Nevermind

coop500 · April 18

I dunno about you all, but all the back and forth among PvPers really is starting to make me depressed about losing things like Class Masteries or other fun things for werewolf that finally brings it into viability for group content in PvE, and it feels like almost nobody cares about that anymore. All the discussion is about stupid friggen PvP, god I hate that mode, I'm so tired of losing build after build after build to it for literally years. Builds that weren't even over-preforming but allowed me to stick to a character theme while still being useful. It's a balancing act that I have worked on for literally years, and it always feel like an uphill battle with this stuff.

This werewolf refresh is one of the best things I've seen for me personally to come to ESO, and I am honestly so excited and happy for it. But I'm also falling into a lull of feeling like it's going to get gutted and destroyed, due to the fact it's a one-bar build and a lot of people hold some hidden hatred and elitism for it, whether because of what it is (stupid furry playstyle, stupid 1bar build, other similar reasons).

Even if it remains good in PvE, we're even seeing people wanting to remove Major Courage from it and stuff. And I'm just like... why? Why can't werewolf finally be good and accepted in endgame PvE ONCE IN IT'S ENTIRE LIFE OF EXISTING SINCE THE GAME RELEASED?!

Every single class, even Necromancer, has had it's time where it didn't suck in these fronts, including when Vampire was meta literally everywhere, god that was horrible too. Werewolf literally never has had this kind of moment. It just had a short period where it dominated in PvP battlegrounds and stuff, but I couldn't care less. That means nothing to me, and this endless back and forth is making me deeply resent PvP and it's community with every passing suggestion of removing Class Masteries, or whatever.

I'm just sad, really sad. This post will probably get torn apart by PvPers but I had to say something. I've been playing this game for nine years on and off, and have never felt more excited, yet more depressed over an upcoming update, or how the devs might handle it.

I know nobody cares about the mid tier players, the players who don't totally suck, but they don't just mindlessly run the meta and deal 120K DPS with a single button or whatever the current claim is now, I don't even know anymore. Nobody cares about the people who want to do vet dungeons and stuff and play ACTUAL CHARACTERS when they do it. No, it's just numbers, characters don't matter, build theme doesn't matter, but it matters to me. It will always matter to me, and I'm tired of being silenced over mindless and endless number crunching that can't even be balanced between two entirely different modes and playstyles. No, let's just rip out all build creativity so that all that remains is the acceptable meta that doesn't offend too many people, because apparently werewolf just pisses people off far too much in both PvP and PvE.

Dracane · April 18

It is depressing. The fear of losing something that you know will only make yourself competitive at best, hangs over us all.
But it will be Sorc players that pay for it in your stead, as it happens every time. So I wouldn't worry about it. Others will suffer more for you.

xylena · April 18

They can rework things in a way that buffs classes while removing degenerate interactions.

Dracane · April 18

xylena wrote: »

They can rework things in a way that buffs classes while removing degenerate interactions.

So this means buffing Conservation of Energy to 3-4% of ressource and limiting it to class ability. Because otherwise is far from fair or appropriate.

tsaescishoeshiner · April 18

I took the PTS changes to be an overall buff for werewolves, mainly as far as the new damage and tanking subsystemsand QoL changes that were introduced being an overall improvement. Whereas the numbers could be modified in the future.

coop500 · April 18

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I took the PTS changes to be an overall buff for werewolves, mainly as far as the new damage and tanking subsystemsand QoL changes that were introduced being an overall improvement. Whereas the numbers could be modified in the future.

Currently: Yes they are a MAJOR improvement.
However, it's the endless rampaging discussion of getting it nerfed is what I'm worried about, and discussion of how it doesn't deserve to ever be good because it's a 1 bar playstyle.

JimT722 · April 18

I wouldn't get depressed about something that hasn't happened yet. Any balance changes could end up being very minor. Zos has done a great job with the reworks. i'm really enjoying werewolf and challenge difficulty on the pts.

duagloth · April 19

Too bad they cant balance the two separately, but that would require effort

hoangdz · April 19

Us PvPers and PvErs were there to test their changes and give feedback. Why blame us for ZOS's incompetence?

Wuuffyy · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Us PvPers and PvErs were there to test their changes and give feedback. Why blame us for ZOS's incompetence?

Are they incompetent? They've intentionally buffed werewolf to be competitive with the class rework. Other classes and specs are pulling similar numbers except with more potential survivability from various skills, etc. and potential burst damage spikes.

QuinnTheWolf · April 19

The one and only solution is one zenimax refuses to implement as if it will give eso an illness even tho this would do the exact opposite and cure eso of what i perveive as the disease. (pve balance being gutted by pvp balance intentions)

Look no further then Arenanet Guild wars 2. -w-
Pvp: Separate skill balancing. (battlegrounds for eso)
Wvw: Separate skill balancing. (ava for eso)
Pve: Main skill balancing.

C'mon zenimax xD....
Just do this already -w- and no, vengeance isnt a solution imo, it restricts build diversity and will just chase those pvpholics to quit the game ;-;
Just make the damn split already!
I don't know other mmos, only eso and gw2, but im pretty extremely sure others have a system like that too!

Do the right thing and don't nerf our newly perfected werewuffs into oblivion over the whims of those who love destroy their sanity in pvp x3...

Even in pve it needs a slight nerf rn, but if its gona be nerfed for the sake of pvp, werewolves will be as useless as they have been before this update ;-;

Not saying all of this because i have a seething hatered for pvp game modes.

Callosum · April 19

Just remove class passives and masteries entirely during werewolf form, and balance the werewolf passives around that. If needed, give werewolf its own dedicated mastery passives instead.
Werewolves should absolutely be competitive and fun to play but allowing class passives and masteries to carry over into werewolf form is too restrictive. It limits what the developers can actually do with both the werewolf kit and class passives, because every change has to account for their interaction.
Separating the systems would open up far more design space and make balancing easier

xylena · April 19

Callosum wrote: »

Just remove class passives and masteries entirely during werewolf form, and balance the werewolf passives around that. If needed, give werewolf its own dedicated mastery passives instead.

I like this idea. I doubt WW players want to be obligated to a specific base class. Giving WW its own self contained mechanics would make WW balanced across classes, removing degenerate interactions with Sorc passives or DK sets or whatever else.

hoangdz · April 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Us PvPers and PvErs were there to test their changes and give feedback. Why blame us for ZOS's incompetence?

Are they incompetent? They've intentionally buffed werewolf to be competitive with the class rework. Other classes and specs are pulling similar numbers except with more potential survivability from various skills, etc. and potential burst damage spikes.

Yes, they are. PTS WW, with a missing 33% WD modifier caused by a bug in one of its passive, is still doing 8k+ DPS to other players. Even if you remove the class masteries, WW is still doing 6k+ DPS. Its healing is also extremely good. I've personally reached 6k HPS on my WW in a sustained fight against a pressure build, no sweat. These WW specs also have 40k+ HP and infinite sustain (literally) despite not using any class masteries.

So to claim that WW is only "competitive" is half-painting the picture. WW with access to class mastery passives and 33% WD will outmatch every class by a mile.

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

WW with access to class mastery passives

With Sorc Mastery, or with the bugged Pyrebrand/Wildfire interaction.

When next pts update hits, we need to test No Mastery WW vs Meta Dk/Sorc.

React · April 19

In it's current form, it has the potential to negatively impact the PVP experience for many people. That is why many of us are trying to see it (rightfully) brought in line before it goes live - nobody that doesn't play a WW wants someone with 40k HP and one bar dealing 6-10k DPS to them in pvp. Its not an unreasonable ask at all, and the spec simply does not need to be dealing that amount of damage with such little effort in PVP.

On the PVE/everything else side of the game, it hardly matters what WW is doing. They can make it as competitive as they like there, because it won't negatively affect anyone else's experience. They have the tools to distinguish the two with exclusions like "against monsters" or "against players". Its selfish to pretend like PVP players should just accept balance being decimated because casual/RP players want a certain power fantasy in an MMO.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Us PvPers and PvErs were there to test their changes and give feedback. Why blame us for ZOS's incompetence?

Are they incompetent? They've intentionally buffed werewolf to be competitive with the class rework. Other classes and specs are pulling similar numbers except with more potential survivability from various skills, etc. and potential burst damage spikes.

Why exactly should a one bar setup be competitive with high end two bar setups? Having more mechanical complexity required to play your build should net better results. You're seriously downplaying the effectiveness of the PTS WW here as well, because it isn't just competitive - it achieves the best DPS possible. On the PTS, it is dealing north of the best DPS possible by two bar setups as a baseline, even matching those setups without class mastery passives and while missing 33% WD, with a fraction of the mechanical complexity. That is not healthy.

You saw pelican's video, and you claimed that the people he was fighting were clueless - yet, some of the people in that video were genuinely some of the best duelers on the entire game. WW is dealing such a mind-boggling amount of damage that it makes these players look like they can't defend themselves - because you quite literally cannot defend yourself against 6k+ DPS reasonably and WW is dealing up to 10k dps with spikes of up to 13k dps.

To be honest, this is the worst case of disingenuous bias I have ever seen in my years on these forums. Dozens of WW players completely unwilling to acknowledge that there is a problem, shifting the goal posts and changing their argument each time they're being presented with evidence that the spec is overperforming. Its genuinely disappointing.

Dracane · April 19

QuinnTheWolf wrote: »

The one and only solution is one zenimax refuses to implement as if it will give eso an illness even tho this would do the exact opposite and cure eso of what i perveive as the disease. (pve balance being gutted by pvp balance intentions)

Look no further then Arenanet Guild wars 2. -w-
Pvp: Separate skill balancing. (battlegrounds for eso)
Wvw: Separate skill balancing. (ava for eso)
Pve: Main skill balancing.

C'mon zenimax xD....
Just do this already -w- and no, vengeance isnt a solution imo, it restricts build diversity and will just chase those pvpholics to quit the game ;-;
Just make the damn split already!
I don't know other mmos, only eso and gw2, but im pretty extremely sure others have a system like that too!

Do the right thing and don't nerf our newly perfected werewuffs into oblivion over the whims of those who love destroy their sanity in pvp x3...

Even in pve it needs a slight nerf rn, but if its gona be nerfed for the sake of pvp, werewolves will be as useless as they have been before this update ;-;

Not saying all of this because i have a seething hatered for pvp game modes.

Arenanet is also not the paragon of class balancing though. Far from it indeed.
I believe it is actually, paradoxically, a good thing that ZoS forces themselves to balance things between pve and pvp. Because imagine what drastic (and foolish) changes they might do for pvp if pve balance wouldn't need to be considered.

No no, I believe this Pandora's Box should remain closed.

It could be so much worse.

Dracane · April 19

xylena wrote: »

Callosum wrote: »

Just remove class passives and masteries entirely during werewolf form, and balance the werewolf passives around that. If needed, give werewolf its own dedicated mastery passives instead.

I like this idea. I doubt WW players want to be obligated to a specific base class. Giving WW its own self contained mechanics would make WW balanced across classes, removing degenerate interactions with Sorc passives or DK sets or whatever else.

Precisely. I wonder why Werewolves defend this so vehemently. So what if you are not Sorc or DK now? Suddenly your Werewolf is less competitive. (Rather I should say competent) No Werewolf of sound mind could possibly defend this. Better advocate for Werewolf passives to be proper. And as we know, they are getting 33% weapon damage soon, which handles this already.

Orbital78 · April 19

Sad that my heavy attack werewolf build probably isn't going to work anymore. If they have reworked them in a way that they are viable in veteran content though, I will be happy most likely. Currently they felt pretty bad beyond roleplay, meme normal dungeons and overland.

coop500 · April 19

For those asking removal of Class Masteries in favor of one passive for weapon damage being fixed:

Passives aren't just a chunk of weapon damage. There's defensive stats, there's debuffs, there's DOTs, and just unique interactions with your class that makes a little bit of flavor and difference.

Currently on the PTS I'm using Serpent's Disdain and the Glacial Maw Warden passive, with a frost enchant on my weapon, to apply 18 seconds of Major Brittle on enemies through light attacks. This isn't just raw damage to me, it's a useful team benefit that I can provide in werewolf form. Yes, normal wardens can do the same or even better, but that's not the point. It's a unique, fun and useful debuff that helps all my team, not just me.

Some free weapon damage ain't gonna replace that utility.

Werewolf isn't just about pumping out damage. We still want to be useful to our werewolf and non-werewolf friends. Plus there's tanking werewolves too, which different class masteries could benefit as well in different ways.

This is why I'm upset. The sheer lack of understanding and, worse, the ignorance from people in this very thread who mock and treat us like we're stupid because we want our base class to matter even just a little bit, and think that some free damage will magically make it okay.

When the PvP nerf demands stop being 'use the 'against players' or 'against monsters' modifier and becomes about taking away things across the board, then yes, I have all the reason to condemn PvPers for this demand for a playstyle they don't care about, and even act SUPERIOR about than those who actually play it.

hoangdz · April 19

React wrote: »

Why exactly should a one bar setup be competitive with high end two bar setups? Having more mechanical complexity required to play your build should net better results. You're seriously downplaying the effectiveness of the PTS WW here as well, because it isn't just competitive - it achieves the best DPS possible. On the PTS, it is dealing north of the best DPS possible by two bar setups as a baseline, even matching those setups without class mastery passives and while missing 33% WD, with a fraction of the mechanical complexity. That is not healthy.

Well said. A lot of people don't seem to understand the advantage that a 1-bar build provides. Less buffs to manage, less complexity, more time spent on doing damage. When a 1-barred build has similar or greater effectiveness than a 2-bar build, it makes little sense not to run that 1-bar build. Pre-nerfed Oakensoul was a prime example of this.

React wrote: »

To be honest, this is the worst case of disingenuous bias I have ever seen in my years on these forums. Dozens of WW players completely unwilling to acknowledge that there is a problem, shifting the goal posts and changing their argument each time they're being presented with evidence that the spec is overperforming. Its genuinely disappointing.

This is why I've refrained from posting videos or photo evidence as much. People just keep moving the goal post when you've clearly countered their point. People claimed DK is competitive with subclassing. I posted evidence of DK clearly majoritying subclassed builds => goal post shifted to DK being relevant in dueling only. When I posted clips of DK clearly nuking people in Cyro more effectively than subclassed builds => goal post shifted again. Like, my own class got a massive buff through class masteries and I'm not hesitant to call for a nerf on it. I could have defended Conservation of Energy but I chose balance instead. That's being objective.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW with access to class mastery passives

With Sorc Mastery, or with the bugged Pyrebrand/Wildfire interaction.

When next pts update hits, we need to test No Mastery WW vs Meta Dk/Sorc.

Why would you test No Mastery WW vs Meta DK/Sorc?

Wuuffyy · April 19

React wrote: »

In it's current form, it has the potential to negatively impact the PVP experience for many people. That is why many of us are trying to see it (rightfully) brought in line before it goes live - nobody that doesn't play a WW wants someone with 40k HP and one bar dealing 6-10k DPS to them in pvp. Its not an unreasonable ask at all, and the spec simply does not need to be dealing that amount of damage with such little effort in PVP.

On the PVE/everything else side of the game, it hardly matters what WW is doing. They can make it as competitive as they like there, because it won't negatively affect anyone else's experience. They have the tools to distinguish the two with exclusions like "against monsters" or "against players". Its selfish to pretend like PVP players should just accept balance being decimated because casual/RP players want a certain power fantasy in an MMO.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Us PvPers and PvErs were there to test their changes and give feedback. Why blame us for ZOS's incompetence?

Are they incompetent? They've intentionally buffed werewolf to be competitive with the class rework. Other classes and specs are pulling similar numbers except with more potential survivability from various skills, etc. and potential burst damage spikes.

Why exactly should a one bar setup be competitive with high end two bar setups? Having more mechanical complexity required to play your build should net better results. You're seriously downplaying the effectiveness of the PTS WW here as well, because it isn't just competitive - it achieves the best DPS possible. On the PTS, it is dealing north of the best DPS possible by two bar setups as a baseline, even matching those setups without class mastery passives and while missing 33% WD, with a fraction of the mechanical complexity. That is not healthy.

You saw pelican's video, and you claimed that the people he was fighting were clueless - yet, some of the people in that video were genuinely some of the best duelers on the entire game. WW is dealing such a mind-boggling amount of damage that it makes these players look like they can't defend themselves - because you quite literally cannot defend yourself against 6k+ DPS reasonably and WW is dealing up to 10k dps with spikes of up to 13k dps.

To be honest, this is the worst case of disingenuous bias I have ever seen in my years on these forums. Dozens of WW players completely unwilling to acknowledge that there is a problem, shifting the goal posts and changing their argument each time they're being presented with evidence that the spec is overperforming. Its genuinely disappointing.

Date: 4/16/26

Date: 4/17/26

Request was: provide controlled test showing personal+opponents gear and skills with gameplay footage

What was provided: video with ability bars covered up with random duels some of which were against players that stood still with improper builds (must assume) and did not fight back.

Still no numbers. Still no tell of what passives used to do what. No one cares about balancing in 1 v 1s but even if we did, this video doesn’t even help make the claim it’s unbalanced there. You cannot tell me that you believe what was provided here furthers any point.

But yes, I believe that wolf should not have access to the unhinged damage passive from sorc or the sustain passive from a rework and efficiency standpoint alone. I do not believe it should be blocked from all class mastery or class sets because you provide no actual evidence and say it should be so.

Ataskir · April 19

What if they just like, disabled that specific sorc mastery while the character is transformed? WW and Scion wouldn’t benefit from it, and it’ll be a step towards balancing the experience. All without denying every other class mastery which doesn’t enable this crazy stuff.

See, I just want my tundra’s maw mastery to work in WW form, cause then that makes a whole lot of people happy when I tank for them, which in turn makes me happy. Yeah I know it’s temporary until Warden gets its rework, but until then it’s very fun applying 18 seconds of major brittle while in WW form.

No need to over complicate all of this, at the end of the day we’re all here to have fun, yeah?

Wuuffyy · April 19

Ataskir wrote: »

What if they just like, disabled that specific sorc mastery while the character is transformed? WW and Scion wouldn’t benefit from it, and it’ll be a step towards balancing the experience. All without denying every other class mastery which doesn’t enable this crazy stuff.

See, I just want my tundra’s maw mastery to work in WW form, cause then that makes a whole lot of people happy when I tank for them, which in turn makes me happy. Yeah I know it’s temporary until Warden gets its rework, but until then it’s very fun applying 18 seconds of major brittle while in WW form.

No need to over complicate all of this, at the end of the day we’re all here to have fun, yeah?

This fine gentleman wants far more than that. And he’s willing to provide everything short of controlled test (I.e. real evidence) to back it up.

Also, @Ataskir - I choose you! Use random, non -descript CMX prompt!

coop500 · April 19

Ataskir wrote: »

What if they just like, disabled that specific sorc mastery while the character is transformed? WW and Scion wouldn’t benefit from it, and it’ll be a step towards balancing the experience. All without denying every other class mastery which doesn’t enable this crazy stuff.

See, I just want my tundra’s maw mastery to work in WW form, cause then that makes a whole lot of people happy when I tank for them, which in turn makes me happy. Yeah I know it’s temporary until Warden gets its rework, but until then it’s very fun applying 18 seconds of major brittle while in WW form.

No need to over complicate all of this, at the end of the day we’re all here to have fun, yeah?

This would be nice, this would be fine. I just hate the idea of removing all class mastery and passives and everything to the deepest core of my being. Address the problem ones, don't punish innocent people.

xylena · April 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Why would you test No Mastery WW vs Meta DK/Sorc?

If No Mastery WW convincingly beats the meta, then yeah WW itself might be too strong. If it can't, then the Mastery interaction is the problem, not WW itself.

Wuuffyy · April 20

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Why would you test No Mastery WW vs Meta DK/Sorc?

If No Mastery WW convincingly beats the meta, then yeah WW itself might be too strong. If it can't, then the Mastery interaction is the problem, not WW itself.

The meta for what friend- dueling everyone in Riften xD. If that’s what you’re worried about, throw on Jerall’s mountain for your DK and call it a day. Kite a lil’ for the wolfies and you’ll be set.

Werewolf is parsing behind any subclass and multiple pure class (mastery) specs so I’d say the numbers are telling a different story here. The only debate for PvP is ease of access (but most of your current werewolf damage from PvP morphs is coming for consistently light attacking which a majority of the player base struggles with).

This barring exploitable class masteries (looking at the sorc one which MAY be overtuned on even sorc) which I just so happen to have an amicable suggestion for somewhere lower in these forums.

xylena · April 20

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The meta for what

I've been pretty patient trying to explain how dueling extrapolates to open world, unlike the WW nerf herders. Keep this up and I'm joining the nerf WW crusade out of principle.

dark_hunterxmg · April 20

Im not depressed about werewolf, but I'm not happy with it. I prefer to play my werewolf on live at this point. I don't find the new way of playing to be particularly fun. Feels too much like a boxing match.

The majority of healing is coming from the spammable attack. If you aren't attacking with that skill constantly, you're probably dying. At the same time, the spammable doesn't do enough single hit damage to not be spammed constantly. The burst heal is not good for this play style and cannot make up for not spamming rip and tear. It needs to be scaled closer to live and needs a HoT and cross heal added.

Berserker will not be able to play open world and stay in form. Even in IC, if you're kiting around trying to evade while in combat, it's just a continuous ulti drain. You'll have to stop and eat something while doing all of that whether chasing or evading. Pack leader has a better chance, or at least will last longer.

We've seen the high dps werewolf duel video. This video is more about nerfing werewolf preemptively than it is about actually pinpointing the problem. I suspect that the call for nerfs by non-werewolf meta players is more about not being forced to play werewolf main for a whole patch. They can prove me wrong though.

I don't want Werewolf to be meta. I want it to be good and competitive. I want to be able to play like we do on live, but better. It doesn't feel like that to me right now. If it went live today like it is now, I wouldn't play it.

Wuuffyy · April 20

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The meta for what

I've been pretty patient trying to explain how dueling extrapolates to open world, unlike the WW nerf herders. Keep this up and I'm joining the nerf WW crusade out of principle.

I need not you nor whatever crusade you rolled in on. Take them both mwhahaha 😈.

I am not a faction leader, just another player providing feedback and debate. If my angering you causes you to ‘change sides’ then so be it- that is more on you than it will ever be on me.