CalamityCat wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I think it´s a bit disingenuous to demand proof of all types of PvP content on PTS, especially since it´s realistically impossible to provide. Things like large scale Cyrodiil isn´t going to happen because you´ll never gather 100+ people for testing. Regarding battlegrounds, people have tried in the past to do BG´s on PTS (myself included) and it´s a hot mess with queues never popping even when you coordinate with other groups. While dueling isn´t a metric to decide everything, like with any data it´s how you interpretate the information that´s gathered. Anyone with enough experience of PvP can test something in a duel and make further conclusions if X, Y, Z is going to be overperforming in other contexts. Someone with enough experience can look at patch notes and quickly figure out that certain skills, sets etc will overperform, even without extensive testing. People like React, Pelican, Static, Strepsels etc are people that falls into that category in my opinion.

It's not about "demanding" anything. It's basic testing you would do to find out where the problem lies. How can we point at the WW as the problem without testing if anything else might be causing that problem? If you think a component in your PC isn't working, it's wise to test other possible culprits before you return the wrong part, yes? This is the same thing. I'm not trying to make work for other players, I'm just not convinced other classes would get this result. So I think any nerf needs to focus on where the actual problem lies and target that. I think that's a reasonable POV to have.

As an example, the concerned could simply have a mobile duel to simulate BG/open world type fights, when players move around and use the environment and ranged attacks. Try WW on even just one other less powerful class. No major undertaking is necessary. Especially not if there are experienced PvPers on the test server who have the skills to put together a quick WW on something that isn't a sorc or DK and fight a more mobile duel. This feels more like some PvPers picking what is likely the strongest combo, testing it and announcing that indeed it is strong, therefore WWs need nerfing. I think it's fair to be skeptical of that. Sorry if that seems like nitpicking, but it genuinely isn't.

CalamityCat wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

We don't all play the game seeking out the highest parses on every build we use. Testing other bases could give us a baseline of what the less optimal WW builds can do in comparison. If other classes aren't going to do much with a WW, why nerf the WW and make it even weaker for them? That makes no sense. You nerf the combo that is OP. Some players create builds for fun and enjoyment over raw power, and should be allowed to do so.

I just think that you shouldn’t balance around what rp or fun builds can achieve. Because in PvP, as soon as people realize what’s meta that is what gets played.

CalamityCat wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

Right, so I have 3 questions for you and people demanding more samples:

1) What is your definition of a realistic fight?

Is it BG? Cyrodiil? Dueling? Your definition of a realistic fight as a ball group player is totally different from that of a 1vXer or a duelist. Hence, we need a standardized definition or way of measuring a realistic fight

2) How qualified are you to critique the samples?

How well do you know the mechanics of the game? Do you have good weaving? Do you have good understanding of combat data? How can you prove that you are competent enough to understand these samples and provide an unbiased opinion?

3) What metric do you use to determine whether a skill over or underperforms?

Things like average DPS, max stats, stat uptime, etc. are commonly used. You mentioned playing in a ball group, so metrics like TTK, HPS, and max stats are also looked at, but DPS isn’t. So while it clearly over-performs in 1v1 and small group PvP, it may not do so in ball groups and thus does not require a nerf?

I think it’s worth mentioning, that all the classes including Sorc are getting refreshed. We saw a lot of nerf calls for DK and that was the static response to those. We will likely see the WW meta regardless until Warden drops, then Sorc etc.

If a mastery needs tuned in the meantime, that’s currently on the shop table so adjust those with u50.

Some quotes are in spoiler tags to make this post not 100 miles long.

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

You and Pelican are two people. On Sorc. The only Class so far that has been shown to have potentially problematic Passives that interact with WW Skills. The other couple of people? React said a handful of the people in that clip were top PvPers. So we should nerf an entire playstyle because 1% of players can minmax to the point where if WW IS overtuned, they're able to mow people down? You even said yourself most people who play WW won't be good at it. Which implies they won't be able to hit those numbers. You LITERALLY said that a couple of pages back. So something that a majority of people won't be able to minmax the snot out of should be nerfed because of the 1%?

This has already happened so many times in this game over the years, Sets and Skills get nerfed because the top minoirty of PvPers or PvEers find a way to hit insane numbers. I'm really hoping the current dev team doesn't keep using the sledgehammer when a chisel is more fitting. And yes, when you nerf something, even the people who aren't hitting the top numbers will still feel it, because numbers they can hit with any setup will still drop if things get unduly lowered. It's basically U35 all over again, when people doing top minmax damage resulted in sweeping changes that were meant to make things easier for the average player while nerfing those top end players, essentially lowering the ceiling. But all it did was nerf EVERYONE and people who were doing average or below DPS wound up doing even LESS while the minmaxers just theorycrafted new builds that kept them roughly the same level they were at.

We also aren't trying to sugarcoat anything. We are asking for basic data that for whatever reason no one seems to want to provide. Don't try to put words into our mouth by twisting what we're asking for into something to suit a narrative. Those of us saying to get basic data are trying to figure out if WW is overperforming on EVERY build. We've said numerous times that if it is then yes, at that point tweak it. If it's literally only happening on Sorc with those Passives, though, then it clearly ISN'T WW itself overperforming.

And to clarify any misconceptions or assumptions, I personally don't PvP. I can count on one hand the number of times I've dueled and I haven't touched the other facets of PvP in years. I don't want WW to remain OP in PvP. What I do want is WW not getting nerfed for PvP because some people think the whole playstyle is OP based on ONE build in ONE aspect ov PvP.

Overamera wrote: »

We got video evidence and they still can't understand that WW is overperforming and even funnier is how they are trying to blame other stuff like hiding exploits etc. At this point they are just blindly defending their favorite playstyle.

No, it's called getting basic information before declaring that something is OP. When all the evidence contains the same build information, that isn't evidence. It's posting cherry-picked information.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I think it´s a bit disingenuous to demand proof of all types of PvP content on PTS, especially since it´s realistically impossible to provide. Things like large scale Cyrodiil isn´t going to happen because you´ll never gather 100+ people for testing. Regarding battlegrounds, people have tried in the past to do BG´s on PTS (myself included) and it´s a hot mess with queues never popping even when you coordinate with other groups. While dueling isn´t a metric to decide everything, like with any data it´s how you interpretate the information that´s gathered. Anyone with enough experience of PvP can test something in a duel and make further conclusions if X, Y, Z is going to be overperforming in other contexts. Someone with enough experience can look at patch notes and quickly figure out that certain skills, sets etc will overperform, even without extensive testing. People like React, Pelican, Static, Strepsels etc are people that falls into that category in my opinion.

And you know what? If those things are so hard to test in PTS, then things shouldn't be determined without being able to properly test those other aspects. Because a 1v1 in a duel is a lot different from other PvP aspects. The main thing is you need to stay inside a small duel area or else you lose. You don't have the ability to fall back enough to recoup like in the other types of PvP. You don't have other people coming in to pile on the WW and nuke it. Why can it not be taken into account how much a nerf could affect every other aspect of PvP? And again, I don't PvP, so I'm not trying to argue for it because I want an OP WW. I'm arguing for getting proper info because I don't want to see WW nerfed for PvE over a specific build under specific circumstances.

Dracane wrote: »

No. It is Werewolf. As already stated; those class masteries are not overtuned. They only become overtuned when coupled with Werewolf and proc sets. Pair them with a traditional MagSorc (probably the intended target for these masteries), and they do almost nothing. Static Reverberation needs a change of its mechanic as well, but this is only the cherry on top that pushes Werewolf from OP to broken.

And it can not be said often enough: Werewolf is apparently missing 33% Weapon Damage right now. Add this, and you don't even need Static Reverberation anymore to enter the broken territory.

Being stated is not proof. An opinion or belief is not proof. If those Passives aren't overtuned then it should be easy enough to prove that WW is just as strong on any other Class, right? Yet that hasn't been the case like...at all. Literally the only build being touted as WW being OP are Sorc builds that seem to be running those Passives. If WW is so OP in general why has not a single thing been posted with Warden or DK or NB WWs? It surely can't be THAT hard to set up a build for other Classes to test with.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Why in the heck would you play a nb/templar WW ? Even without the class masteries if you were going to play a WW you picked the class you were going to do it on based on what class passives had the best synergy with WW.

“Just show that you can do the same on this much worse setup people are not going to use” is basically what you are asking.

Because that's not how testing and gathering information works. You can't cherry-pick what you test in order to get the outcome you want, that's bias and doesn't prove anything. You test whatever variables you can. The point in asking people to test other Classes isn't to see if someone can squeeze out every little bit of damage in a super hyper optimized build. The point is to see if WW overperforms in the same Sets on different Classes to rule out whether Sorc Masteries are the problem or if WW can consistently hit really high numbers WITHOUT those Passives. And so far, nothing has indicated the latter.

If BiS is WW in general because it's overperforming, then tweak WW.

If BiS is WW only when coupled with specific Passives and/or Sets, then THOSE interactions need to be tweaked instead of WW as a whole.

hoangdz wrote: »

Right, so I have 3 questions for you and people demanding more samples:

1) What is your definition of a realistic fight?

Is it BG? Cyrodiil? Dueling? Your definition of a realistic fight as a ball group player is totally different from that of a 1vXer or a duelist. Hence, we need a standardized definition or way of measuring a realistic fight

2) How qualified are you to critique the samples?

How well do you know the mechanics of the game? Do you have good weaving? Do you have good understanding of combat data? How can you prove that you are competent enough to understand these samples and provide an unbiased opinion?

3) What metric do you use to determine whether a skill over or underperforms?

Things like average DPS, max stats, stat uptime, etc. are commonly used. You mentioned playing in a ball group, so metrics like TTK, HPS, and max stats are also looked at, but DPS isn’t. So while it clearly over-performs in 1v1 and small group PvP, it may not do so in ball groups and thus does not require a nerf?

1) That's the problem, there CAN'T be a standardized way of defining a 'real' fight when duels and the other aspects of PvP are so fundamentally different. But I will say a real fight is actually trying to win as opposed to standing in one spot, doing static rotations and treating the other person like a parse dummy.

2) I don't think we should be trying to filter out feedback based on someone being ""qualified"" to offer it or not. Being good at weaving, knowing mechanics, none of that matters at all when it comes to the simple question of "Does WW overperform on all Classes or only on Sorc?" and I'm not sure why this simple question needs all these hoops in order for people to ask. It's also odd to imply that people who can't do these things are somehow too imcompetent to be able to ask such a simple question. No one here asking for more proof is biased, we are literally stating "hey we can't claim this ONE and ONLY build that's overperforming means WW as a whole is", we're being as unbiased as possible by saying we need information from WW setups on other Classes to get a full picture. If anything, the people saying it's too OP because of one build in one aspect of PvP are the ones with bias, because they aren't acknowledgeing the fact that WW may not need nerfing outside this build and PvP type.

3) It's really not that complex. You base if a Skill/Passive is overperforming by testing it on/against different builds. In this case, it's as easy as making a WW that's either anything BUT a Sorc but running the same Sets, or even running Sorc but without those Mastery Passives. Surely Pelican, since they were the one who's CMX were posted when running Sorc before, can just..remove those Passives and post the results from that? Like it would take a second to remove those Passives that are potentially the problem, yet all this time has gone on, numerous people have asked for data without these Passives, and it hasn't been provided. Why is that? It should be such a non-issue to prove whether it's WW overperforming on its own or whether it's those Passives lending to unintended/OP interactions in duels and potentially in PvP overall.

Arunei wrote: »

And to clarify any misconceptions or assumptions, I personally don't PvP. I can count on one hand the number of times I've dueled and I haven't touched the other facets of PvP in years. I don't want WW to remain OP in PvP. What I do want is WW not getting nerfed for PvP because some people think the whole playstyle is OP based on ONE build in ONE aspect ov PvP.

.....So let me get this straight. You spent 10 pages arguing with me, @React, @Alchimiste1 who are seasoned PvPers, yet you don't personally PvP?

You are either ragebaiting us pretty damn well, or you are taking a stance in a subject matter which you have zero knowledge on. I'm sorry, but this is where we should stop.

Werewolf needs this buff and if its gutted, then I'm def not coming back. I as well as the other pro werewolf players are people that actually main werewolf and we all know werewolf needs this. Whereas these people complaining dont even use werewolf and their only interaction is fighting against them.

People are complaining that something that SHOULD be porwerful is powerful and that it somewhat threatens their power. They dont even play it, they just dont want another obstacle to overcome and maintain their power in pvp and pve.

I really hope devs do not listen to this vocal minority. Changes and buffs like the ones given to DK's and now werewolves is what will bring players back, and everyone knows this game needs that since elder scrolls 6 wont be out for another 6 years lol.

Darkness734 wrote: »

Whereas these people complaining dont even use werewolf and their only interaction is fighting against them.

Which is a perfectly valid cause for concern because this is a multiplayer game. This is fairly obvious. If this were Skyrim then nobody would care how powerful your modded WW is. But you do not exist within a single-player vacuum and so overall game balance is a consideration that must be respected.

Everyone wants the thing that they play to be overpowered. It is basic human nature. It is basic gamer nature. It is basic gamer nature to deflect and say that what is overpowered is somehow not actually overpowered. None of the conversations in this thread are unique. Just replace 'WW' with 'X' and it is about 75% of total forum content.

Can we make it so the glow only appears during combat.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So how's WW doing on non Sorcs? If like Decimus said Sorc Mastery is that far ahead on WW then that's the real problem here, and really just Conservation of Energy (players need to stop crying about dot pressure not letting them spend 40 minutes resetting the fight).

Wildfire is fine, Pyrebrand is the problem in that interaction, nerf sets not classes.

WW is still doing fine? This is a screenshot of my WW achieving 6k HPS for almost 4 minutes in a duel with 23k resists and ZERO class mastery passives:




I have 10 minutes of WW experience, on an unoptimized build with ZERO class masteries, and missing 33% WD modifier. I almost killed the guy several times who was using Warden class masteries. Have Pelican with his build and WW experience and I can assure you that the result would be a lot different.

When only 2 builds are truly out of line, while all others get to the power level they should be at, then it isn't the thing (the passives in this case) that need nerfing, but those 2 broken builds that need the adjustments. This includes sets and their interactions at the very least.

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So how's WW doing on non Sorcs? If like Decimus said Sorc Mastery is that far ahead on WW then that's the real problem here, and really just Conservation of Energy (players need to stop crying about dot pressure not letting them spend 40 minutes resetting the fight).

Wildfire is fine, Pyrebrand is the problem in that interaction, nerf sets not classes.

WW is still doing fine? This is a screenshot of my WW achieving 6k HPS for almost 4 minutes in a duel with 23k resists and ZERO class mastery passives:




I have 10 minutes of WW experience, on an unoptimized build with ZERO class masteries, and missing 33% WD modifier. I almost killed the guy several times who was using Warden class masteries. Have Pelican with his build and WW experience and I can assure you that the result would be a lot different.

See, this is what people have been asking for for a handful of days now.

And now a genuine question, at what point do we consider something too much damage? 6k is quite a bit lower than 10k, and it's already been established that a majority of people won't be playing at top PvPer level. So for the average player who more than likely won't be running 100% fully optimized builds, what would be an acceptable amount of DPS?

Dracane wrote: »

Yes, Templar WW is also crazy with sacred ground, and Warden WW can also be crazy with 1665 base WPD. It is not only Sorc. But obviously people will use the most profane example to make their point clear.

Is MagSorc broken because of these talents? No, not even close. So it's not only those passives that are problematic, since in most cases they work as intended and achieve what they should. It's only certain builds that push things over the edge; the most problematic of which is Werewolf.

Would it be at all possible to get any sort of CMX or video of people running other Classes for WW to get comparison numbers? That's another thing people have been asking for, data from other builds with actual numbers so we can see the differences.

And if it's specific interactions that are a problem, then those specific interactions are what need to be addressed, rather than any kind of blanket nerf. And the best way to see what specific interactions are the problem so that they can be targeted is to get numbers of those interactions. Knowing what's making what too strong is the best way of figuring out how to tweak those things. Perhaps the answer is WW not having access to Mastery Passives. Perhaps the answer is tweaking values on certain WW Skills. Perhaps the answer is adding some sort of WW debuff to Battle Spirit.

But without adequate data of what is a problem and what isn't, it's really hard to determine WHAT exactly needs that changing.

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

Disable class passives, pure class passives and weapon passives like bow still work iirc for werewolf.
Instead, add werewolf specific passives we can choose from in the same way as pure class passives.

This way you can enjoy werewolf with any class.

Clearly there's too much conflict over class passives on werewolf, there shouldn't be one meta class for werewolves.. again.

Please for the love of everything DO NOT DO THIS!
This is what PvEers fear, awful heavyhanded changes from the PvP crowd that ruin any and all fun and build diversity. And NO, weapon passives DO NOT WORK, that is actually a major issue that werewolf still struggles with.

coop500 wrote: »

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

Disable class passives, pure class passives and weapon passives like bow still work iirc for werewolf.
Instead, add werewolf specific passives we can choose from in the same way as pure class passives.

This way you can enjoy werewolf with any class.

Clearly there's too much conflict over class passives on werewolf, there shouldn't be one meta class for werewolves.. again.

Please for the love of everything DO NOT DO THIS!
This is what PvEers fear, awful heavyhanded changes from the PvP crowd that ruin any and all fun and build diversity. And NO, weapon passives DO NOT WORK, that is actually a major issue that werewolf still struggles with.

I don't think they originally intended class passives to interact with werewolf when they designed them, seems like sorc, warden and templar are getting the better options over the other classes and that will just force werewolf players to gravitate toward those classes which sucks for werewolves who's already playing other classes, regardless if you're a PvEr or PvPer...

By adding werewolf specific passives we can choose from, in the same way as pure class passives. Assuming they would be interesting enough, you could express yourself by mixing sets with those passives and play werewolf on any class, however you want.

I’d even add a few class themed werewolf passive per class. Like, Warden werewolves could unlock an "Ice Claws" passive that adds frost damage to light attacks or something and so on, and then the other class theme werewolf passives would share similar power level. I think this whole thing needs more work put into it.

Did major expedition from bow stopped working when in werewolf form?