Removing Map Based Leads?

Asdara · April 8

@ZOS_Kevin could we get an update on how the team plan to tackle this issue pls?

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 8

Let me say, I absolutely support the housing community. There are some very breathtaking houses out there. Very talented people. I never got into it very much because I've basically come to terms with my bad rng. I know its bad, I know others who can get these plans and other things in the first ten tries and I cant in 50. On the same note, it does happen with gear and other things as well. Or even fileting fish.

I think things like luck and chance add fun to the game but in some cases, it causes people to give up on it in boredom or frustration. The IA leads and things are OK, but still a grind. Perhaps adding other ways to obtain these or incorporating it into new systems like Tomes might be a solution.

This is a good thread. I think all of us experience this at some point in the game.

onyxorb · April 9

A normal amount of grind and RNG is fine, this is an MMO and it's expected.
However my issue has been that the levels of nested RNG is so bad that even gatcha games have better RNG than map based furnishing.
This is especially true past the first drop when you are trying to fill your codex so you can purchase the furnishing. At least most gatcha games have a mercy drop rate.

I totally agree with having additional methods of obtaining the leads. If they let unopened maps become keyed to the zone you are in when you open it, I assume that would help as well.

MoonPile · April 9

Asdara wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin could we get an update on how the team plan to tackle this issue pls?

FWIW, The Real Endgame are getting ready to release the results-presentation from the poll:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/689218/housing-antiquities-external-poll-treasure-map-antiquity-leads

Soon-ish; there's quite a lot of data to get through in this volunteer project. I hope the devs will take it into consideration.

& Re: CatalinaWineMixer2 & OnyxOrb above,

Housing "requires" playing nearly EVERY part of the game to be able to get the items we need. Some of them were even locked behind Vet-HM content in the past (I'm glad there's been less-to-none of that lately) and PVP (I pretend those don't exist personally, but some housers have those too).

So we know how good or bad the RNG is throughout xD and I can confidently say that map-exclusive leads are the worst, for all the reasons stated prior, in this thread and that poll.

But definitely, some non-map leads can get exasperating too (the only saving grace being that at least they "only" cost you time, not millions of gold in addition), and,

onyxorb wrote: »

I totally agree with having additional methods of obtaining the leads. If they let unopened maps become keyed to the zone you are in when you open it, I assume that would help as well.

MoonPile · April 10

lol at the state of Solstice maps on PC NA. 50k is "on sale" 🙄

MidnightDuel · April 14

Sadly, there wasn't anything in the U50 Patch Notes to suggest any relief from double-locked antiquities involving zone Treasure Chest Maps.

The Patch Notes did say:

5 new furnishings can be earned from Antiquity Leads in Glenumbra, including a new Armory Station!

Of course there was no mention of the actual source for the leads, which could or could not include treasure maps. The one lead I got on the PTS for the new Armory Station came from a Thieves' Trove located in Glenumbra and dug up in Hew's Bane.

I find it interesting that the new "The Prowler's Talisman" is being toughted as "a new kind of mythic that is available to everyone ... It is not found in antiquities. Rather, you can acquire it by going through the new Thieves Guild storyline."

MoonPile · April 16

I've now taken a look at the U50 Antiquities on PTS... there's one in particular that's really awesome, that I'm trying not to be pre-sad about. I don't even want to name it yet because it's basically false advertising if we can't even get it

I will only say it's very large and shiny.

I've sent in a feedback asking for it not to be in Maps, at least. I hope it's not too naive to hope they'll go the Stone-Nest Gazebo route with this new item – make it fun and reasonable to get!

At least Glenumbra maps are not (for now) as wildly expensive as newer-DLC ones, which is a significant bulk of the problem. But the grind is still so horribly boring and long, I do not want to do it for ANY items.

MidnightDuel · April 16

MoonPile wrote: »

I've now taken a look at the U50 Antiquities on PTS... there's one in particular that's really awesome, that I'm trying not to be pre-sad about. I don't even want to name it yet because it's basically false advertising if we can't even get it I will only say it's very large and shiny.

I didn't even look at the Antiquities while on the PTS. I suppose I need to go back and spin up a template character.

It's hard to know the source for leads for Antiquities on the PTS and rare for ZOS to call out the sources. At least with Glenumbra maps, they're base game and not considered especially rare. Glenumbra maps can drop leads for motifs and the Well furnishing. I'm just hoping the leads have sources more interesting than maps too.

Contraptions · April 16

Either make the leads drop from normal treasure chests/safeboxes too in that zone. Or make the lead drop guaranteed and curated. Stop wasting our time and money for us who actually care about completing the codex.

lillybit · April 16

I helped my daughter out over Jubilee, getting her stocked up with motifs. I found all the Ancestral High Elf ones for her except Axes - I searched almost every guild store on PS EU looking for it and I couldn't find it anywhere.

Traveling all over the place searching for it still felt better than trying to dig up a lead for it, even if it is just a base zone, and I hate that I'll still have to!

anadandy · April 16

MidnightDuel wrote: »

Sadly, even with a complete codex, the West Weald tapestries and fresco aren't purchasable. Unless something changes, the only source for those is West Weald Treasure Map leads.

That is very disappointing, thanks for the heads up. I won't even bother using those maps now, they can pile up until something changes.

MidnightDuel · April 16

anadandy wrote: »

MidnightDuel wrote: »

Sadly, even with a complete codex, the West Weald tapestries and fresco aren't purchasable. Unless something changes, the only source for those is West Weald Treasure Map leads.

That is very disappointing, thanks for the heads up. I won't even bother using those maps now, they can pile up until something changes.

I keep looking to see if they've snuck one in, like they did with the Mushroom Book from Necrom. But so far any green-lead furnishing and nearly all the blue-lead furnishings are not purchasable even with a completed codex.

lillybit wrote: »

I helped my daughter out over Jubilee, getting her stocked up with motifs. I found all the Ancestral High Elf ones for her except Axes - I searched almost every guild store on PS EU looking for it and I couldn't find it anywhere.

Traveling all over the place searching for it still felt better than trying to dig up a lead for it, even if it is just a base zone, and I hate that I'll still have to!

I think a couple things are happening: 1) stackable maps mean that players don't have to clear inventory-hogging maps as often, and 2) extended times to dig up leads mean that players don't have to clear their list of leads as often or let them expire. Either way, I've noticed inventories for certain items are down. At least Antiquity motifs can be traded, whereas Antiquity furnishings cannot.

MoonPile · April 17

Regarding Antiquity motifs, they also have FAR better drop chances than furnishings. For example, as anyone knows if they've gone out and done a map on a new character or new account in recent years: it's almost guaranteed you'll get the motif near-instantly. Then, as Midnight said, they're also tradeable. AND you only need 1, not 3 to unlock.

Furnishing leads are completely terrible.

onyxorb · April 17

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. A LOT of the furnishings on PTS seem to be things we've been asking for in streams, discords, and the forums. I'm honestly still in shock over the number of requests that have been implemented.

So I'm REALLY hoping that they are addressing this issue as well. Either easier ways to farm maps for a zone, or alternate ways to get the leads.

MidnightDuel · April 17

I just went back on PTS to check out the Antiquities with leads from a template character. As mentioned in the patch notes, there appear to be five (5) furnishings from Antiquities in U50:

Happy to report that all five of the Antiquity furnishings can be purchased in Glenumbra from the Achievent Furnisher after completing the codex, including the new Armory Station. They are all from purple or gold leads.

While we still don't know all the sources for the leads, four of them are excavated in Glenumbra, while the Armory Station leads are dug up in Hew's Bane.

onyxorb · April 18

Oh I have needs for that gold pile and the window could be fun too.
Not going to hold my breath yet. If they are tied to Glenumbra maps, all that will happen is that glenumbra maps will shoot up in price, and I still won't be able to afford them.

Hopefully they can be farmed some other way (stealing/looting etc).

MidnightDuel · April 18

onyxorb wrote: »

Oh I have needs for that gold pile and the window could be fun too.
Not going to hold my breath yet. If they are tied to Glenumbra maps, all that will happen is that glenumbra maps will shoot up in price, and I still won't be able to afford them.

Hopefully they can be farmed some other way (stealing/looting etc).

The one lead that I found for the Armory was from a Thieve's Trove in Glenumbra. So there's a good chance the other parts will drop from other nefarious activities in the zone. Could also be tied to Hew's Bane activities too, since the leads are excavated there. I would expect some to drop from delve and WBs, in keeping with what we saw with the other multi-part crafting stations.

There are new "Favors" and random "Incursions" being added with U50. Perhaps those could be sources for the tapestry, window and stele leads.

The Zenithar Event is also currently on the PTS, so it's also possible that the "Zenithar Devotional Stele" could come from the event activities, but I really hope not. If it's a rare drop from a short-time event, that could further complicate collecting the codex required to purchase additional copies. Edited to add: Lead for Zenithar Devotional Stele dropped from the Glenumbra World Bosses located at The Wolf's Camp

Additional Note: It took two times killing the WB to get the first lead and another four times killing them to get the second lead.

If anyone else has been spending time on the U50 PTS, have you found any leads?

MidnightDuel · April 18

Not enough data to say if this is anything or not, but I opened four "Unopened Treasure Maps" on the PTS and got these:

No lead from the Glenumbra map, but I did get a blue lead for "Stone-Nest Totem, Massive Skull" from the Solstice Map. Of course that's one I want more of on live and I get it on PTS.

Additional Note: Opened another 68 "Unopened Treasure Maps" on the PTS and came out with another two (2) Solstice maps, one (1) Glenumbra map, three (3) Hew's Bane maps, two (2) Telvanni Peninsula maps, two (2) West Weald maps, and a bunch of other useless maps.

onyxorb · April 19

MidnightDuel wrote: »

Not enough data to say if this is anything or not, but I opened four "Unopened Treasure Maps" on the PTS and got these:

No lead from the Glenumbra map, but I did get a blue lead for "Stone-Nest Totem, Massive Skull" from the Solstice Map. Of course that's one I want more of on live and I get it on PTS.

Additional Note: Opened another 68 "Unopened Treasure Maps" on the PTS and came out with another two (2) Solstice maps, one (1) Glenumbra map, three (3) Hew's Bane maps, two (2) Telvanni Peninsula maps, two (2) West Weald maps, and a bunch of other useless maps.

Hrm, was kind of hoping they would be testing out code to let the 'unopened maps' be keyed to the zone you opened them in.

Honestly, if we have an unopened map, and we opened it, increase the chance it is tied to our current zone, and make it bound. That way we're only using it to benefit ourselves and not trying to milk the system for gold (by reselling the map we created for targeted zones). Throw us a bone here Devs.

MidnightDuel · April 19

onyxorb wrote: »

Hrm, was kind of hoping they would be testing out code to let the 'unopened maps' be keyed to the zone you opened them in.

Honestly, if we have an unopened map, and we opened it, increase the chance it is tied to our current zone, and make it bound. That way we're only using it to benefit ourselves and not trying to milk the system for gold (by reselling the map we created for targeted zones). Throw us a bone here Devs.

Generating a zone map from where an "Unopened Treasure Map" is opened would be ideal. Even an increased chance would be preferred to completely random maps. Anything less is still double-locking leads behind maps and and rare lead drops.

I've been really surprised how few "Unopened Treasure Maps" are dropping compared with how many zone-specific maps dropped prior to U49. I used to get double map drops from Thieves Troves all the time and now rarely get one. I've only had a double "Unopened Treasure Map" drop twice since the update.

I opened all 68 "Unopened Treasure Maps" on PTS that I had collected prior to the character copy plus four others obtained while on the PTS, three of which were "stolen" from Thieves Troves. Of the 72 opened, I was pleasantly surprised that the Solstice Treasure Maps had a drop rate nearly equal to other zones. I feel that prior to U49, Solstice maps had a much lower drop rate compared to other zones.

BretonMage · April 19

MidnightDuel wrote: »

I opened all 68 "Unopened Treasure Maps" on PTS that I had collected prior to the character copy plus four others obtained while on the PTS, three of which were "stolen" from Thieves Troves. Of the 72 opened, I was pleasantly surprised that the Solstice Treasure Maps had a drop rate nearly equal to other zones. I feel that prior to U49, Solstice maps had a much lower drop rate compared to other zones.

Oh, that's promising news. I hope they bumped up the chances for West Weald maps as well.

DarthCuddlefluff · April 19

onyxorb wrote: »

Devs, could you take a SERIOUS look at Map based Antiquity Leads?
ESO seems to want to cater to the housing community, but the existing of Map based leads is actually causing some people to give up on certain furnishings, and/or stop completing builds...

Maps are something that are VERY hard to farm, it takes RNG to get them, RNG to get the right zone, and then RNG to get A lead, THEN additional RNG to get the lead you actually need.
When you have nearly 20 leads tied to a particular map, the chances of getting something you need make Crown Crate drop rates look impressive.

Could we PLEASE change how map leads work, or remove them? Other leads are easily farmable, do IA, or a dungeon, or a WB, or PVP, or a trial until the lead drops.
Map leads don't work that way since we can't reliably farm maps for a particular zone in the first place.

Even when purchasing stacks of maps, the RNG is just 'not' there. Honestly, it's to the point where we just assume we won't get certain furnishings if they are locked behind map leads.

If they MUST stay tied to maps, at least make maps for a particular zone something we can reliably farm by activities in that zone?
Also please make it something we can farm without getting blocked out by other players or bots (ie trying to farm limited number of treasure chest or safeboxes).

So this was long winded, but in summary, PLEASE, come up with a better solution?

To get the apocryphal well in triplicate so I can just buy it, I had to do THOUSANDS of maps for Telvanni Peninsula and Apocrypha

MidnightDuel · April 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Oh, that's promising news. I hope they bumped up the chances for West Weald maps as well.

West Weald maps had a similar drop rate as Solstice maps in my extrememly limited test. To be fair West Weald maps consistently dropped before and even had an event where the drop rate was increased and maps included in the event rewards. Solstice didn't ever have that boost.

DarthCuddlefluff wrote: »

To get the apocryphal well in triplicate so I can just buy it, I had to do THOUSANDS of maps for Telvanni Peninsula and Apocrypha

The Apocryphal Well was one of the first of the double-locked Antiquity furnishings and had the added insult of being a three-part Antiquity. I completed all the possible codices for West Weald long before I was finally able to finish the codex for the well, which came out a year before with Necrom.

BretonMage · April 20

MidnightDuel wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Oh, that's promising news. I hope they bumped up the chances for West Weald maps as well.

West Weald maps had a similar drop rate as Solstice maps in my extrememly limited test. To be fair West Weald maps consistently dropped before and even had an event where the drop rate was increased and maps included in the event rewards. Solstice didn't ever have that boost.

DarthCuddlefluff wrote: »

To get the apocryphal well in triplicate so I can just buy it, I had to do THOUSANDS of maps for Telvanni Peninsula and Apocrypha

The Apocryphal Well was one of the first of the double-locked Antiquity furnishings and had the added insult of being a three-part Antiquity. I completed all the possible codices for West Weald long before I was finally able to finish the codex for the well, which came out a year before with Necrom.

I haven't tried farming for Solstice antiquities, but I haven't had any luck with either Apocrypha or West Weald maps or antiquities. I farmed the hell out of West Weald maps for half a year and am still on 1/3 for the purples.

barney2525 · April 20

Lilarna wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

If the odds of three things happening in series are each 1%, but only if the previous thing happened, the odds of all three happening are 1 in a million, literally.

At 10% chance for each the odds that all three will happen in series is 1 in 1,000.

I dont know what the odds of each are, but you see how thos can get out of hand really quickly when sequential rng requirements are strung together.

These numbers are appaling. :'(

This is just the Google defined ' Nested RNG '

I am appalled we have been so appaled.

barney2525 · April 20

Asdara wrote: »

i'm at the point where have 5 character slot dedicated to holding WW maps in case theres an event for better drop, this is beyond ridiculous

5 character slots dedicated to holding WW maps ????

I don't understand what that means.

How many maps are you storing ?

MidnightDuel · April 20

barney2525 wrote: »

This is just the Google defined ' Nested RNG '

"Nested" sounds cute, like those traditional Russian Matryoshka dolls. But there's nothing cute about double-locking Antiquity furnishings in ESO.

MidnightDuel · April 20

barney2525 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

i'm at the point where have 5 character slot dedicated to holding WW maps in case theres an event for better drop, this is beyond ridiculous

5 character slots dedicated to holding WW maps ????

I don't understand what that means.

How many maps are you storing ?

Perhaps they started collecting the maps before U49 allowed treasure maps to stack?

allochthons · April 20

onyxorb wrote: »

Honestly, if we have an unopened map, and we opened it, increase the chance it is tied to our current zone, and make it bound. That way we're only using it to benefit ourselves and not trying to milk the system for gold (by reselling the map we created for targeted zones). Throw us a bone here Devs.

I think this needs to be workshopped a bit. Because what other source of maps are there right now? They're all unopened. So we wouldn't be able to sell any new maps under this system. (My logic is sound there, isn't it? If not, forget I said anything.)

I'm not against bumping up the occupied zone increase chance, but the bound part is iffy. They could do something like "maps opened in houses are unbound" or something, but that seems unnecessarily complicated.

MoonPile · April 22

fPTS

allochthons wrote: »

onyxorb wrote: »

Honestly, if we have an unopened map, and we opened it, increase the chance it is tied to our current zone, and make it bound. That way we're only using it to benefit ourselves and not trying to milk the system for gold (by reselling the map we created for targeted zones). Throw us a bone here Devs.

I think this needs to be workshopped a bit. Because what other source of maps are there right now? They're all unopened. So we wouldn't be able to sell any new maps under this system. (My logic is sound there, isn't it? If not, forget I said anything.)

I'm not against bumping up the occupied zone increase chance, but the bound part is iffy. They could do something like "maps opened in houses are unbound" or something, but that seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agree. It's less so even the Maps themselves (saying so even as a Map-hater) than the 3/3 codex completion requirement and the worsened RNG for 2/3 - 3/3.

It could be solved by keeping 1/3 chances as-is and removing the 3/3-to-buy requirement.

Then, if someone wants to keep using maps beyond 1/3, they can: every lead after 1/3 is a "free" item. Just like every other pickup Antiquity: I'm more than happy to get another "free" croc skull or Ayleid-smoke-machine-tree.