U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

xylena · April 18

@hoangdz thanks, see that wasn't so hard was it. How much dps did you do against the Warden without Class Mastery? Can't be that low, you said you almost killed him.

What do you think the problem with WW is specifically? Innate healing? I would imagine they're designed to face tank multiples in open world to an extent.

If WW with no Mastery is evenly matched against pre-rework Warden with its Mastery, what do you conclude from this? I'm still concluding the Sorc Mastery interaction is a problem.

I fought one pure Warden on my StamSorc against a player who beats me 9/10 normally. I won easily. I think we should see no Mastery WW against StamSorc and DK.

huskandhunger · April 18

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

As a Templar main werewolf player, the Templar side is something I chose when I first started the game because I enjoyed the thematic and fantasy of it. I don't want to play on Dragonknight no matter how powerful they are currently, or a Sorcerer streaking around like a lightning bolt, or a ninja Nightblade.

coop500 · April 18

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

Disable class passives, pure class passives and weapon passives like bow still work iirc for werewolf.
Instead, add werewolf specific passives we can choose from in the same way as pure class passives.

This way you can enjoy werewolf with any class.

Clearly there's too much conflict over class passives on werewolf, there shouldn't be one meta class for werewolves.. again.

Please for the love of everything DO NOT DO THIS!
This is what PvEers fear, awful heavyhanded changes from the PvP crowd that ruin any and all fun and build diversity. And NO, weapon passives DO NOT WORK, that is actually a major issue that werewolf still struggles with.

I don't think they originally intended class passives to interact with werewolf when they designed them, seems like sorc, warden and templar are getting the better options over the other classes and that will just force werewolf players to gravitate toward those classes which sucks for werewolves who's already playing other classes, regardless if you're a PvEr or PvPer...

By adding werewolf specific passives we can choose from, in the same way as pure class passives. Assuming they would be interesting enough, you could express yourself by mixing sets with those passives and play werewolf on any class, however you want.

I’d even add a few class themed werewolf passive per class. Like, Warden werewolves could unlock an "Ice Claws" passive that adds frost damage to light attacks or something and so on, and then the other class theme werewolf passives would share similar power level. I think this whole thing needs more work put into it.

Did major expedition from bow stopped working when in werewolf form?

Didn't see your final question.
I haven't tested bow lately, but that's a nothingburger in relation to everything else. Stuff like gaining Pen from wielding an Axe with twohanded doesn't carry over, actually combat stats.

CrimsonXReaper · April 18

@coop500 You’re not fighting with your weapons in werewolf form, so why should you benefit from their passives?
The 30% Weapon/Spell Damage passive isn’t working right now and once it does, that alone should make up for losing the weapon passives.

Serophous · April 18

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

@coop500 You’re not fighting with your weapons in werewolf form, so why should you benefit from their passives?
The 30% Weapon/Spell Damage passive isn’t working right now and once it does, that alone should make up for losing the weapon passives.

Sorcerer's light attacks don't use their weapons to hurl lightning balls at targets while in Overload mode, yet still benefit from their weapon passives

CrimsonXReaper · April 18

Serophous wrote: »

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

@coop500 You’re not fighting with your weapons in werewolf form, so why should you benefit from their passives?
The 30% Weapon/Spell Damage passive isn’t working right now and once it does, that alone should make up for losing the weapon passives.

Sorcerer's light attacks don't use their weapons to hurl lightning balls at targets while in Overload mode, yet still benefit from their weapon passives

You're right, maybe we should have people lose their armor passives when they're not using the right weight style and if they choose to hide them while we're at it lol

coop500 · April 18

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

@coop500 You’re not fighting with your weapons in werewolf form, so why should you benefit from their passives?
The 30% Weapon/Spell Damage passive isn’t working right now and once it does, that alone should make up for losing the weapon passives.

Because literally every other class and playstyle and ult and everything else still benefits. Werewolf gets no Pen in their passives, so you must get it elsewhere, and will even lose pen by transforming if you're wielding maces/maul. That's absurd to me to lose stats, including one as important as Penetration, because I transformed

Alchimiste1 · April 18

huskandhunger wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

As a Templar main werewolf player, the Templar side is something I chose when I first started the game because I enjoyed the thematic and fantasy of it. I don't want to play on Dragonknight no matter how powerful they are currently, or a Sorcerer streaking around like a lightning bolt, or a ninja Nightblade.

My point stands

Celas_Dranacea · April 19

huskandhunger wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

As a Templar main werewolf player, the Templar side is something I chose when I first started the game because I enjoyed the thematic and fantasy of it. I don't want to play on Dragonknight no matter how powerful they are currently, or a Sorcerer streaking around like a lightning bolt, or a ninja Nightblade.

Yep I agree with you - I am a NB werewolf main since 2014. If Sorc wolf ends up the most powerful oh well I will still be playing my same nb werewolf toon. But hopefully they just balance whatever is going on with sorc specifically. It would be nice for each option for pure classed werewolf to be viable and cool and have their own flavor.

I think I can speak for the many werewolf mains when I say that we are not meta chasers, and don’t have the need for WW to be more OP than everything else. To think that would be laughable considering that well, we have played werewolf through thick and thin even with hardened ward sorcs, sorcdens, current day DKs, all the people spec bowing us while purging and shielding etc and all the other metas we’ve had to face.

I’m doubtful that ww is overperforming outside of a few fringe interactions with sets and passives in a specific build (which should be looked at) especially considering all the drawbacks we face in normal game situations that have been outline previously.

Overall, I’m excited about the coming of the greatest variety of werewolf build options we have ever got to enjoy for both PvE and PvP, with a cool new model and animations and stuff. Gonna be great!

I trust the work ZOS has done to this point, and the additional work they will do to get this right. Good work ZOS!

Also p.s. once again let us be faster pls!

tomofhyrule · April 19

Ok, I finally got the time to play around and check some things out in here. Apologies for the delay; it's been a week so I didn't get much of a chance to do anything.

First: I really like it overall. It's a lot of fun. I'm again looking at this mostly from a casual, play-around fun-based standpoint. Most of the things I have to give input on are more general instead of for any specific skills. I feel like the skills are fine, but it did take a bit of patience to learn how they all interacted with each other due to the extensive tooltips.

First:
There's still a lot of information missing. The tooltips are already long enough, and even some of them don't give all of the information they need (neither of the tooltips for the Transformation morphs say exactly how much damage and movement is increased; you need to unmorph it to see that information)

The big problem though is that the Prowl and Slaughter mechanics are not mentioned anywhere outside of the Patch Notes. If it weren't for the fact that I read them, I'd have no idea that they existed. And the Help entry for Werewolves does not mention anything about it either - in fact the Werewolf help entry only tells how to become a werewolf, and the only entry under the Combat tab that mentions werewolves is that they can't use Skill Scrolls.

The information about Prowl and Slaughter needs to be added. Honestly, there should be a whole tab for Werewolves under the Combat to really explain all of these book-length tooltips.

So, the other thoughts I have playing with it:
The Werewolf timer is much more confusing than it was before. Having it proc off of Ultimate instead of time is fine, but the problem is that the default state of the game is to not show ult numbers. That means players will need to know to go into the options and turn them on in order to have a visible timer for their werewolf form.

Also, we had that timer under the mag bar for 12 years now, so it meaning something completely different is screwing with our muscle memory. It would be great if that bar were still useable as a werewolf timer as before, but now just showed our ultimate from 500-0 ult so we could still use it as a gauge for our werewolf form as we did in the past.
As for the Fury mechanic, I'd use the other side of the screen. In the vanilla UI, there is a bar that is designed to appear under the Stamina bar for your mount stamina. Werewolves can't mount, so allowing that bar to represent Fury gains while in werewolf form would make sense. Plus, that bar is closer to the Ultimate icon, so it's even more obvious that they're related.
This is how I would set it up:

Also, The glowing Ultimate is confusing. We have been conditioned that glowy Ultimate = ready to fire! And now we see this:

"Oh good! My Ult is ready!"
...and I turn back.
Oh, I had to wait until the glowy Ultimate icon turned to a different image to know my Rampage was ready.

Pity that the image is not the most obvious thing there, the glow is.

On Live, the Ultimate visually darkens. We can still hit it to transform back, but there's nothing calling us to hit it in that case.

I'd like to see the Ultimate icon keep the darkened version as it does on Live. Once Rampage is ready, the icon should change and the glowy border should start.

Appearance:
While the weekly update did say that no changes to the model were being implemented, I would still like to offer a bit of feedback.

First: it is great. It looks much better than we thought just seeing the A-pose from the preview thread. The only thing I don't like is the fact that the dewclaws on the rear legs stick out like sore thumbs.

I'd have preferred Skyrim's version of omitting the dewclaws, or at least Bloodmoon's version of keeping is tucked tightly to the paw.

The summary also mentioned the Werewolf Form, White skill style:

I will admit that I am not a fan of this version. I did prefer the black-nosed wolf-with-white-fur we have on Live as opposed to the albino look from the PTS.

However, this is definitely a "¿Por qué no los dos?" situation. The Skill Style here is our only source of character customization in werewolf form, so we should get a lot of them releasing for those of us fashion-a-holics. The white-fur-black-nose would be a great target for the next set of released werewolf styles, as would styles matching some of the common wolf colors already in game like the grey timberwolves or the russet brown direwolves we can spawn.

Please churn these out regularly though. You know that we in the ESO fandom love our customization, so we'll just eat up more werewolf colors.

The one thing I would do though is to rename the current "Werewolf Form, White" skill style to "Werewolf Form, Albino." That way when the white-fur-black-nose wolf releases, it can get the name "Werewolf Form, White" and prevent a lot of awkwardness trying to find a name for it.

But yes, definitely release more colors soon, and particularly the white, grey, and russet versions mentioned above.
(and definitely consider going bigger for things like a brown werebear as well...)

Regarding the glowy markings, I don't hate them as much as I thought I would at first, but I wouldn't mind losing them either. I do like the idea that's been presented of it appearing when Rampage is active.

As for the skills, I really don't have much to say. One thing I would have liked to see added though would be a way for a werewolf healer to be a thing - like a way that one wolf could heal others. Maybe if Hircine's Fortitude or Deafening Roar were made to apply a Vigor-esque heal to others?

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

@hoangdz thanks, see that wasn't so hard was it. How much dps did you do against the Warden without Class Mastery? Can't be that low, you said you almost killed him.

What do you think the problem with WW is specifically? Innate healing? I would imagine they're designed to face tank multiples in open world to an extent.

If WW with no Mastery is evenly matched against pre-rework Warden with its Mastery, what do you conclude from this? I'm still concluding the Sorc Mastery interaction is a problem.

I fought one pure Warden on my StamSorc against a player who beats me 9/10 normally. I won easily. I think we should see no Mastery WW against StamSorc and DK.

I did 4k DPS vs the Warden. Btw, you do know WW is still missing 33% WD modifier, right?

This is Pelican's WW fighting another WW, both without class masteries:

6k DPS in almost 1 minute, with HPS only dropping by 1.5k (as expected from my own results). Pelican here on a better build with more WW experience pulling 6k+ DPS. Considering that all the stamsorcs I've fought only did 6.1k max DPS in a real duel (Serpent Disdain Sorc with class masteries), it's pretty safe to say that WW still beats that.

Wuuffyy · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

@hoangdz thanks, see that wasn't so hard was it. How much dps did you do against the Warden without Class Mastery? Can't be that low, you said you almost killed him.

What do you think the problem with WW is specifically? Innate healing? I would imagine they're designed to face tank multiples in open world to an extent.

If WW with no Mastery is evenly matched against pre-rework Warden with its Mastery, what do you conclude from this? I'm still concluding the Sorc Mastery interaction is a problem.

I fought one pure Warden on my StamSorc against a player who beats me 9/10 normally. I won easily. I think we should see no Mastery WW against StamSorc and DK.

I did 4k DPS vs the Warden. Btw, you do know WW is still missing 33% WD modifier, right?

This is Pelican's WW fighting another WW, both without class masteries:

6k DPS in almost 1 minute, with HPS only dropping by 1.5k (as expected from my own results). Pelican here on a better build with more WW experience pulling 6k+ DPS. Considering that all the stamsorcs I've fought only did 6.1k max DPS in a real duel (Serpent Disdain Sorc with class masteries), it's pretty safe to say that WW still beats that.

Hey, both sorc and DK are doing these values. Additionally, werewolf lacks burst which the classes mentioned have in spades.

Wuuffyy · April 19

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

Thanks for providing something. Despite this lacking almost ALL of the information requested, I have still provided a like, sub, and comment for any effort on that end.

As mentioned, the reasonable request was this:

...what you're wearing/doing outside of your visible procs (*) or what your opponent is wearing or doing at all- this is highly disingenuous and not sufficient when you're talking about something needing to be nerfed by numbers alone.

We are asking for this as we neither want to balance around a 1v1 and request a controlled test (as you are making x, y, z claim) where your opponent is moving to at-least avoid some damage while 'building correctly' (meta DK/subclass build with proper defenses and skills).

As mentioned prior, werewolf lacks burst (which DK and sorc have in which they are parsing similar numbers with sustain) or a purge/proper hot/snare removal (which your standard DK/sorc, for example, have access to which provide them more staying power- especially in a 1v1 situation) which may mean they are entitled to ‘more potential damage’ to compensate for these things.

To sum up what was mentioned via a quote from another player here:

It's not about "demanding" anything. It's basic testing you would do to find out where the problem lies. How can we point at the WW as the problem without testing if anything else might be causing that problem?

Panderbander · April 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...

So, the other thoughts I have playing with it:
The Werewolf timer is much more confusing than it was before. Having it proc off of Ultimate instead of time is fine, but the problem is that the default state of the game is to not show ult numbers. That means players will need to know to go into the options and turn them on in order to have a visible timer for their werewolf form.

Also, we had that timer under the mag bar for 12 years now, so it meaning something completely different is screwing with our muscle memory. It would be great if that bar were still useable as a werewolf timer as before, but now just showed our ultimate from 500-0 ult so we could still use it as a gauge for our werewolf form as we did in the past.
As for the Fury mechanic, I'd use the other side of the screen. In the vanilla UI, there is a bar that is designed to appear under the Stamina bar for your mount stamina. Werewolves can't mount, so allowing that bar to represent Fury gains while in werewolf form would make sense. Plus, that bar is closer to the Ultimate icon, so it's even more obvious that they're related.
This is how I would set it up:

Also, The glowing Ultimate is confusing. We have been conditioned that glowy Ultimate = ready to fire! And now we see this:

"Oh good! My Ult is ready!"
...and I turn back.
Oh, I had to wait until the glowy Ultimate icon turned to a different image to know my Rampage was ready.

Pity that the image is not the most obvious thing there, the glow is.

On Live, the Ultimate visually darkens. We can still hit it to transform back, but there's nothing calling us to hit it in that case.

I'd like to see the Ultimate icon keep the darkened version as it does on Live. Once Rampage is ready, the icon should change and the glowy border should start.

...

This is an excellent suggestion, one that I've been mulling over how to fix since I, too, have been accidentally dropping form because simple monkey brain saw shiny flashing thing and pressed button lmao.

What about instead of adding a second bar under the stamina bar, simply reconfigure the ultimate button to show the Fury number instead of the Ultimate number? I personally rather like having the numerical value available for reference, and the existing timer bar doesn't give that option.

Main thing, though, please, please, PLEASE, make that button stop glowing and flashing until it's Rampaging time

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

I did 4k DPS vs the Warden

Pelican here on a better build with more WW experience pulling 6k+ DPS

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years. Seriously doubt the missing WD will turn 4-6k dps into 10k. This clearly tells me the Sorc/WW interaction is the problem.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years. Seriously doubt the missing WD will turn 4-6k dps into 10k. This clearly tells me the Sorc/WW interaction is the problem.

The biasness here is incredible. You are talking about a spec that is pulling 6k DPS AND 6k HPS with 40k HP, zero class mastery passives, AND missing 33% WD modifier (which on a 6k WD build is equivalent to an extra 1k-1.5k WD).

Apart from the Pyre/Rele DK that can consistently do 6k DPS, please point out to me what build in the history of the game up until U49-U50 can parse 6k DPS on a player in a real fight, while having 40k HP and missing a bunch of passives? What's more absurd is you downplaying the extra 33% WD as if it's not meaningful. Yes, it won't turn a 6k DPS into 10k, but it'll turn it into 7k-8k DPS. Can you name me one class without class masteries that can tank that kind of damage without purposely speccing everything into defense?

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

can tank that kind of damage

Why are you trying to tank the damage and not avoid it with Streak and ranged attacks? I think this is the big disconnect between dueling and open world. There's also the issue that long extended 1v1 almost never happens in normal open world gameplay.

Yes dueling is relevant to open world, but 1v1 engagements in open world are short, and players disengage when the fight stalemates or when they are overmatched. If a WW player threatens me that much in open world I can easily disengage with Streak. The WW player can be zerged down from range, or avoided until their timer runs out for an easy kill.

If next pts update hits and random jank WW is trivially doing 8k then fine I'll say it's op. But a good player doing 4-6k on a non optimized build is not cause for concern to me. You say 40k hp like it's a big deal, so what, my StamSorc did 8k while wearing 3 Swift jewelry, in 8-10 second kills that look near exactly like actual open world engagements. Not a controlled parse.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years.

Also, you are treading into topics you have zero knowledge about. I have spent a considerable amount of time dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and I have NEVER seen your name there. You clearly do not know what a normal DPS value looks like in a duel, nor do you know what's bad or unhealthy DPS. So let me give you some baseline DPS values going forward so we can stop spewing false information:

Bad DPS:
<2k for burst builds
<3k for pressure builds

With this DPS, the only people you're going to kill are complete newbies. If you consistently pull <2k DPS, then there are only 2 scenarios:

1) Your opponent's pressure is so great that you're permanently stuck on back bar.
2) You genuinely have bad mechanics

I have done <2.5k DPS before on my burst build, but that was against a full cancer build with 7k+ DPS. I was basically stuck on back bar 80% of the fight trying to survive. Most people who do <2k-3k DPS generally fall into the 2nd category.

Average DPS:
2k - 2.5k for burst builds
3.5k - 4k for pressure builds

This is where the majority of the playerbase sits at. You have just enough damage to kill other average players, but not enough to kill better ones. The only exception is a pure burst build, which often deals around 3k - 3.5k DPS but can still have the potential to 100-0 someone. The requirement is that you must have exceptional mechanics to kill better players.

Good DPS:
2.5k - 3.5k for burst builds
4k- 4.5k for pressure builds

If your DPS falls in this range, you're above average. Generally, you will win 6-7/10 of your fights with this kind of DPS (8-9/10 if you have exceptional mechanics). The people you're going to lose to are:

1) Those with significantly more DPS
2) Those better than you
3) Those outplaying you

This category is where average players with pressure duel builds and top tier ones with burst builds live. The DPS advantage of pressure duel builds often allow average players to achieve greater DPS than their mechanics alllow, while top-tier players make up for the lack of DPS with their mechanics.

This is where I normally sit at. My burst build can consistently deal 3.5k-4.5k DPS to most people if I weave perfectly (even exceeding some people on pressure builds), but I don't have enough pressure to push past 4.5k unless my opponent is extremely squishy.

Excellent DPS:
4k - 4.5k for burst builds
5k - 5.5k for pressure builds

If you're in this category, then you will win 9/10 of your duels. This is where the top 1% of duelers are at. Go to Stormhaven and you'll maybe find 1-2 people who can achieve this level of DPS.

To achieve this stage, you must have excellent mechanics and a min-maxed build partly specced for dueling. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% a dueling build, but the stats on it should be very high and maximized, and parts of the skills/gears should lean towards 1v1s. Something like Zaan/Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/Monomyth can easily achieve >4.5k DPS with top-tier mechanics. Some classes can make it easier to reach this DPS (DK for example), but you'll still need very good weaving/rotations to consistently pull off 5k- 5.5k DPS.

I sometimes reach 5k DPS on my burst build, but only if my opponent is extremely squishy.

Top-tier DPS:
>5.5k to <6.5k

If you have this DPS, then congratulations, you're in a very small group of duelers who barely lose. The only losses you take are from getting outplayed by someone on or better than your skill level AND with similar DPS. Most Stormhaven duels feel pretty boring for you.

To achieve this level, you must have nigh-perfect weaving and a min-maxed build mostly specced for dueling. Your skills and gears should be used strictly for 1v1 fights. This is where you will see builds incorporate several proc sets and duel skills (like Trap Beast, Unstable Core, etc.)

Uncounterable DPS:
>6.5k

At this stage, you don't lose. Most fights last less than 30 seconds, with some taking as little as 5 seconds. Fights at this stage become a healing check for your opponent. People simply do not have the healing or defense to survive your damage at all. The only losses you incur are from self-mistakes, nothing more. People could be doing their absolute best and you would still obliterate them.

To achieve this stage, you need to have nigh-perfect mechanics and a build purely specced for dueling. However, some builds are just so cancer than you only need to have decent mechanics and still pull 6.5k+ DPS. Pyrebrand/Rele DK is a prime example.

The highest DPS build I've fought against before U49-U50 was Pyrebrand/Rele DK, reaching 7k DPS. That build had 29k HP and 4 damage CPs. U50 WW is almost reaching that DPS with 40k HP, no class mastery passives and the 33% WD modifier. To claim that WW is somehow similar to builds in previous patches is an absurd statement.

Major_Mangle · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years. Seriously doubt the missing WD will turn 4-6k dps into 10k. This clearly tells me the Sorc/WW interaction is the problem.

The biasness here is incredible. You are talking about a spec that is pulling 6k DPS AND 6k HPS with 40k HP, zero class mastery passives, AND missing 33% WD modifier (which on a 6k WD build is equivalent to an extra 1k-1.5k WD).

Apart from the Pyre/Rele DK that can consistently do 6k DPS, please point out to me what build in the history of the game up until U49-U50 can parse 6k DPS on a player in a real fight, while having 40k HP and missing a bunch of passives? What's more absurd is you downplaying the extra 33% WD as if it's not meaningful. Yes, it won't turn a 6k DPS into 10k, but it'll turn it into 7k-8k DPS. Can you name me one class without class masteries that can tank that kind of damage without purposely speccing everything into defense?

The ironic part is that the last time it was doable to pull such numbers with even less effort it was also on a ww setup (Murkmire enchant WW)

hoangdz · April 19

Dracane wrote: »

When only 2 builds are truly out of line, while all others get to the power level they should be at, then it isn't the thing (the passives in this case) that need nerfing, but those 2 broken builds that need the adjustments. This includes sets and their interactions at the very least.

Literally. I am using Conservation of Energy and Font of Power class masteries on my burst stamsorc and I barely do 4k DPS against a much weaker opponent. Most of my duels average 3k-3.5k DPS. People have no issue surviving my damage if they’re competent enough. What Conservation of Energy does is passively granting me incredible HPS to survive builds exceeding 7k DPS. It’s OP healing, but without it I get obliterated by these OP pressure builds. I still die to burst damage if people time it right, so there’s always counterplay there.

WW without class masteries can already heal for 6k+ HPS, so it’s obviously problematic when paired with Conservation of Energy. Does that mean the passive needs to be nerfed? No. If they nerf the passive, WW will still have 6k+ HPS lol.

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Also, you are treading into topics you have zero knowledge about

You keep name dropping Pelican for credibility, so why don't you ask him what it was like fighting me a decade ago when we spent hundreds of hours practicing against each other.

I'm attempting to extrapolate dueling performance to open world. You're still only talking about duels. How do you think WW fares against ranged focus fire in open world?

Decimus · April 19

Alright, so werewolf without sorc class masteries does roughly the same DPS/HPS as the previously reworked DK.

Excellent, we've reached the "new standard", hopefully we can add warden to this category in U51!

Meanwhile, maybe we can be a bit more specific about the actual issue so there's not gazillion posts providing very misleading "feedback" about "werewolf"?

Just a thought.

My last two dueling tournaments on PC/EU were #1 & #3, I guess this qualifies my post and makes it acceptable!

Dracane · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

When only 2 builds are truly out of line, while all others get to the power level they should be at, then it isn't the thing (the passives in this case) that need nerfing, but those 2 broken builds that need the adjustments. This includes sets and their interactions at the very least.

Literally. I am using Conservation of Energy and Font of Power class masteries on my burst stamsorc and I barely do 4k DPS against a much weaker opponent. Most of my duels average 3k-3.5k DPS. People have no issue surviving my damage if they’re competent enough. What Conservation of Energy does is passively granting me incredible HPS to survive builds exceeding 7k DPS. It’s OP healing, but without it I get obliterated by these OP pressure builds. I still die to burst damage if people time it right, so there’s always counterplay there.

WW without class masteries can already heal for 6k+ HPS, so it’s obviously problematic when paired with Conservation of Energy. Does that mean the passive needs to be nerfed? No. If they nerf the passive, WW will still have 6k+ HPS lol.

Agreed. I overheard your Riften talk with Anime the other night. Also, thank you for this DPS summary prior to this message. Like I have been saying for days now; Sorc needs Conservation of Energy to stay competitive and relevant as a pure spec. If Werewolf breaks it, as is abundantly clear to everyone by now, then maybe indeed the only way is to make it only work with class skills.

But then, in its current iteration, it will be far too weak for most setups. So I think the ressource restore should be boosted to 4%. There will be a healing loss, but maybe that is even a good thing?

xylena · April 19

Dracane wrote: »

If Werewolf breaks it, as is abundantly clear to everyone by now, then maybe indeed the only way is to make it only work with class skills.

Doesn't need to be that. Could make it mag/stam cost only (gets rid of the degenerate BfB interaction). Could give WW its own unique Class Mastery (also balances WW across classes this way). I agree Sorc Mastery shouldn't be nerfed at all, just those interactions.

Dracane · April 19

xylena wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If Werewolf breaks it, as is abundantly clear to everyone by now, then maybe indeed the only way is to make it only work with class skills.

Doesn't need to be that. Could make it mag/stam cost only (gets rid of the degenerate BfB interaction). Could give WW its own unique Class Mastery (also balances WW across classes this way). I agree Sorc Mastery shouldn't be nerfed at all, just those interactions.

I dislike this, because I personally depend on this off heal. I do not have 3 dots, as I play a traditional mag sorc with wards instead. So losing this heal at least on my class skills would be horrible. The primary healing actually comes from non-class actions for me. (As Streak currently does not work with it)

Chrlynsch · April 19

Been afk for a while, jumped on pts to test some werewolf pve dps.

Pure:
DK: 140k
Sorc: 137k
Warden: 135k
NB: 132k
Templar: 130k
Necromancer: 122k (poor pure passives)
Arcanist: 122k (poor pure passives)

Subclassing:
130k~ with various skill line mixes

Decimus · April 19

Dracane wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If Werewolf breaks it, as is abundantly clear to everyone by now, then maybe indeed the only way is to make it only work with class skills.

Doesn't need to be that. Could make it mag/stam cost only (gets rid of the degenerate BfB interaction). Could give WW its own unique Class Mastery (also balances WW across classes this way). I agree Sorc Mastery shouldn't be nerfed at all, just those interactions.

I dislike this, because I personally depend on this off heal. I do not have 3 dots, as I play a traditional mag sorc with wards instead. So losing this heal at least on my class skills would be horrible. The primary healing actually comes from non-class actions for me. (As Streak currently does not work with it)

Ironically you have the same people to thank for that that complained about DK getting buffs and now complain about werewolf getting buffs - Hardened Ward heal was absolutely fine in the context of subclassing (DK actually has this with Volcanic Ward now, yet no one even uses it) but it was nerfed due to very misguided feedback that didn't factor in reality.

I also would love shieldstacking playstyle to be more viable compared to playing sorcerer the same way you play literally any other build (i.e. build tanky with HoTs, burst heal back bar), but that has sadly not been the case since the Hardened Ward nerf.

Hopefully they do something about that in the sorcerer rework later this year!

Dracane · April 19

Decimus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If Werewolf breaks it, as is abundantly clear to everyone by now, then maybe indeed the only way is to make it only work with class skills.

Doesn't need to be that. Could make it mag/stam cost only (gets rid of the degenerate BfB interaction). Could give WW its own unique Class Mastery (also balances WW across classes this way). I agree Sorc Mastery shouldn't be nerfed at all, just those interactions.

I dislike this, because I personally depend on this off heal. I do not have 3 dots, as I play a traditional mag sorc with wards instead. So losing this heal at least on my class skills would be horrible. The primary healing actually comes from non-class actions for me. (As Streak currently does not work with it)

Ironically you have the same people to thank for that that complained about DK getting buffs and now complain about werewolf getting buffs - Hardened Ward heal was absolutely fine in the context of subclassing (DK actually has this with Volcanic Ward now, yet no one even uses it) but it was nerfed due to very misguided feedback that didn't factor in reality.

I also would love shieldstacking playstyle to be more viable compared to playing sorcerer the same way you play literally any other build (i.e. build tanky with HoTs, burst heal back bar), but that has sadly not been the case since the Hardened Ward nerf.

Hopefully they do something about that in the sorcerer rework later this year!

I am bitter about this, and I realize who is to blame. Thank you though for reminding me of my grudges.
Glad to see you have a more balanced approach.

Vulkunne · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years.

Also, you are treading into topics you have zero knowledge about. I have spent a considerable amount of time dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and I have NEVER seen your name there. You clearly do not know what a normal DPS value looks like in a duel, nor do you know what's bad or unhealthy DPS. So let me give you some baseline DPS values going forward so we can stop spewing false information:

Bad DPS:
<2k for burst builds
<3k for pressure builds

With this DPS, the only people you're going to kill are complete newbies. If you consistently pull <2k DPS, then there are only 2 scenarios:

1) Your opponent's pressure is so great that you're permanently stuck on back bar.
2) You genuinely have bad mechanics

I have done <2.5k DPS before on my burst build, but that was against a full cancer build with 7k+ DPS. I was basically stuck on back bar 80% of the fight trying to survive. Most people who do <2k-3k DPS generally fall into the 2nd category.

Average DPS:
2k - 2.5k for burst builds
3.5k - 4k for pressure builds

This is where the majority of the playerbase sits at. You have just enough damage to kill other average players, but not enough to kill better ones. The only exception is a pure burst build, which often deals around 3k - 3.5k DPS but can still have the potential to 100-0 someone. The requirement is that you must have exceptional mechanics to kill better players.

Good DPS:
2.5k - 3.5k for burst builds
4k- 4.5k for pressure builds

If your DPS falls in this range, you're above average. Generally, you will win 6-7/10 of your fights with this kind of DPS (8-9/10 if you have exceptional mechanics). The people you're going to lose to are:

1) Those with significantly more DPS
2) Those better than you
3) Those outplaying you

This category is where average players with pressure duel builds and top tier ones with burst builds live. The DPS advantage of pressure duel builds often allow average players to achieve greater DPS than their mechanics alllow, while top-tier players make up for the lack of DPS with their mechanics.

This is where I normally sit at. My burst build can consistently deal 3.5k-4.5k DPS to most people if I weave perfectly (even exceeding some people on pressure builds), but I don't have enough pressure to push past 4.5k unless my opponent is extremely squishy.

Excellent DPS:
4k - 4.5k for burst builds
5k - 5.5k for pressure builds
If you're in this category, then you will win 9/10 of your duels. This is where the top 1% of duelers are at. Go to Stormhaven and you'll maybe find 1-2 people who can achieve this level of DPS.

To achieve this stage, you must have excellent mechanics and a min-maxed build partly specced for dueling. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% a dueling build, but the stats on it should be very high and maximized, and parts of the skills/gears should lean towards 1v1s. Something like Zaan/Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/Monomyth can easily achieve >4.5k DPS with top-tier mechanics. Some classes can make it easier to reach this DPS (DK for example), but you'll still need very good weaving/rotations to consistently pull off 5k- 5.5k DPS.

I sometimes reach 5k DPS on my burst build, but only if my opponent is extremely squishy.

Top-tier DPS:
>5.5k to <6.5k
If you have this DPS, then congratulations, you're in a very small group of duelers who barely lose. The only losses you take are from getting outplayed by someone on or better than your skill level AND with similar DPS. Most Stormhaven duels feel pretty boring for you.

To achieve this level, you must have nigh-perfect weaving and a min-maxed build mostly specced for dueling. Your skills and gears should be used strictly for 1v1 fights. This is where you will see builds incorporate several proc sets and duel skills (like Trap Beast, Unstable Core, etc.)

Uncounterable DPS:
>6.5k
At this stage, you don't lose. Most fights last less than 30 seconds, with some taking as little as 5 seconds. Fights at this stage become a healing check for your opponent. People simply do not have the healing or defense to survive your damage at all. The only losses you incur are from self-mistakes, nothing more. People could be doing their absolute best and you would still obliterate them.

To achieve this stage, you need to have nigh-perfect mechanics and a build purely specced for dueling. However, some builds are just so cancer than you only need to have decent mechanics and still pull 6.5k+ DPS. Pyrebrand/Rele DK is a prime example.

The highest DPS build I've fought against before U49-U50 was Pyrebrand/Rele DK, reaching 7k DPS. That build had 29k HP and 4 damage CPs. U50 WW is almost reaching that DPS with 40k HP, no class mastery passives and the 33% WD modifier. To claim that WW is somehow similar to builds in previous patches is an absurd statement.

I think you need to dial this back a bit. I've PvP'd against @xylena, as well as other contributors on here many times in the past. This includes a couple 1v1s against several as well, including @xylena. It's my understanding many of us are taking a break from PvP in general, not just things like Cyrodiil, not just dueling, but in general because of how crazy the sub meta makes surviving a fight. Another reason is the faction, like @xylena's faction, has overtime become all about Guilds, they're rude yet there are diamonds among them, such as @xylena. That said, @xylena is well respected in Cyrodiil and I am providing this from personal experience, not trying to speak for anyone.

Lots of us are aware of how damage is calculated and how it affects things both on paper and in practice. No one here has a monopoly on that. Furthermore, lots of us play WWs also, it's not just the WW clique on here, it isn't just a handul of people who all consistently agree with each other and seem either blind or dismissive to suggestions offered by others. ZOS needs to try and hear everyone out because there are more people out there using WW than you think and have been for some time now. And yes, DK is extremely friendly to WWs, but this is nothing new. Incorporating DK skills into your WW, is worth more than a passing thought. Again, this is not a new concept.

I await replies to this post.

IncultaWolf · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I did 4k DPS vs the Warden

Pelican here on a better build with more WW experience pulling 6k+ DPS

So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years. Seriously doubt the missing WD will turn 4-6k dps into 10k. This clearly tells me the Sorc/WW interaction is the problem.

Exactly what the issue is, the interaction with the sorc passives that enables this. Decimus posted a very insightful comment and solution in this thread that sums it up perfectly. He has over 10k hours in the game and plays everything in pvp, including werewolf and does more than duel, he does outnumbered open world and battlegrounds. I value his non biased feedback more than most players in here.