U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Ishkaral · April 19

I just came back to check the game after long time quitted
For me as someohe who play from another side of the world the issue of desynced and ping issue still there and still make game combat super clunky (Normally is about 300 ping using VPN such as Exitlag and No Ping, ping will be reduced to around 250) since the last update that change the damage calculation and hit check to be in server revamp long time ago.

-I experienced the skills are not function normally [Every skills on skill bar after pressed there is no response sometimes within combat]
-The ultimate value and new points that change the werewolf ulti to become rage mode does not appear or function properly -> it will not change the button or the number is moving, most likely from desynced
-With skill can swaps to mode alternate mode made the desync more unfun to me

Watching youtube vid : hey that looks pretty good change!!!
Come back to try myself : Yeeeeah still sucks! I play significantly different game from the others [Only happen to this game for some reason that ping have significant impact and the desynced issue caused a lot of trouble during combat]

With old ancient build bloodmoon + releq + spider monster head in the live server : 49.9k dps
Same setting with the PTS server : 56.5k dps
Yeah I know the build is too ancient and needs to update but also giving up to play on to get the highest performance with the ping and desync issue that game still have for me

Update
On live : experience trying to play random dungeon, playing as werewolf and got desynced inside of dungeon can only auto attack and this made me want to reconsider coming back to this game that still have this kind of issue since the ancient time and still carry on to the current patch

Chrlynsch · April 19

PTS PVP Observation – ESO Update 50

From testing on the Update 50 PTS, werewolf performance in PvP, especially dueling, feels heavily defined by a DPS vs HPS feedback loop.

In a duel scenario, werewolf is operating in what is essentially its ideal environment:

- Constant target access
- Near 100% uptime
- Easy fury/enrage/ultimate sustain to maintain form

This is even more pronounced in U50 because sustaining werewolf form is now significantly smoother, with ultimate generation continuing while transformed and upkeep tied into the ultimate system itself rather than clunky combat conditions. The result is a very stable combat loop where pressure can be maintained almost indefinitely. While offensive sustain is not even a concern. While werewolf excels at burst recovery from counter attacks.

Observation from dueling on PTS:
- As werewolf DPS increases, the opponent is forced into equally high healing per second to survive. This is a different dynamic from other builds which push mild dps pressure and combine with spike dps from ults to finish duels.
- This creates a scaling arms race, higher werewolf pressure directly demands higher defensive output.
- Because the opponent cannot easily disengage, werewolf can fully leverage bleed stacking, light attack pressure, and sustained melee uptime.
-Most likely will get a lot of feels bad man comments and feedback as most players don't want to adjust their play styles or builds to deal with a different threats.

This aligns with the broader U50 design direction of making werewolf more aggressive, fluid, and easier to sustain.

Where the dynamic shifts – Group PvP:

In group PvP, effectiveness noticeably drops, not simply because of a lack of cross-healing or shielding, but because the duel conditions break down:

Loss of uptime: Targets kite, line-of-sight, or get peeled
-Interrupted sustain loop: Even brief disengagement reduces ultimate/Rage generation→ impacts form uptime
-Increased incoming pressure: Multiple attackers overwhelm self-healing
-Disruption: CC, stacking snares and target swapping interrupt bleed stacking and pressure ramp

While Update 50 improves overall fluidity and lowers the burden of maintaining form, it doesn’t fundamentally solve the issue that werewolf is still a single-target, uptime-dependent damage profile.

Final PTS takeaway:
Dueling: Werewolf feels extremely strong—arguably one of its best states ever. The DPS ↔ HPS scaling creates high-pressure, sustained fights where werewolf thrives.

Group PvP: Performance declines as soon as uptime and isolation are lost. The spec struggles to maintain the same pressure without controlled 1v1 conditions.

Bottom line:
On U50 PTS, werewolf excels when it can force a fight on its terms. The further the scenario moves away from a controlled duel, the more its effectiveness drops.

Suggestions:
-Decrease duration of Rampage to 10s, decrease fury cost to 500 to activate.

-Make rampage ult activation not consume a global cooldown to make the shift less clunkily and more seamless. Deactivated the ability to shift out of WW while rampaging, there currently is a 5 second lock out after you activate enrage.

-Increase base ability cost of werewolf abilities. +~20%
-While enraged increase werewolf ability cost by 15%. but keep suspend ult cost when active.

Have pack leader shift heal to AOE when rampaging or/and provided a bonus to the pack in some way drop the health regen.

Make abilities cost Magicka or stamina based off highest stat pool.

Roar should cost should be off-stat.

*Edits changing verbage of Fury and Enrage to match tooltips

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

You keep name dropping Pelican for credibility, so why don't you ask him what it was like fighting me a decade ago when we spent hundreds of hours practicing against each other.

A decade ago =/= now.

I also name dropped Pelican for 2 specific reasons:

1) He primarily makes builds for Cyrodiil
2) He's also currently one of the two WWs dominating everyone on the PTS

He may not be the best overall dueler, but he's one of the few people who's very good at both dueling and openworld PvP. That is why I use him for credibility when discussing overall balance instead of Shoyru (who is arguably the best dueler on PC NA), as he's strictly a duelist. A few people that I know and would also name drop are @React , @Alchimiste1 , and @Grahamster, but they don't play WW on PTS.

xylena wrote: »

I'm attempting to extrapolate dueling performance to open world. You're still only talking about duels. How do you think WW fares against ranged focus fire in open world?

You think I don't extrapolate dueling performance to open world? I test all builds in 1v1s which have all translated pretty well to openworld. WW is no exception. It will do just fine vs ranged focus fire if it runs the right mythic.

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

That is why I use him for credibility when discussing overall balance instead of Shoyru (who is arguably the best dueler on PC NA), as he's strictly a duelist.

You aren't making sense. If you want to appeal to authority in a given field you appeal to the best in that field, not the jack of all trades, which is... idk like half the players ITT are "good" at both dueling and open world, including me and you.

My turn. I name drop @Decimus. He's right over there, why you still talking to me?

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

You aren't making sense. If you want to appeal to authority in a given field you appeal to the best in that field, not the jack of all trades, which is... idk like half the players ITT are "good" at both dueling and open world, including me and you.

Why would I appeal to a duelist when my main focus is balance in both Cyro and dueling? Duelists run the most cancerous builds possible that only work in duels. Openworld players run too much defense and don't provide accurate values either. Pelican, React, and Alchemist are some of the best in that "jack of all trades" field, where you build just enough survivability to 1vX but still have enough damage to compete with most builds in a 1v1 setting. If I wanted the best dueling build I would go to Shoyru. When I want opinion on 1vX builds that can still 1v1, I go to the players mentioned above.

xylena wrote: »

My turn. I name drop @Decimus. He's right over there, why you still talking to me?

Decimus proclaims himself as "the best theorycrafter in the game". Do you know how absurd that statement is lol? Credibility is given through people's perception of you, not your own self-proclamation. I've often been called "Best Stamsorc PC NA" by many people but I still haven't taken that title myself either because I know a few stamsorcs who are either just as experienced or even better. When you call yourself the best you open yourself up to being memed at.

Ataskir · April 19

Alright this is getting silly. Why are y’all summoning people like it’s a yugioh battle?

I’m just going to wait for official responses/changes at this point. It’s hard to take this argument seriously!

Another piece of feedback while I’m here; move the extra speed from rampage into the passive (while also increasing the speed cap for werebeasts), then replace it with a snare immunity. Werewolves being terrible against bad terrain doesn’t make much sense to me, you see.

Wuuffyy · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

That is why I use him for credibility when discussing overall balance instead of Shoyru (who is arguably the best dueler on PC NA), as he's strictly a duelist.

You aren't making sense. If you want to appeal to authority in a given field you appeal to the best in that field, not the jack of all trades, which is... idk like half the players ITT are "good" at both dueling and open world, including me and you.

My turn. I name drop @Decimus. He's right over there, why you still talking to me?

P.S. to all, streamers without numbers should not have authority over my balance. Go to them for builds, not changes they said should occur that will affect millions of players ‘because they said so’ when they clearly have an agenda (they do not think one bar builds should have comparable power to anything i.e. wolf should not be competitive because devs say it must be one bar).

Decimus · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

You aren't making sense. If you want to appeal to authority in a given field you appeal to the best in that field, not the jack of all trades, which is... idk like half the players ITT are "good" at both dueling and open world, including me and you.

Why would I appeal to a duelist when my main focus is balance in both Cyro and dueling? Duelists run the most cancerous builds possible that only work in duels. Openworld players run too much defense and don't provide accurate values either. Pelican, React, and Alchemist are some of the best in that "jack of all trades" field, where you build just enough survivability to 1vX but still have enough damage to compete with most builds in a 1v1 setting. If I wanted the best dueling build I would go to Shoyru. When I want opinion on 1vX builds that can still 1v1, I go to the players mentioned above.

xylena wrote: »

My turn. I name drop @Decimus. He's right over there, why you still talking to me?

Decimus proclaims himself as "the best theorycrafter in the game". Do you know how absurd that statement is lol? Credibility is given through people's perception of you, not your own self-proclamation. I've often been called "Best Stamsorc PC NA" by many people but I still haven't taken that title myself either because I know a few stamsorcs who are either just as experienced or even better. When you call yourself the best you open yourself up to being memed at.

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

Serophous · April 19

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

Chrlynsch · April 19

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

I was hitting 122k - 140k dps with various class Mastery/ subclassing combos.

YandereGirlfriend · April 19

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

There are 160k+ parses floating around w/ Signet and Sorc/DK.

(And that is WITHOUT the WD passive working properly.)

Decimus · April 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

There are 160k+ parses floating around w/ Signet and Sorc.

I'll just drop this here:

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=Dl4pOa_mCssK9HtX

Werewolf might not be the problem people think it is...

YandereGirlfriend · April 19

Decimus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

There are 160k+ parses floating around w/ Signet and Sorc.

I'll just drop this here:
https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=Dl4pOa_mCssK9HtX

Werewolf might not be the problem people think it is...

This isn't the evidence that you think it is.

It is just basic Sorcerer parse cheese which you can find basically every patch. Those "insane" builds are never actually run in content though because all of the damage is single-target and that just is not very valuable in most situations.

The re-worked class set is also doing huge work here but the set is similarly not viable in most PvE environments and is absolutely dead in PvP.

Wuuffyy · April 19

@YandereGirlfriend tagging you regardless but honestly,

This isn't the evidence that you think it is.

-likewise!

Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes - Suggestion

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691459/werewolf-class-mastery-suggestion-please-reply-for-visibility#latest

“Keeping this short and simple- trying to get a suggestion out there regarding werewolf and class mastery. This is essentially a spin of another suggestion I saw in the general werewolf feedback thread so feel free to tag whomever for credit.

-Give werewolf its own ‘class mastery’ line (only while transformed so one may benefit from running pure class- even if not for MAXIMUM efficiency it remains viable).

While transformed, you are unfortunately locked out of standard class mastery in this scenario however can access the same on the werewolf-side for werewolf. To avoid further power spikes (until we post something to live to see actual flow), make these class mastery passives on the lower end of power ‘increases’ and/or more flavor or utility oriented.

As a result, we should keep standard class passives (as we always have), and return weapon passives to us (we need the pen and the movement speed is essential when barred completely from a purge/snare removal).

~I’m sure it’s a bit of work but to me this seems like a fair suggestion and we have ~4-5 weeks to make it happen so seems relatively fair there as well (idk, I don’t code so gl out there!)”

Decimus · April 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

There are 160k+ parses floating around w/ Signet and Sorc.

I'll just drop this here:
https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=Dl4pOa_mCssK9HtX

Werewolf might not be the problem people think it is...

This isn't the evidence that you think it is.

It is just basic Sorcerer parse cheese which you can find basically every patch. Those "insane" builds are never actually run in content though because all of the damage is single-target and that just is not very valuable in most situations.

The re-worked class set is also doing huge work here but the set is similarly not viable in most PvE environments and is absolutely dead in PvP.

It's not super obvious from the video so I'll explain:

The class set alone (which I think is fantastic - big fan of all the class set changes, though templar ones could be stronger still) isn't enough to provide a 70K+ DPS increase compared to pure sorcerer prior to this - the cause of this is the sorcerer class masteries... the same reason why certain werewolf builds overperform (on top of sorcerer already having much better class passives for werewolf than say, warden or necromancer etc).

You can notice how the sorcerer in the video has 40 751 Stamina - this provides you with a 23% modifier on weapon/spell damage applied on top of group buffs (Minor/Major Courage etc) resulting in a huge increase in damage... including the damage of the other class mastery that is doing 9,8% in the CMX parse you can find at the end of the video.

So what does this have to do with werewolf? Well, werewolf similarly gains much more from sorcerer class masteries than any other class ones. While you might find strong werewolf builds out there on other classes, you won't find ones that are grossly overperforming.

Also I just want to mention: based on my experience testing it and fighting people using it on PTS, the sorcerer class set is far from "dead" in PvP and actually extremely strong if built around.

hoangdz · April 19

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential.
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

When it comes to combat balance, you can't just take an opinion of a seasoned PvPer with deep understanding of the game and weigh it the same as someone who barely does PvP or doesn't have that kind of knowledge or mechanics. None of these are elitist by nature, they're just common sense. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

Wuuffyy · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though

. This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

Decimus · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

I'm not going to address people not part of this conversation, but you're telling me you've won one tournament... 5 years ago. On NA. Ok, congrats.

hoangdz wrote: »

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential.

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

hoangdz wrote: »

2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

Are you? You've won one tournament in 2021 and other than that it's just a bunch of friends calling you "the best stamina sorcerer" or whatever.

hoangdz wrote: »

When it comes to combat balance, you can't just take an opinion of a seasoned PvPer with deep understanding of the game and weigh it the same as someone who barely does PvP or doesn't have that kind of knowledge or mechanics. None of these are elitist by nature, they're just common sense. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

you open yourself up to being memed at

"xylena nobody cares what you did many years ago"

"hey guys I won a tournament many years ago"

Jokes aside, you criticize my posts of short duels, but 8-10 second kills are far more representative of actual open world engagements than an extended duel against a tank build.

Wuuffyy · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

you open yourself up to being memed at

"xylena nobody cares what you did many years ago"

"hey guys I won a tournament many years ago"

Jokes aside, you criticize my posts of short duels, but 8-10 second kills are far more representative of actual open world engagements than an extended duel against a tank build.

When people tend to stand still like multiple in that video… they tend to die pretty quickly to anything.

They’ll die in the same or similar time right now to a masterwork spec’d DK or sorc regardless of what differs b/w wolf and nonwolf from what I’m gathering-

so you must advise how this situation differs any differently from those, aside from inherently less burst potential and fixed healing reliant on dealing damage for the werewolf-side I suppose.

Or, you know, the elephant in the room- when someone who really, really wants to win in a 1 v 1 throws on Jerall’s (or however they spell it) since we are basing this on 1v1-ability+ how one-sided just 2 pcs of your gear can make a 1v 1 fight when you really put your mind to it. It’s all coincidental or perspective.

TTK on unskilled/ ‘random’ players (like the video displays) =/ causality, especially when your same-side argument is that DK and sorc are doing the same or similar.

TLDR, your evidence is still lacking A LOT and is primarily based on ‘dueling a bunch’ in Riften, but I acknowledge that this is all anyone over there is willing to provide so here’s a bone—> I have presented a way of barring werewolf from sorc mastery passives without simply gutting werewolf’s ability to have more flavor in their spec as sorc passives clearly have high ‘spike’ value meant to boost it further (as it must need it for pve) found on my post a few or so above this one.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

you open yourself up to being memed at

"xylena nobody cares what you did many years ago"

"hey guys I won a tournament many years ago"

Jokes aside, you criticize my posts of short duels, but 8-10 second kills are far more representative of actual open world engagements than an extended duel against a tank build.

He brought up using tournaments for credibility tho.

hoangdz · April 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s

Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Wuuffyy · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s

Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Nothing I said was incorrect or invalid here? This is what was initially requested of your ‘party’. I beg your finest pardon.

I’m not watching 17 min of this drek when it isn’t this wasn’t what was requested but just a humble 20 seconds in (00:00:20-00:00:30) you can already see a player (again this is a proof video with NO information for self or opponent) that is just lost. They just used one pounce and then broke down and completely forgot they had anything including a CC.

hoangdz · April 19

Decimus wrote: »

Shame you didn't screenshot the context to this deleted forum exchange, because I believe it was a tongue in cheek response to a similarily ridiculous statement, just with the "by results" added in since none of you can ever type that.

Pretty sure you've also proclaimed yourself to be the GOAT of ESO.

Decimus wrote: »

I'm not going to address people not part of this conversation, but you're telling me you've won one tournament... 5 years ago. On NA. Ok, congrats.

Yes, on NA 5 years ago when I still participated in dueling tourneys, when the dueling scene was actually big on PC NA, when I still had 100 ping before I moved somewhere else far away from NA server. I currently play with 300 ping, with frequent CC bug, lag, and timezone difference. I'm not going thru all of that trouble to sit in a 5 hour dueling tourney that starts at 4:30 AM lol.

Also, that's some back-handed server diss there bro. You dissing on the whole server there Deci? Better watch that ego you got.

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? Have you actually played werewolf? Or the people you keep referencing? I played one half the PvP event in January/February, it's actually one of the most difficult playstyles to pull off on Live.

Yes, I have, on the PTS where we're supposed to test the newest rework. All of my opinion have been for the PTS. I am fully aware of how weak WW is on the Live server.

Decimus wrote: »

Are you? You've won one tournament in 2021 and other than that it's just a bunch of friends calling you "the best stamina sorcerer" or whatever.

I am. I won a tournament on my stamsorc against some of the best PC NA duelers on their magplar and magdk (which were the best dueling classes at the time).

I also know the game pretty well, mechanic wise and theorycrafting wise. Again, a lot of people have given me that title. Not only my friends. I've had people from EU come to me for build advice. This is not tooting my own horns. I'm simply just stating what has happened over the years. You don't have to believe it lol

Decimus wrote: »

The problem is that most of the "seasoned PvPers" only play whatever is the strongest build at that moment and have a strong interest in maintaining status quo or seeing other builds and playstyles weakened/unbuffed. Having limited experience playing other builds also means you lack critical insight on how those other playstyles and builds function, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and so on.

People who won a tournament half a decade ago farming squishies in Cyrodiil and telling each other they're the best players ever and everyone else is bad or clueless is precisely the elitism I'm referring to.

I've tested hundreds of builds, what do you mean?

The skill level doesnt' improve over time. Powercreep does. You're acting like people now are better than people 5 years ago when it's literally the exact same. 5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true.

coop500 · April 19

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=8Q5JJlAFGSl5P2XD

Can we put this 'is it WW or is it Sorc?' debate to bed now?

Would love for this thread to go back to general Werewolf feedback, as there's all kinds of bugs and weirdness going on with it RN that could use detailed feedback for both PvE and PvP and everything else, but instead we got endless pages of petty back and forth that should probably go in a thread of it's own at this point.

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

5 years ago people didn't have 40k HP in Cyrodiil. They had 23k. Don't mistaken power creep with skill increase, because that's just not true

So we are in agreement on stat inflation as an underlying cause. Good.

No point to nerf WW when inflated stats are also breaking every other new class.

hoangdz · April 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s

Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Nothing I said was incorrect or invalid here? This is what was initially requested if your ‘party’. I beg your finest pardon.

I’m not watching 17 min of this drek when it isn’t this wasn’t what was requested but just a humble 20 seconds in (00:00:20-00:00:30) you can already see a player (again this is a proof video with NO information for self or opponent) that is just lost. They just used one pounce and then broke down and completely forgot they had anything including a CC.

And? You cherry picked a 10s clip in an 18 min compilation showing real fights against multiple top duelers. What happened in the remaining 1080 seconds of the clip HUH? Are we gonna ignore those parts?

hoangdz · April 19

coop500 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=8Q5JJlAFGSl5P2XD

Can we put this 'is it WW or is it Sorc?' debate to bed now?

Would love for this thread to go back to general Werewolf feedback, as there's all kinds of bugs and weirdness going on with it RN that could use detailed feedback for both PvE and PvP and everything else, but instead we got endless pages of petty back and forth that should probably go in a thread of it's own at this point.

WW is still broken in PvP. My original concern was for PvP. This debate still goes on.

Wuuffyy · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s

Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Nothing I said was incorrect or invalid here? This is what was initially requested if your ‘party’. I beg your finest pardon.

I’m not watching 17 min of this drek when it isn’t this wasn’t what was requested but just a humble 20 seconds in (00:00:20-00:00:30) you can already see a player (again this is a proof video with NO information for self or opponent) that is just lost. They just used one pounce and then broke down and completely forgot they had anything including a CC.

And? You cherry picked a 10s clip in an 18 min compilation showing real fights against multiple top duelers. What happened in the remaining 1080 seconds of the clip HUH? Are we gonna ignore those parts?

That was literally 20 seconds in. I didn’t cherry-pick anything xD. May want to use AI to figure out what that means.

hoangdz wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=8Q5JJlAFGSl5P2XD

Can we put this 'is it WW or is it Sorc?' debate to bed now?

Would love for this thread to go back to general Werewolf feedback, as there's all kinds of bugs and weirdness going on with it RN that could use detailed feedback for both PvE and PvP and everything else, but instead we got endless pages of petty back and forth that should probably go in a thread of it's own at this point.

WW is still broken in PvP. My original concern was for PvP. This debate still goes on.

This thing, you quoted here (the video) is showing a legitimate 220k parse for sorc rn, haha.

Sorc class mastery OP maybe 0.o

hoangdz · April 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I've never said that? If that's what other people say it's not something I can control - sorry if it bothers you and your friends.

But this is what you said in another thread:

Did you mean "top theorycrafter" as in one of the best or "the best"? Because I understood it as you claiming yourself to be the best theorycrafter.

Decimus wrote: »

I will claim things like dueling tournament wins, win rate/KDR records etc that are verifiable though, because I take great pride in my accomplishments and wish the game had more competition in that sense and more things to compete over, like ranked leaderboards/arenas etc. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

Agreed

Decimus wrote: »

I hope you also understand the irony of you making this statement after all the elitism on this thread - in the end it's just what you/your friends think of each other, not something backed up by anything competitive.

React, Alchemist, and Pelican have all participated in dueling tournaments on PC NA in the past and individually won a few tourneys. I have also won a 40 million gold tournament in 2021 on my stamsorc vs a stacked pool of competitors when I still did tourneys.

Also, what elitism? I've never called anyone bad in the thread lol. I've simply stated 2 things that are objectively valid:

1) Most people are not good enough to play WW to its fullest potential
2) Are people qualified enough to provide an unbiased opinion on combat balance?

None of these are elitist by nature. I don't comment on PvE threads because I'm not a good PvEr. If some guy says Sorc should be nerfed in PvE because it's doing 200k+ DPS and has the evidence to prove it, I'm not going to disagree with him just because I can't personally do 200k DPS.

All you have is testimony though . This is the problem anyone that disagrees with you has. You are not able to provide anything meaningful- if I wanted to ‘prove my point’ I can go to PTS with my buddy, tell him to wear the squishiest gear possible on a 70k health build (or some shnap), and sit there while I have Relequen, etc. and pull a parse in a 1v1.

You are not qualified because we neither voted you in to represent us nor did you win in anything ZOS-related (ZOS tourney, etc.). Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses- especially those that provide testimony or omit information while passing a parse off as evidence.

???? I have literally posted several screenshots of duels, including Pelican's video showcasing real duels against top players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYtbITjCW-4&t=224s

Isn't this you commenting there?

" In multiple 'duels' (FYI we DO NOT balance around duels 'ere'), the opponent is quite literally lost."
"I mean you fought a werewolf who clearly had no idea they had a CC and did not use it on you throughut the entire duel."

Okay, please come to PTS and duel Pelican. He's there right now. Show everyone here what a nondisingenuous duel looks like.

Nothing I said was incorrect or invalid here? This is what was initially requested if your ‘party’. I beg your finest pardon.

I’m not watching 17 min of this drek when it isn’t this wasn’t what was requested but just a humble 20 seconds in (00:00:20-00:00:30) you can already see a player (again this is a proof video with NO information for self or opponent) that is just lost. They just used one pounce and then broke down and completely forgot they had anything including a CC.

And? You cherry picked a 10s clip in an 18 min compilation showing real fights against multiple top duelers. What happened in the remaining 1080 seconds of the clip HUH? Are we gonna ignore those parts?

That was literally 20 seconds in. I didn’t cherry-pick anything xD. May want to use AI to figure out what that means.

hoangdz wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=8Q5JJlAFGSl5P2XD

Can we put this 'is it WW or is it Sorc?' debate to bed now?

Would love for this thread to go back to general Werewolf feedback, as there's all kinds of bugs and weirdness going on with it RN that could use detailed feedback for both PvE and PvP and everything else, but instead we got endless pages of petty back and forth that should probably go in a thread of it's own at this point.

WW is still broken in PvP. My original concern was for PvP. This debate still goes on.

This thing, you quoted here (the video) is showing a legitimate 220k parse for sorc rn, haha.

Sorc class mastery OP 0.o

You have to be ragebaiting. That’s it you won. I’m done entertaining this lol