Good DK buff

hoangdz · April 17

Since when is 8-9k DPS the norm? This was a 9k DPS duel over 4 minutes, with both of us stalemating. Pyrebrand and Wildfire doing 2.6k combined DPS. If I wasn't on a Sorc camping 4 HoTs I would have died in 20 seconds. My DPS was abysmally low compared to his because I had to play defense for the majority of the fight just to survive from the multiple instances of damage procs:

Another screenshot:

16.9k damage was from Molten + Heart of Flame, and the other 10.6k came from just DoTs/status effect procs/proc sets. All of this happened in 1 second.

Pyrebrand's synergy with the Wildfire passive needs to be seriously reconsidered. Both the set and this passive have the ability to proc twice in a second. This results in free, unhealthy damage procs like these:

In the screenshot above, Pyrebrand and Wildfire did a combined 7635 "burst" damage in 0.5s to someone with 33k resists and 3 defensive CPs. This is not healthy at all lol

Dracane · April 17

I was surprised DK even received Class Mastery at this moment, powerful ones at that, since the intention was for non-reworked classes to make due until their own remaster?

hoangdz · April 17

Dracane wrote: »

I was surprised DK even received Class Mastery at this moment, powerful ones at that, since the intention was for non-reworked classes to make due until their own remaster?

It's disgustingly overpowered. DK on the live server already has excellent burst with Heart of Flame + Incinerate + Shattering Rocks + Whip. DK on the PTS is another level of power with class masteries. Wildfire passive gives so much extra pressure along with Pyrebrand, constituting a build that has insane burst and pressure capabilities.

While the burst combo is predictable as it's identical to the live server's, the addition of ~2.5-3k extra DPS from stacking multiple instances of DoT effects is what made DK so broken on the PTS. You're not just trying to avoid the actual burst combo, you're trying to survive against 10-15 instances of damage that can proc in 1 second, creating a pseudo "burst" on top. This pseudo "burst" is hard to counter unless you have some form of cleanse, and even then, it's not always guaranteed because sets like Mara's Balm have a long cooldown, and cleanse abilities are both expensive and ineffective at removing all of these debuffs.

The only 2 reliable ways to survive and hopefully beat PTS DK are to either outparse them (on WW, another DK, or similarly high DPS builds) or stack insane amounts of healing. Not many classes can do both at the same time.

Thumbless_Bot · April 17

Dracane wrote: »

I was surprised DK even received Class Mastery at this moment, powerful ones at that, since the intention was for non-reworked classes to make due until their own remaster?

Zos is all ahead full and I do not think they are considering current playing experience even if they said they were, which i am not sure they did.

Unless you are on dk the game is virtually unplayable right now and that seems it will continue. At least for pvp.

I want to see the rework completed before I make any judgements but have drastiy reduced my play time in the meantime.

It's just not fun and I am worn out.

xylena · April 17

hoangdz wrote: »

Since when is 8-9k DPS the norm?

Like you said, we're past the point of no return. DK, Sorc, and WW can all do this, so 8-9k dps with endless sustain is apparently their model for now. I would wager that if you tune more offensively, you can outmaneuver and outrace their dps, especially on Sorc at your skill level.

If we don't want to see 8-9k dps with infinite sustain, then we don't want to nerf classes, we want to nerf all the underlying inflated stats and busted sets enabling these extremes. Definitely agree that Pyre shouldn't proc Wildfire, and I don't think Pyre should proc from range either.

MincMincMinc · April 17

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Since when is 8-9k DPS the norm?

Like you said, we're past the point of no return. DK, Sorc, and WW can all do this, so 8-9k dps with endless sustain is apparently their model for now. I would wager that if you tune more offensively, you can outmaneuver and outrace their dps, especially on Sorc at your skill level.

If we don't want to see 8-9k dps with infinite sustain, then we don't want to nerf classes, we want to nerf all the underlying inflated stats and busted sets enabling these extremes. Definitely agree that Pyre shouldn't proc Wildfire, and I don't think Pyre should proc from range either.

I still remember the days where even on sorc you'd have to use the 3rd bar for darkdeal and spell symmetry for sustain. Now it feels like without even trying builds have 2k+ mag and stam regen.

Half the meta issues we've seen with "tank meta" and then "damage meta" probably wouldn't have been an issue if sustain was more in check.

xylena · April 17

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Half the meta issues we've seen with "tank meta" and then "damage meta" probably wouldn't have been an issue if sustain was more in check.

Their new model seems to be letting players have infinite sustain, but giving them enough pressure damage to proactively end fights and not just watch opponents turtle and reset forever. This would be an acceptable balance to me if it plays out this way.

We do need to avoid the direction of brainless set-and-forget pressure like the current interaction between ranged LA spam, Pyrebrand, and Wildfire Embers. Procs shouldn't proc procs. Sorc Static Reverbation is better designed, doesn't proc off procs or status, demands the player build for and actively stack damage sources from active skills.

React · April 17

This kind of DPS coming from brain off spam of light attacks and/or 1-2 abilities has to stop. It is super unhealthy gameplay, has zero skill based counterplay and only minimal build-based counterplay, and is overall just not fun to fight.

It's fine for dot builds to exist, but we should be encouraging more engaged gameplay than "my light attacks make you take 5k dps". Pyreband and wildfire are some of the worst offenders, but they're not the only things like that on PTS either. Werewolf and some of the sorc & warden status setups come to mind, too.

Would really like to see the pyre change reverted and the wildfire passive reworked into something that isn't a free damage proc. I posted this in another thread, but some ideas could be;

Increases your damage by X% for each dragonknight dot you have active on your opponent.
Causes your opponent to take X% more damage from dots for each dragonknight dot they have active on them.
For each of your DK dots active on your target, increase the damage of newly applied DK dots by x%.

Thumbless_Bot · April 18

React wrote: »

This kind of DPS coming from brain off spam of light attacks and/or 1-2 abilities has to stop. It is super unhealthy gameplay, has zero skill based counterplay and only minimal build-based counterplay, and is overall just not fun to fight.

It's fine for dot builds to exist, but we should be encouraging more engaged gameplay than "my light attacks make you take 5k dps". Pyreband and wildfire are some of the worst offenders, but they're not the only things like that on PTS either. Werewolf and some of the sorc & warden status setups come to mind, too.

Would really like to see the pyre change reverted and the wildfire passive reworked into something that isn't a free damage proc. I posted this in another thread, but some ideas could be;
Increases your damage by X% for each dragonknight dot you have active on your opponent.

Causes your opponent to take X% more damage from dots for each dragonknight dot they have active on them.

For each of your DK dots active on your target, increase the damage of newly applied DK dots by x%.

I do not say this to be inflammatory towards zos at all but I really believe that they are trying to remove skill from the game in every way possible, both pvp and pve.

I cant believe what I experience in pvp recently and when I do meander over to pve for a shoulder piece or helmet or mythic it is just as bad. My tank and two or three dps spamming green water hoses at bosses and trash mobs.

The game is a shell of what it used to be and this apparently what they want.

Dracane · April 18

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

React wrote: »

This kind of DPS coming from brain off spam of light attacks and/or 1-2 abilities has to stop. It is super unhealthy gameplay, has zero skill based counterplay and only minimal build-based counterplay, and is overall just not fun to fight.

It's fine for dot builds to exist, but we should be encouraging more engaged gameplay than "my light attacks make you take 5k dps". Pyreband and wildfire are some of the worst offenders, but they're not the only things like that on PTS either. Werewolf and some of the sorc & warden status setups come to mind, too.

Would really like to see the pyre change reverted and the wildfire passive reworked into something that isn't a free damage proc. I posted this in another thread, but some ideas could be;
Increases your damage by X% for each dragonknight dot you have active on your opponent.

Causes your opponent to take X% more damage from dots for each dragonknight dot they have active on them.

For each of your DK dots active on your target, increase the damage of newly applied DK dots by x%.

I do not say this to be inflammatory towards zos at all but I really believe that they are trying to remove skill from the game in every way possible, both pvp and pve.

I cant believe what I experience in pvp recently and when I do meander over to pve for a shoulder piece or helmet or mythic it is just as bad. My tank and two or three dps spamming green water hoses at bosses and trash mobs.

The game is a shell of what it used to be and this apparently what they want.

I thought yesterday, when I saw all those weird new skills and flashy skill styles in a BG, that if our past selves saw this a decade ago, we would probably suffer a heart attack, because the game has just changed that drastically. But then I also thought that the same could be said about any MMO that has run for some while.

Yet is it truly worse? In some ways yes. But overall it's more fun today for me. So many options to play and to craft your build with spell crafting and different sets. I think it's more interesting now, even if I also loved the simplicity of the old days.

The only thing that was 100% better back then, was that no one even thought of so heretical an idea as a STAM Sorc.

Malprave · April 18

Dracane wrote: »

I was surprised DK even received Class Mastery at this moment, powerful ones at that, since the intention was for non-reworked classes to make due until their own remaster?

No consideration given to the loss of whip stacking damage? That's a fifteen percent damage loss.

BattleAxe · April 18

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

React wrote: »

This kind of DPS coming from brain off spam of light attacks and/or 1-2 abilities has to stop. It is super unhealthy gameplay, has zero skill based counterplay and only minimal build-based counterplay, and is overall just not fun to fight.

It's fine for dot builds to exist, but we should be encouraging more engaged gameplay than "my light attacks make you take 5k dps". Pyreband and wildfire are some of the worst offenders, but they're not the only things like that on PTS either. Werewolf and some of the sorc & warden status setups come to mind, too.

Would really like to see the pyre change reverted and the wildfire passive reworked into something that isn't a free damage proc. I posted this in another thread, but some ideas could be;
Increases your damage by X% for each dragonknight dot you have active on your opponent.

Causes your opponent to take X% more damage from dots for each dragonknight dot they have active on them.

For each of your DK dots active on your target, increase the damage of newly applied DK dots by x%.

I do not say this to be inflammatory towards zos at all but I really believe that they are trying to remove skill from the game in every way possible, both pvp and pve.

I cant believe what I experience in pvp recently and when I do meander over to pve for a shoulder piece or helmet or mythic it is just as bad. My tank and two or three dps spamming green water hoses at bosses and trash mobs.

The game is a shell of what it used to be and this apparently what they want.

I wouldn’t say they are removing skill but allowing for the players to be on par to more skilled players with less effort

xylena · April 18

BattleAxe wrote: »

I wouldn’t say they are removing skill but allowing for the players to be on par to more skilled players with less effort

It doesn't necessarily work that way in practice. Low skill ceiling for one aspect of gameplay means sweaty players can now apply that skill somehwere else.

Look at the ball groups. So much of their playstyle is now automated, but instead of seeing pugs replicate that automation, the performance gap continues to widen.

Some players criticize Vengeance for this reason but I very much enjoy focusing my skills on combat prowess without having to prep for gear as a threat, and 1vX bad players just the same.

BattleAxe · April 19

xylena wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I wouldn’t say they are removing skill but allowing for the players to be on par to more skilled players with less effort

It doesn't necessarily work that way in practice. Low skill ceiling for one aspect of gameplay means sweaty players can now apply that skill somehwere else.

Look at the ball groups. So much of their playstyle is now automated, but instead of seeing pugs replicate that automation, the performance gap continues to widen.

Some players criticize Vengeance for this reason but I very much enjoy focusing my skills on combat prowess without having to prep for gear as a threat, and 1vX bad players just the same.

There in lines the problem sweats are gonna take anything and use/abuse to the max no ands ifs or buts essentially yet when people get something nerfed because the sweats well doesn’t hurt them they just move on to next broken thing.

Dracane · April 19

BattleAxe wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I wouldn’t say they are removing skill but allowing for the players to be on par to more skilled players with less effort

It doesn't necessarily work that way in practice. Low skill ceiling for one aspect of gameplay means sweaty players can now apply that skill somehwere else.

Look at the ball groups. So much of their playstyle is now automated, but instead of seeing pugs replicate that automation, the performance gap continues to widen.

Some players criticize Vengeance for this reason but I very much enjoy focusing my skills on combat prowess without having to prep for gear as a threat, and 1vX bad players just the same.

There in lines the problem sweats are gonna take anything and use/abuse to the max no ands ifs or buts essentially yet when people get something nerfed because the sweats well doesn’t hurt them they just move on to next broken thing.

And it is already determined. Judging by wording in the PTS summary ZoS gave, nerfs are already locked in.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Since when is 8-9k DPS the norm?

Like you said, we're past the point of no return. DK, Sorc, and WW can all do this, so 8-9k dps with endless sustain is apparently their model for now. I would wager that if you tune more offensively, you can outmaneuver and outrace their dps, especially on Sorc at your skill level.

If we don't want to see 8-9k dps with infinite sustain, then we don't want to nerf classes, we want to nerf all the underlying inflated stats and busted sets enabling these extremes. Definitely agree that Pyre shouldn't proc Wildfire, and I don't think Pyre should proc from range either.

Sorc can’t do 8-9k DPS to a good player. I have spent 3 days on PTS dueling DoT Sorcs and none of my CMX has shown anything higher than 6.5k.

But regardless, that is not the point. The point is DK with class masteries is leagues beyond other classes right now, and given how tiring DK meta has been for the past 3 months, it is only going to get worse.

hoangdz · April 19

Some of the most no-brain PvP I've ever experienced. Pyrebrand and Recursive Flame doing 2.5k free DPS with practically zero rotation complexity. This kind of PvP needs to be deleted off the game.

Like, why is Pyrebrand proccing twice and doing 6k burst for light attacking? I'm in 3 def CPs with 10% extra unnamed mitigation, Major Minor Protection, 4.3k crit resist, 34k spell resist, 43k HP. I'm a straight tank and this dude is doing this kind of damage. Actually dumb

xylena · April 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Sorc can’t do 8-9k DPS to a good player. I have spent 3 days on PTS dueling DoT Sorcs and none of my CMX has shown anything higher than 6.5k.

I posted replicable evidence of myself doing 8k+ 8sec kills on StamSorc to a competent (but not top 0.1%) meta 40k WW player. What do you think this means for open world?

A lot more to me than extended duels against tank builds, which don't matter to me any more than a PvE dummy parse, because that doesn't really happen in normal open world play.

But regardless, that is not the point. Just take the win that I agree with you on Pyre/Wildfire being broken. Forget balance, this is a BUG that a proc is proccing another proc.

hoangdz · April 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Sorc can’t do 8-9k DPS to a good player. I have spent 3 days on PTS dueling DoT Sorcs and none of my CMX has shown anything higher than 6.5k.

I posted replicable evidence of myself doing 8k+ 8sec kills on StamSorc to a competent (but not top 0.1%) meta 40k WW player. What do you think this means for open world?

A lot more to me than extended duels against tank builds, which don't matter to me any more than a PvE dummy parse, because that doesn't really happen in normal open world play.

But regardless, that is not the point. Just take the win that I agree with you on Pyre/Wildfire being broken. Forget balance, this is a BUG that a proc is proccing another proc.

You had 1 screenshot of an 8k DPS duel that lasted 8 seconds. A sustained DPS of that screenshot would've been around 6k, which is the value I said in another comment. I've also dueled 5 different pressure Sorcs on PTS, and only one of them did 8k DPS, but it was a straight parse with both of us standing still and me using all healing abilities. In a normal duel against the same player, he did around 6.1k DPS as expected.

Yes, at least we can agree on Pyre/Wildfire needing adjustments.

BattleAxe · April 20

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Sorc can’t do 8-9k DPS to a good player. I have spent 3 days on PTS dueling DoT Sorcs and none of my CMX has shown anything higher than 6.5k.

I posted replicable evidence of myself doing 8k+ 8sec kills on StamSorc to a competent (but not top 0.1%) meta 40k WW player. What do you think this means for open world?

A lot more to me than extended duels against tank builds, which don't matter to me any more than a PvE dummy parse, because that doesn't really happen in normal open world play.

But regardless, that is not the point. Just take the win that I agree with you on Pyre/Wildfire being broken. Forget balance, this is a BUG that a proc is proccing another proc.

You had 1 screenshot of an 8k DPS duel that lasted 8 seconds. A sustained DPS of that screenshot would've been around 6k, which is the value I said in another comment. I've also dueled 5 different pressure Sorcs on PTS, and only one of them did 8k DPS, but it was a straight parse with both of us standing still and me using all healing abilities. In a normal duel against the same player, he did around 6.1k DPS as expected.

Yes, at least we can agree on Pyre/Wildfire needing adjustments.

I’d say only adjustment it should get is how it functions for PvP. Don’t forget the other side pve. Devs have already shown they can balance pve and PvP separately.

Urzigurumash · April 20

How do things look if Battlespirit is doubled, or tripled, or more?

xylena · April 20

hoangdz wrote: »

I’d say only adjustment it should get is how it functions for PvP. Don’t forget the other side pve. Devs have already shown they can balance pve and PvP separately.

Pyre/Wildfire is a bug in either game mode. The devs have over and over explicitly stated that procs aren't supposed to proc other procs.

ItsNotLiving · April 20

Everyone else is throwing around 9k dps and Templar still isn’t allowed to do damage lol.

Decimus · April 20

There's many dueling builds on Live doing 6-7k DPS frequently over a stalemate duel - mostly bashcanists, DKs & sorcs.

On PTS Day 1 I was taking 7k DPS on torcplar: https://www.youtube.com/live/8h923QhKZrI?si=DqWGTaehg_Mt0Rpb&t=35988

What the OP needs to understand is that dueling CMX logs are a metric of your opponent's squishiness, your damage output and the strength of your/your opponent's heal over times.

I.e. if damage over time goes up (and we're talking about a pressure build) but so goes healing over time, you're back in square one.

DPS on its own is not an indicator of something being/not being broken, unless we're talking dummy parses where the dummy doesn't fight back or heal up.

BattleAxe · April 20

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’d say only adjustment it should get is how it functions for PvP. Don’t forget the other side pve. Devs have already shown they can balance pve and PvP separately.

Pyre/Wildfire is a bug in either game mode. The devs have over and over explicitly stated that procs aren't supposed to proc other procs.

According to wording on set it sounds like it’s not a bug and working as they essentially reworked it to.

xylena · April 20

BattleAxe wrote: »

According to wording on set it sounds like it’s not a bug and working as they essentially reworked it to.

Maybe that's why it's bugged. The game erroneously thinks that "Pyrebrand" is a class skill, not a proc effect, which are forbidden from triggering other proc effects.

Sorta related, I tested whether Sorc Static Reverb would proc off Inferno Staff Tri Focus dot. It correctly does NOT, neither does it proc off status effects, nor any proc sets I tested.

BattleAxe · April 21

xylena wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

According to wording on set it sounds like it’s not a bug and working as they essentially reworked it to.

Maybe that's why it's bugged. The game erroneously thinks that "Pyrebrand" is a class skill, not a proc effect, which are forbidden from triggering other proc effects.

Sorta related, I tested whether Sorc Static Reverb would proc off Inferno Staff Tri Focus dot. It correctly does NOT, neither does it proc off status effects, nor any proc sets I tested.

From wording of Pyrebrand changes and what streamers have shown on pts Pyrebrand is suppose to interact with wildfire embers. Pyrebrand for all intents and purposes seems to be as intended. Now don’t quote me 100% cuz there is always chance for misunderstandings somewhere.

I guess to clarify since Pyrebrand doesn’t consume dots now and instead consumes up to 3 stacks of either wildfire embers or Pyrebrand dot itself