I'm not going thru all of that trouble to sit in a 5 hour dueling tourney that starts at 4:30 AM lol.

Right, I really don't care about all the excuses.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

Yes, I have, on the PTS where we're supposed to test the newest rework. All of my opinion have been for the PTS. I am fully aware of how weak WW is on the Live server.

Right, so this is basically the first time you're playing werewolf and your knowledge of it is based off of what other people who also probably didn't touch werewolf in 5+ years say about it. Alright.

As the newest thing it must of course be op and needs to be nerfed to the ground, just like DK inhale, sorc hardened ward and so many other things... I'm already predicting a "nerf warden" post for Update 51.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? You've won one tournament in 2021 and other than that it's just a bunch of friends calling you "the best stamina sorcerer" or whatever.

I am. I won a tournament on my stamsorc against some of the best PC NA duelers on their magplar and magdk (which were the best dueling classes at the time).

I also know the game pretty well, mechanic wise and theorycrafting wise. Again, a lot of people have given me that title. Not only my friends. I've had people from EU come to me for build advice. This is not tooting my own horns. I'm simply just stating what has happened over the years. You don't have to believe it lol

Well, the last part is true.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

I've tested hundreds of builds, what do you mean?

The skill level doesnt' improve over time. Powercreep does. You're acting like people now are better than people 5 years ago when it's literally the exact same. 5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true.

Believe it or not, the skill level does and has massively improved over time - I can personally say me 5 years ago would get farmed by me today in equal gear etc.

This is also very apparent if you watch any older PvP videos from people and fast forward to today, people (without naming any names) who were considered mechanically skilled back in the days would be nothing special today.

No one gets nerfed. Only Sorc, as usual. If they actually nerf the Sorc masteries without compensation but leave DK as it is, then I have no words left.

First off, thank you ZOS so much for improving the werewolf experience! I have been petitioning for this since 1 year after launch. I have to pinch myself that its happening haha. So, thank you!

I recently installed the PTS and immediately checked out the new werewolf features! WOW incredible so far. The audio and visuals alone make it 10x better for me. After soloing three hard dungeons and traveling endlessly on all fours all across Tamerial with NO WEREWOLF TIMER (THANK YOU SO MUCH), i have a couple thoughts.

Visuals: Berserker - I love everything about this model besides the red scars on the arms. little too blood makica feeling and not enough berserker werewolf for me. The height is wonderful! fur texture, wonderful! Eyes, wonderful! (I haven't played pack leader so i won't comment)

Animations: Running - i LOVVE the running animation. A few years back i made a ESO forums post called "Werewolf and Vampire travel Forms". The basic idea of that post was to allow us more RP for werewolf and vampires. removing the werewolf timer out of combat and creating a whole new running animation FITS THE BILL for me. I'm thrilled with that. Running on all fours is ESSENTIAL for me. It wouldn't feel like a werewolf if it didn't sprint on all fours. Details matter, thank you for getting that right.

FEW COMBAT ANIMATION BUGS - I noticed with the "feral Pounce" ability that one of the morphs has no audio and looks a bit clunky. Love the cone idea though. The channeled claw attack morph looks like the werewolves' shoulders are dislocated when striking over and over to me. AMAZING combat skill but i think the animation needs a bit of tuning if at all possible.
The bite skill is by far my favorite! the audio, the feeling of tearing out a chunk of flesh is really there with this skill. 10/10.

Werewolf Sprint Speeds - As I mentioned, running on all fours is ESSENTIAL as a werewolf. you have nailed the animation and audio! I think since we are finally able to traverse the world as a werewolf unencumbered by a timer, maybe increase werewolf sprint speeds to match a mount speed OUT OF COMBAT. Maybe The speed of your werewolf is determined by your actual current mount speed. This would sure allow players to fully immerse and feel like were running at true werewolf speeds.

Audio - MY GOSH the audio. Amazing! the feeding audio is the least impressive to me, but it makes up for it after the wolf is done feeding. He shakes his head and lets out a true beastly grunt. SO satisfying.

One of the werewolves kill cams (savage...something? I can't remember the name) is just a big howl at your target that kills them. I think this might need some work. At the least pick a different audio for the howl. Something more savage. great Idea with those kill cams though. I'm LOVING Them.

Combat - I honestly am Very satisfied with the state of the werewolf combat. plenty of sustain, Heals, bleeds and abilities like the channeled claw attack to utilize other armor sets like deadly ECT. This is the one Area I don't have any notes on. YOU GUYS KILLED IT.

conclusion - As you can probably tell I'm very passionate about werewolves but also about ESO. I have been playing since launch. From the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU! all these changes, refreshes, updates! making the necessary changes to modernize and make ESO relevant to VET and New players. I can tell who ever worked on this werewolf refresh, that they are just as passionate as I am about Werewolves in ESO. Thank you for taking the time to ask your community for feedback and ACTUALLY take it into account. What a TIME to be ALIVE as a werewolf fan. THANK YOU!

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:



Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s




Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Nothing I said was incorrect or invalid here? This is what was initially requested if your ‘party’. I beg your finest pardon.

I’m not watching 17 min of this drek when it isn’t this wasn’t what was requested but just a humble 20 seconds in (00:00:20-00:00:30) you can already see a player (again this is a proof video with NO information for self or opponent) that is just lost. They just used one pounce and then broke down and completely forgot they had anything including a CC.

And? You cherry picked a 10s clip in an 18 min compilation showing real fights against multiple top duelers. What happened in the remaining 1080 seconds of the clip HUH? Are we gonna ignore those parts?

That was literally 20 seconds in. I didn’t cherry-pick anything xD. May want to use AI to figure out what that means.

hoangdz wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=8Q5JJlAFGSl5P2XD

Can we put this 'is it WW or is it Sorc?' debate to bed now?

Would love for this thread to go back to general Werewolf feedback, as there's all kinds of bugs and weirdness going on with it RN that could use detailed feedback for both PvE and PvP and everything else, but instead we got endless pages of petty back and forth that should probably go in a thread of it's own at this point.

WW is still broken in PvP. My original concern was for PvP. This debate still goes on.

This thing, you quoted here (the video) is showing a legitimate 220k parse for sorc rn, haha.

Sorc class mastery OP 0.o

You have to be ragebaiting. That’s it you won. I’m done entertaining this lol

According to you, everyone that responds to you with a different opinion or perspective is rage baiting. Perhaps, maybe, you are the only one feeling the rage (THE BEAST) within.

I'm perfectly fine with people having a different opinion. The rage bait comment is specifically for you lol. You cherrypicked a 20 second clip in an 18 minute 30 seconds long video as your "evidence", while ignoring the other 18 minutes of proper data that also refuted your claim. Even if the opponent in your cherry-picked sample didn't know what to do, the remaining 18 minutes showed competent players dying to this WW build. This is why I said you were rage baiting.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

can tank that kind of damage

Why are you trying to tank the damage and not avoid it with Streak and ranged attacks? I think this is the big disconnect between dueling and open world. There's also the issue that long extended 1v1 almost never happens in normal open world gameplay.

Yes dueling is relevant to open world, but 1v1 engagements in open world are short, and players disengage when the fight stalemates or when they are overmatched. If a WW player threatens me that much in open world I can easily disengage with Streak. The WW player can be zerged down from range, or avoided until their timer runs out for an easy kill.

If next pts update hits and random jank WW is trivially doing 8k then fine I'll say it's op. But a good player doing 4-6k on a non optimized build is not cause for concern to me. You say 40k hp like it's a big deal, so what, my StamSorc did 8k while wearing 3 Swift jewelry, in 8-10 second kills that look near exactly like actual open world engagements. Not a controlled parse.

You think everyone runs streak and ranged attacks?

Overamera wrote: »

You think everyone runs streak and ranged attacks?

No, but I think it's excellent for the game that WW completely rips apart the guys who cry when they can't stand still infinitely healing through everything.

Jammy420 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

Did you miss the 10k dps metrics already posted on this thread?

Those were parses, not actual fights. See my post #167 above for actual fights vs WW. Can confirm that simply avoiding their attacks drastically reduces WW damage.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

As for sorc mastery, I think simply adding a condition "when dealing direct or shock damage" would effectively prevent werewolves from abusing sorc mastery.

NO. Pressure is finally competitive with burst again. The meta needs effective tools to punish stationary turtling and deny fight resets. Static Reverb, DK, and WW do exactly that.

It has always been like this. Burst players will NEVER accept that dots can be on par with their playstyle.

uh we were literally in the longest dot meta prior to subclassing

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

Pretty sure you've also proclaimed yourself to be the GOAT of ESO.

Pretty sure I haven't; I only claim what I accomplish, not what I or anyone else thinks about me. Silly thing to be ranking yourself or others without a competitive metric - this is what I always say when people ask me to rank myself or other players.

Sounds like you've been listening to some fanfic about me because that's not the first time someone says that.

I have screenshots of you claiming you're the #1 player. I'm not posting them here as it would violate ToS.

So you have a screenshot of a 2020 whisper sent to a streamsniper after literally hours of harassment? Don't worry, I can describe it. Glad to know what you and the discords you frequent are up to though, explains a lot.

I believe that screenshot said "best nightblade" (in all caps) and a bunch of profanities... yeah, not a happy incident that, 6 years ago. Best you've got?


I get that you're not a fan, but what do any of these narratives people invent about me have to do with werewolf? I'm well aware I have a lot of haters, counting on them for ad revenue.

I don't know where that screenshot happened, as it was randomly sent in a server discord, but it's pretty funny that you remember exactly what that screenshot was. Pretty interesting if you ask me. Anyways, what was said in that screenshot was:

You: "I'll keep getting #1s in every competitive leaderboard in this game meanwhile"
Other person: "Lol where?"
You: "everywhere? archives, card game - maybe pay attention to the names in the game you play "

Sounds pretty elitist if you ask me.

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I'm not going to address people not part of this conversation, but you're telling me you've won one tournament... 5 years ago. On NA. Ok, congrats.

Yes, on NA 5 years ago when I still participated in dueling tourneys, when the dueling scene was actually big on PC NA, when I still had 100 ping before I moved somewhere else far away from NA server. I currently play with 300 ping, with frequent CC bug, lag, and timezone difference. I'm not going thru all of that trouble to sit in a 5 hour dueling tourney that starts at 4:30 AM lol.

Right, I really don't care about all the excuses.

ESO isn't my job, so I'm not going out of my way to partake in something that doesn't earn me money. I would if it's fun, but dueling tourneys haven't been fun for the past 4 years, so nope on that too. Not an excuse, just facts. I also heard that ESO is your job, so that's fair you think that way, but don't project that on me lol.

Still don't care about excuses.

I mean I'd care too if it was my job. Understandable.

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

Yes, I have, on the PTS where we're supposed to test the newest rework. All of my opinion have been for the PTS. I am fully aware of how weak WW is on the Live server.

Right, so this is basically the first time you're playing werewolf and your knowledge of it is based off of what other people who also probably didn't touch werewolf in 5+ years say about it. Alright.

As the newest thing it must of course be op and needs to be nerfed to the ground, just like DK inhale, sorc hardened ward and so many other things... I'm already predicting a "nerf warden" post for Update 51.

This is where it matters, PTS WW. In fact, I could make the argument that WW is OP because I only have 1 hour of experience, yet I am still able to kill a lot of people who were experienced in their class and also in proper builds. A person with almost zero knowledge of a particular class should never be able to kill most players on said class, regardless of how good that person is.

One can go duel people naked and still win, doesn't really say much about the build or whether something is op or not. I believe certain I individual did do that on NA a few years back... An EU player if I recall correctly.

That's besides the point though, the point is that if you haven't played werewolf on Live and your friends haven't played werewolf on Live, then you have no comparison point, no idea of where it's problem areas and strengths lie and absolutely no clue of its open world/GvG potential etc.

I mean, this is why you're still adamant werewolf is a problem and not sorcerer werewolf. Knowledge gap, once again.

"One can go duel people naked and still win". Sure, wanna make a bet? You enter a duel vs me and other NA players wearing no gear while we're in full gear. Let's see how that turns out. The server diss is pretty hilarious. I've went on EU and farmed a bunch of people there too. This is normal among good duelers, nothing new.

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? You've won one tournament in 2021 and other than that it's just a bunch of friends calling you "the best stamina sorcerer" or whatever.

I am. I won a tournament on my stamsorc against some of the best PC NA duelers on their magplar and magdk (which were the best dueling classes at the time).

I also know the game pretty well, mechanic wise and theorycrafting wise. Again, a lot of people have given me that title. Not only my friends. I've had people from EU come to me for build advice. This is not tooting my own horns. I'm simply just stating what has happened over the years. You don't have to believe it lol

Well, the last part is true.

And I don't really believe all of your stats either. See how that works both ways?

That's what receipts are for, if I ever make a claim I make sure to record everything. Should I post the receipts again? You've seen them before I'm sure.

You can if you want, and I can post mine too, but that would be comparing *** sizes. Let's just keep it at that, you believe whatever and I believe whatever.

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

I've tested hundreds of builds, what do you mean?

The skill level doesnt' improve over time. Powercreep does. You're acting like people now are better than people 5 years ago when it's literally the exact same. 5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true.

Believe it or not, the skill level does and has massively improved over time - I can personally say me 5 years ago would get farmed by me today in equal gear etc.

This is also very apparent if you watch any older PvP videos from people and fast forward to today, people (without naming any names) who were considered mechanically skilled back in the days would be nothing special today.

There is a skill cap in the game. If you reached it back then, you're not going to magically be better now. Builds do get better though, hence the power creep issue I mentioned. I mean, if you somehow convinced every in Alikir and Stormhaven to run the same stats that builds had back then, nothing would've looked different if we put them side by side.

Well that explains a lot of the nerf threads.

You believe you've reached a "skill cap" and can't improve... the classic.

I could point out that even after 12 years & 28k hours I'm still learning new things about the game, but I guess that just means I haven't reached the mythical "skill cap" - you'll know you've reached this when you start making nerf threads about every other build. Makes sense.

The "skill cap" in question here are general mechanics (weaving, sustain management, game sense) and specific mechanics with a certain class (how the class is played). Since ESO isn't my job, I prefer to play what I enjoy, which is stamsorc and sorc in general. I've reached the specific skill cap for that class as well as for general mechanics. I mean, we can always test this on PTS in a duel, with both wearing stat builds and playing on non-reworked classes.

The rest that could be improved is theorycrafting. I mean sure if you count that as a skill, then there's always new builds to try, but the problem with that is there's always going to be good sets and bad sets. Wearing bad sets against good players => you lose. You're not improving anything. You're just playing a bad build.

I mean it doesn't take much for an experienced player to know when something is broken. You're clearly the only experienced PvPer here who thinks WW is fine, while pretty much every other good player thinks otherwise. IDK, that speaks a lot lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

Pretty sure you've also proclaimed yourself to be the GOAT of ESO.

Pretty sure I haven't; I only claim what I accomplish, not what I or anyone else thinks about me. Silly thing to be ranking yourself or others without a competitive metric - this is what I always say when people ask me to rank myself or other players.

Sounds like you've been listening to some fanfic about me because that's not the first time someone says that.

I have screenshots of you claiming you're the #1 player. I'm not posting them here as it would violate ToS.

So you have a screenshot of a 2020 whisper sent to a streamsniper after literally hours of harassment? Don't worry, I can describe it. Glad to know what you and the discords you frequent are up to though, explains a lot.

I believe that screenshot said "best nightblade" (in all caps) and a bunch of profanities... yeah, not a happy incident that, 6 years ago. Best you've got?


I get that you're not a fan, but what do any of these narratives people invent about me have to do with werewolf? I'm well aware I have a lot of haters, counting on them for ad revenue.

I don't know where that screenshot happened, as it was randomly sent in a server discord, but it's pretty funny that you remember exactly what that screenshot was. Pretty interesting if you ask me. Anyways, what was said in that screenshot was:

You: "I'll keep getting #1s in every competitive leaderboard in this game meanwhile"
Other person: "Lol where?"
You: "everywhere? archives, card game - maybe pay attention to the names in the game you play "

Sounds pretty elitist if you ask me.

Ah, that's a different one - funny someone decided to screenshot that because there's nothing incorrect there. I do have #1s in every competitive leaderboard in this game, care to see the screenshots?

That's not me "proclaiming" anything, just stating facts to someone disrespectful... facts that clearly bother some people


Nothing elitist about that, everyone's opinions matter and that has always been my stance - MMORPGs can't cater to only tryhards and still be successful.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

Yes, I have, on the PTS where we're supposed to test the newest rework. All of my opinion have been for the PTS. I am fully aware of how weak WW is on the Live server.

Right, so this is basically the first time you're playing werewolf and your knowledge of it is based off of what other people who also probably didn't touch werewolf in 5+ years say about it. Alright.

As the newest thing it must of course be op and needs to be nerfed to the ground, just like DK inhale, sorc hardened ward and so many other things... I'm already predicting a "nerf warden" post for Update 51.

This is where it matters, PTS WW. In fact, I could make the argument that WW is OP because I only have 1 hour of experience, yet I am still able to kill a lot of people who were experienced in their class and also in proper builds. A person with almost zero knowledge of a particular class should never be able to kill most players on said class, regardless of how good that person is.

One can go duel people naked and still win, doesn't really say much about the build or whether something is op or not. I believe certain I individual did do that on NA a few years back... An EU player if I recall correctly.

That's besides the point though, the point is that if you haven't played werewolf on Live and your friends haven't played werewolf on Live, then you have no comparison point, no idea of where it's problem areas and strengths lie and absolutely no clue of its open world/GvG potential etc.

I mean, this is why you're still adamant werewolf is a problem and not sorcerer werewolf. Knowledge gap, once again.

"One can go duel people naked and still win". Sure, wanna make a bet? You enter a duel vs me and other NA players wearing no gear while we're in full gear. Let's see how that turns out. The server diss is pretty hilarious. I've went on EU and farmed a bunch of people there too. This is normal among good duelers, nothing new.

So you're telling me people can go on PTS right now and go duel less experienced players/people on bad builds and post some big DPS numbers? No way.


The "server diss" is only a response to the... let's just call it "circular glazing" of certain NA players here, as if you're the only ones whose opinions matter.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

I've tested hundreds of builds, what do you mean?

The skill level doesnt' improve over time. Powercreep does. You're acting like people now are better than people 5 years ago when it's literally the exact same. 5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true.

Believe it or not, the skill level does and has massively improved over time - I can personally say me 5 years ago would get farmed by me today in equal gear etc.

This is also very apparent if you watch any older PvP videos from people and fast forward to today, people (without naming any names) who were considered mechanically skilled back in the days would be nothing special today.

There is a skill cap in the game. If you reached it back then, you're not going to magically be better now. Builds do get better though, hence the power creep issue I mentioned. I mean, if you somehow convinced every in Alikir and Stormhaven to run the same stats that builds had back then, nothing would've looked different if we put them side by side.

Well that explains a lot of the nerf threads.

You believe you've reached a "skill cap" and can't improve... the classic.

I could point out that even after 12 years & 28k hours I'm still learning new things about the game, but I guess that just means I haven't reached the mythical "skill cap" - you'll know you've reached this when you start making nerf threads about every other build. Makes sense.

The "skill cap" in question here are general mechanics (weaving, sustain management, game sense) and specific mechanics with a certain class (how the class is played). Since ESO isn't my job, I prefer to play what I enjoy, which is stamsorc and sorc in general. I've reached the specific skill cap for that class as well as for general mechanics. I mean, we can always test this on PTS in a duel, with both wearing stat builds and playing on non-reworked classes.

The rest that could be improved is theorycrafting. I mean sure if you count that as a skill, then there's always new builds to try, but the problem with that is there's always going to be good sets and bad sets. Wearing bad sets against good players => you lose. You're not improving anything. You're just playing a bad build.

I mean it doesn't take much for an experienced player to know when something is broken. You're clearly the only experienced PvPer here who thinks WW is fine, while pretty much every other good player thinks otherwise. IDK, that speaks a lot lol.

No offense but from what I've seen/read... you have not reached any "cap". If you want to talk mechanics, go record a double speed jump with heavy weave inbetween, or record a duel with "Weave Delays" addon on screen, you'll see how "skill capped" you are after all.

Complacency is the enemy of progress, one can always improve as long as you're trying to find ways to improve.

Also as stated multiple times... I do think sorcerer werewolf is broken, but you wouldn't want them to blanket nerf every werewolf ability because one specific combination of things is broken.

One has to be specific about what is broken so that it can be balanced accordingly, rather than providing ambiguous misleading statements that don't result in a more balanced, fun game in the end.


Also, I highly doubt I'm the "only experienced PvPer" providing this feedback - I've seen a lot of people write pretty much what I just wrote... but I guess unless they have an established reputation they must automatically be bad at the game etc etc.

This kind of dismissive statement is once again the exact elitism that's very off-putting.

Ataskir wrote: »

You guys are barely taking about werewolf feedback anymore, I feel like this is something that could be moved privates DMs or whatever.

Like, we get it, y’all don’t have to bury the feedback in the feedback thread with this back and forth drivel.

Trust me, I 100% agree and didn't start this nonsense... been still trying to kinda steer the conversation back into the werewolf discussion when replying to all the personal attacks etc, would be nice to focus on that and not skill level or experience of other players or what they've whispered/said to someone else years ago etc.

Lycanthrope1997 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years.

Also, you are treading into topics you have zero knowledge about. I have spent a considerable amount of time dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and I have NEVER seen your name there. You clearly do not know what a normal DPS value looks like in a duel, nor do you know what's bad or unhealthy DPS. So let me give you some baseline DPS values going forward so we can stop spewing false information:

Bad DPS:
<2k for burst builds
<3k for pressure builds

With this DPS, the only people you're going to kill are complete newbies. If you consistently pull <2k DPS, then there are only 2 scenarios:

1) Your opponent's pressure is so great that you're permanently stuck on back bar.
2) You genuinely have bad mechanics

I have done <2.5k DPS before on my burst build, but that was against a full cancer build with 7k+ DPS. I was basically stuck on back bar 80% of the fight trying to survive. Most people who do <2k-3k DPS generally fall into the 2nd category.

Average DPS:
2k - 2.5k for burst builds
3.5k - 4k for pressure builds

This is where the majority of the playerbase sits at. You have just enough damage to kill other average players, but not enough to kill better ones. The only exception is a pure burst build, which often deals around 3k - 3.5k DPS but can still have the potential to 100-0 someone. The requirement is that you must have exceptional mechanics to kill better players.

Good DPS:
2.5k - 3.5k for burst builds
4k- 4.5k for pressure builds

If your DPS falls in this range, you're above average. Generally, you will win 6-7/10 of your fights with this kind of DPS (8-9/10 if you have exceptional mechanics). The people you're going to lose to are:

1) Those with significantly more DPS
2) Those better than you
3) Those outplaying you

This category is where average players with pressure duel builds and top tier ones with burst builds live. The DPS advantage of pressure duel builds often allow average players to achieve greater DPS than their mechanics alllow, while top-tier players make up for the lack of DPS with their mechanics.

This is where I normally sit at. My burst build can consistently deal 3.5k-4.5k DPS to most people if I weave perfectly (even exceeding some people on pressure builds), but I don't have enough pressure to push past 4.5k unless my opponent is extremely squishy.

Excellent DPS:
4k - 4.5k for burst builds
5k - 5.5k for pressure builds

If you're in this category, then you will win 9/10 of your duels. This is where the top 1% of duelers are at. Go to Stormhaven and you'll maybe find 1-2 people who can achieve this level of DPS.

To achieve this stage, you must have excellent mechanics and a min-maxed build partly specced for dueling. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% a dueling build, but the stats on it should be very high and maximized, and parts of the skills/gears should lean towards 1v1s. Something like Zaan/Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/Monomyth can easily achieve >4.5k DPS with top-tier mechanics. Some classes can make it easier to reach this DPS (DK for example), but you'll still need very good weaving/rotations to consistently pull off 5k- 5.5k DPS.

I sometimes reach 5k DPS on my burst build, but only if my opponent is extremely squishy.

Top-tier DPS:
>5.5k to <6.5k

If you have this DPS, then congratulations, you're in a very small group of duelers who barely lose. The only losses you take are from getting outplayed by someone on or better than your skill level AND with similar DPS. Most Stormhaven duels feel pretty boring for you.

To achieve this level, you must have nigh-perfect weaving and a min-maxed build mostly specced for dueling. Your skills and gears should be used strictly for 1v1 fights. This is where you will see builds incorporate several proc sets and duel skills (like Trap Beast, Unstable Core, etc.)

Uncounterable DPS:
>6.5k

At this stage, you don't lose. Most fights last less than 30 seconds, with some taking as little as 5 seconds. Fights at this stage become a healing check for your opponent. People simply do not have the healing or defense to survive your damage at all. The only losses you incur are from self-mistakes, nothing more. People could be doing their absolute best and you would still obliterate them.

To achieve this stage, you need to have nigh-perfect mechanics and a build purely specced for dueling. However, some builds are just so cancer than you only need to have decent mechanics and still pull 6.5k+ DPS. Pyrebrand/Rele DK is a prime example.

The highest DPS build I've fought against before U49-U50 was Pyrebrand/Rele DK, reaching 7k DPS. That build had 29k HP and 4 damage CPs. U50 WW is almost reaching that DPS with 40k HP, no class mastery passives and the 33% WD modifier. To claim that WW is somehow similar to builds in previous patches is an absurd statement.

I been playing since launch. I have seen builds one shot players like old Oakensoul DKs. Warden Northern Storm cheese. Arcanist was doing crazy status effect damage at one point. DKs can still one shot you. Heck even the sub class meta was one shotting players. Werewolf becomes strong again or has the potential to be then everyone wants to nerf it lol. Yet we see PvE sorcs hitting up to 211k Damage on a parse.

And none of those things you mentioned have anything in common.
You elevate Sorc doing 211k damage on a dummy to the same level as one shotting in pvp? Even though it gets repeated often that Sorc doing dummy damage has never meant anything. It is still not brought into any relevant pve content. Meanwhile 1 shotting in pvp is a real and tangible threat, not what some fool does against a static object.

hoangdz wrote: »

I mean it doesn't take much for an experienced player to know when something is broken.

Last PTS you said DK was broken. It's not. It's clearly the new standard, and as far as I can tell, players liked the U49 meta much more than the subclass animal assassin meta.

So no, being experienced doesn't make you prescient, good players can be wrong due to bias or incomplete information just like anyone else, me or you.

Dracane wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Also as stated multiple times... I do think sorcerer werewolf is broken, but you wouldn't want them to blanket nerf every werewolf ability because one specific combination of things is broken.

One has to be specific about what is broken so that it can be balanced accordingly, rather than providing ambiguous misleading statements that don't result in a more balanced, fun game in the end.

What I want even less is an entire class being nerfed because of a broken Werewolf interaction; a very niche playstyle that we can be thankful even exists at all. These two have not the same gravitas. One is more important than the other.

LOL wow okay, that's all I have to say. Just LOL.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I mean it doesn't take much for an experienced player to know when something is broken.

Last PTS you said DK was broken. It's not. It's clearly the new standard, and as far as I can tell, players liked the U49 meta much more than the subclass animal assassin meta.

So no, being experienced doesn't make you prescient, good players can be wrong due to bias or incomplete information just like anyone else, me or you.

"It's not".

Perfect case of rejecting reality and conforming to biasness.

It's whatever lol, you do you.