Don't nerf crit resist

Wup_sa · April 13

Do not nerf rallying cry until you have gutted crit dmg from pvp.

The set is being used, because it's the only option against crit dmg and it will remain the only option, since it's still the best backbar set even with the nerfs.

Militan1404 · April 13

Yeah have no idea what they are thinking, rallying have been untouched for years and in the middle of the nastiest crit meta ever they decided to nerf it.

Wup_sa · April 13

Yea, if they made major force 10% and minor 5% like with berserks it wouldn't be such an issue. But taking away like 300 crit resist from a mandatory set isn't the right call

Lagzee · April 13

didnt see that. crit damage is out of control. Its not even hard to get crit damage cap on any assassination build with monomyth. this is a massive mistake. the 2 piece will now give crit resist, but it doesnt say how much. Unless its like 600 this is a mistake. Nerfing this by any amount is silly. you can have 4k crit resist and still get hit with like 12k bows.

in fact, instead of nerfing this you should be adding crit resist to more sets.

Wup_sa · April 13

Lagzee wrote: »

didnt see that. crit damage is out of control. Its not even hard to get crit damage cap on any assassination build with monomyth. this is a massive mistake. the 2 piece will now give crit resist, but it doesnt say how much. Unless its like 600 this is a mistake. Nerfing this by any amount is silly. you can have 4k crit resist and still get hit with like 12k bows.

in fact, instead of nerfing this you should be adding crit resist to more sets.

It would be a buff if it gave over 600, since you trade crit chance for dmg, but on pts its 424 crit resist on the 2 piece (golded).

Lagzee · April 13

Wup_sa wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

didnt see that. crit damage is out of control. Its not even hard to get crit damage cap on any assassination build with monomyth. this is a massive mistake. the 2 piece will now give crit resist, but it doesnt say how much. Unless its like 600 this is a mistake. Nerfing this by any amount is silly. you can have 4k crit resist and still get hit with like 12k bows.

in fact, instead of nerfing this you should be adding crit resist to more sets.

It would be a buff if it gave over 600, since you trade crit chance for dmg, but on pts its 424 crit resist on the 2 piece (golded).

ya so like a 250 nerf. i havent been on the pts and the patch notes didnt list the number. I was being sarcastic saying they should buff the set. its not that they should buff it, its that they need to nerf crit damage a bit in pvp. and they deff shouldnt be nerfing sets that combat crit damage.

CannedChicken · April 14

They need to fix mechanical acuity while they are nerfing crit resist sets.. That set is extremely overpowered in pvp.

RedMamba · April 14

Rallying cry nerf was not a enough to make a difference or stop it from being the back bar meta in Cyro. Take away the 300 weapon damage or bring it down to 150.

RisKKR · April 15

The issue is the set is overloaded on different stats and can be 1 barred. It gives, as you say, critical survival... yet also 300 WD/SD on top of it and even some crit chance for nice back bar heals. Many people literally run it as a DPS buffing set in PvP, paired with something like wretched vitality (the meta mag sorc build right now).

So I think they should've gut the 300 SD/WD instead. Make it 100 SD/WD. The set has no business being this well rounded in everything AND being 1 barred.

YandereGirlfriend · April 15

RisKKR wrote: »

The issue is the set is overloaded on different stats and can be 1 barred. It gives, as you say, critical survival... yet also 300 WD/SD on top of it and even some crit chance for nice back bar heals. Many people literally run it as a DPS buffing set in PvP, paired with something like wretched vitality (the meta mag sorc build right now).

So I think they should've gut the 300 SD/WD instead. Make it 100 SD/WD. The set has no business being this well rounded in everything AND being 1 barred.

I would pretty strongly disagree.

More sets should be like Rallying not fewer.

Rallying only stands out because 95% of ESO sets are unusable deconstruction fodder unfit for any context.

Sets should be exciting not make you say, "Eh, this is the least-trash option so I guess I'll use it".

Wuuffyy · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

The issue is the set is overloaded on different stats and can be 1 barred. It gives, as you say, critical survival... yet also 300 WD/SD on top of it and even some crit chance for nice back bar heals. Many people literally run it as a DPS buffing set in PvP, paired with something like wretched vitality (the meta mag sorc build right now).

So I think they should've gut the 300 SD/WD instead. Make it 100 SD/WD. The set has no business being this well rounded in everything AND being 1 barred.

I would pretty strongly disagree.

More sets should be like Rallying not fewer.

Rallying only stands out because 95% of ESO sets are unusable deconstruction fodder unfit for any context.

Sets should be exciting not make you say, "Eh, this is the least-trash option so I guess I'll use it".

Haha, it's you again. If it helps I wholeheartedly agree that the vast majority of sets in ESO should be reworked AND we should not be nerfing the primo crit reduction set in a crit meta. But if you examine it closely it only lost a minor amount of self-potency albeit at the cost of one of your 2, 3, 4 bonuses.

Maybe their goal here was to reduce its effectiveness when grouping (which I honestly believe could have been handled in a better way) if so.

Jsmalls · April 15

Rallying cry has been overdue for a nerf since it came out. It combines the 5 piece bonus of Impregnable (1650 crit resist) and Julianos (300 spell damage) AND offers group buffs. It was too much in a single set.

Crit damage is a problem, but having a single set as a bandaid fix isn't a solution. Issue here is Nightblades are about to have their critical damage increased by another 25% at the same time...

Militan1404 · April 15

Jsmalls wrote: »

Rallying cry has been overdue for a nerf since it came out. It combines the 5 piece bonus of Impregnable (1650 crit resist) and Julianos (300 spell damage) AND offers group buffs. It was too much in a single set.

Crit damage is a problem, but having a single set as a bandaid fix isn't a solution. Issue here is Nightblades are about to have their critical damage increased by another 25% at the same time...

I agree that rallying is overdue a nerf and has been overpreforming, but so has crit damage and we are in a high crit meta, where its much easyer to get high crit dmg than crit resistance, and also dont have to sacrifice much, while with resistance you need to sacrifice armor trates and havealot less sources. The solution should be nerf minor and major force from 10 and 20 crit resistance to 5 and 10 crit resistance, Make a crit resistance mundus, and buff impenetrable to what it was before it got nerfed. They could also increase the base crit resistance, but this needs to be done carefully so crit resistance and crit dmg gets balanced and not make crit useless.

Dracane · April 15

To bring out the lore hammer for a moment, I must vote against 'making' a crit resistance Mundus Stone. We already invented a new Daedric Prince, and nothing needs to be said about that.

The Tower could be altered from granting stamina to granting crit resistance, because there is truly no reason anyone would possibly use this over Warrior.

Militan1404 · April 15

Dracane wrote: »

To bring out the lore hammer for a moment, I must vote against 'making' a crit resistance Mundus Stone. We already invented a new Daedric Prince, and nothing needs to be said about that.

The Tower could be altered from granting stamina to granting crit resistance, because there is truly no reason anyone would possibly use this over Warrior.

Whas thinking warrior could give both weapon and spell damage becouse of hybridization and the apprentice could crit resistance

Nebula_DooM · April 15

Crit Resist is hard to get, which imo is fine. You have to sacrifice an entire 5-piece set for crit resist; that's good combat design. But Critical Damage. Too much potency and access. Not to mention, Pure Wardens also have major brittle. At this point, just half all crit damage / healing sources with Battle Spirit. Mundus Stones should def get a change; they have been untouched for a while now.

Mechanical acuity should also be reworked. However, increasing the cooldown, or decreasing the time you have the buff won't work. we've already had it guarantee all attacks and healing to crit for 5 seconds with 18 second cooldown at one point, and it made ganking way too easy.

It should be something that guarantees the next x amount attacks as critical strikes. Something similar to Shadowy Disguise. Therefore, this change wouldn't reflect on your character sheet stats. And it keeps it purely for damage, and not for heals as well.

It wouldn't kill the set, but you need to be weary of what attacks you want to be a critical strike. IMO, 3 attacks is enough. But there are a few caveats with "3 attacks". Lets say for example, you light attack, use spammable, enchant procs. That's 3 attacks that crit in a single GCD. We change it to only castable abilities. Therefore that would be 3 GCDs and enough counterplay. Set cooldown should probably be reduced if this were to happen.

Jabbs_Giggity · April 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

The issue is the set is overloaded on different stats and can be 1 barred. It gives, as you say, critical survival... yet also 300 WD/SD on top of it and even some crit chance for nice back bar heals. Many people literally run it as a DPS buffing set in PvP, paired with something like wretched vitality (the meta mag sorc build right now).

So I think they should've gut the 300 SD/WD instead. Make it 100 SD/WD. The set has no business being this well rounded in everything AND being 1 barred.

I would pretty strongly disagree.

More sets should be like Rallying not fewer.

Rallying only stands out because 95% of ESO sets are unusable deconstruction fodder unfit for any context.

Sets should be exciting not make you say, "Eh, this is the least-trash option so I guess I'll use it".

Agree, Powerful Assault should have a look at too. It is basically RC without the extra buff. Maybe have this one also give crit chance in addition.

Dracane · April 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

To bring out the lore hammer for a moment, I must vote against 'making' a crit resistance Mundus Stone. We already invented a new Daedric Prince, and nothing needs to be said about that.

The Tower could be altered from granting stamina to granting crit resistance, because there is truly no reason anyone would possibly use this over Warrior.

Whas thinking warrior could give both weapon and spell damage becouse of hybridization and the apprentice could crit resistance

I think Critical Resistance might not fit the Apprentice thematically, but Warrior combining both weapon and spell damage makes a lot of sense.

Firstmep · April 16

Looking at the changed pvp sets it's clear they want to diversify the meta, which is why they made most of them resource agnostic. While not on the same level as pre nerf rally, there are some candidates like Farstrider and Wizards riposte(although it would likely have to be double barred) that could take up the mantle.
Imho I'd they increased the values on 2-4 crit resist values, they could likely achieve their goals, but the current pts values are too weak.

xylena · April 16

The RC nerf was pretty good to push it as a solo set and take it away from comp groups. The excess crit damage problem isn't going to be solved by more bandaid sets, they need to start nerfing crit dmg sources in PvP and/or buffing innate crit resist.

MincMincMinc · April 16

Wup_sa wrote: »

Do not nerf rallying cry until you have gutted crit dmg from pvp.

The set is being used, because it's the only option against crit dmg and it will remain the only option, since it's still the best backbar set even with the nerfs.

So true, there is like 10x the number of sources of crit damage and only a handful of crit resist sources available.

If you look back before the impen changes most builds were at 50-60% crit damage. A crit build MAYBE if done right got up past 100% usually with alot of sacrifice for sustain or wd or resource pools etc. Now adays impen is in the gutter yet an average pvp build without trying is sitting at near 100% critdmg. Crit pvp builds are upwards of 180% achieving perfect crit damge against nearly any enemy regardless of crit resists.

Its as simple as crit damage has too many sources that are too strong vs crit resist which has too few and too weak sources. Its double dipping in inbalances making pvp far more RNG reliant >>> Which plays alot into "tank" metas previously. If people are uncertain they overtank. Which pushed everyone into the tank for 60s and then do one proc timed combo like acuity+onslaught+deep+merciless.

MincMincMinc · April 16

Oh the comedic aspect of this is that zos's intent of nerfing impen back in the day was to give people more options for traits instead of pvp only being 7impen............Funny enough now because impen is so garbage we have to supplement our builds by giving up an entire set bonus to have everyone in pvp run the same set now limiting our set options and variety.

Which the original impen change doesnt matter because crit damage is SOOOO prolific now that people are going back to running 7 impen anyway. So now we are not only stuck running impen, we are also stuck running a weaker rallyingcry......which means we are all probably going to get stuck slotting the crit resist CP to make up for it.

"Play how you want, so long as its the ONLY viable option"

Thumbless_Bot · April 16

xylena wrote: »

The RC nerf was pretty good to push it as a solo set and take it away from comp groups. The excess crit damage problem isn't going to be solved by more bandaid sets, they need to start nerfing crit dmg sources in PvP and/or buffing innate crit resist.

100% agree on this. Zos has a reactionary bulldoze forward mentality. They create a problem and then 'fix" it by introducing a set to 'counter' the problem. We can only wear two or three sets at a time plus a mythic. This doesnt work. It will never work. There are too many problems that zos has introduced to the game.

In this case the set existed before the oroblem was created but still applies.

The answer is to fix the root cause, not force players to crutch on a band aid.

MincMincMinc · April 16

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

The RC nerf was pretty good to push it as a solo set and take it away from comp groups. The excess crit damage problem isn't going to be solved by more bandaid sets, they need to start nerfing crit dmg sources in PvP and/or buffing innate crit resist.

100% agree on this. Zos has a reactionary bulldoze forward mentality. They create a problem and then 'fix" it by introducing a set to 'counter' the problem. We can only wear two or three sets at a time plus a mythic. This doesnt work. It will never work. There are too many problems that zos has introduced to the game.

In this case the set existed before the oroblem was created but still applies.

The answer is to fix the root cause, not force players to crutch on a band aid.

I'm more and more in the boat that zos should just give us a flat out 50% worth of crit resists in pvp. Even non crit focused builds are still around 70-90% crit damage. Which helps bring us back towards a point where we can question dropping impen or rallying.

There could also easily be major/minor crit resist bonuses added to the game. Or crit resist mundus. Or jewelry enchant. Or basically anywhere at this point.

Avran_Sylt · April 16

Why is everyone talking about critical damage like crits don't have RNG associated with them?

Thumbless_Bot · April 16

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Why is everyone talking about critical damage like crits don't have RNG associated with them?

We aren't. I don't really understand the point of your comment.

Militan1404 · April 16

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Why is everyone talking about critical damage like crits don't have RNG associated with them?

Not sure what you trying to say here? You struggle to get crits? Right now crit outperforms both pure dmg and and penetration even if RNG based, so that should speak for itself. Also we have mechanical acuity that kind of takes aways the RNG part of crit.

CannedChicken · April 16

So when is the mechanical acuity nerf?

MincMincMinc · April 16

Hard to consider it RNG based when most subclass builds are sitting at 50-60% critchance where the best spammable in the game does a GUARANTEED crit and the most used set gives you 100% critchance.

Cloak used to be ok to have crit tied to it, because either it was for initiation, or during combat you had to waste a gcd to guarantee a crit effectively making up for the lost gcd balancing itself out......now Surprise attack ignores that design.

You can average it out if you want like a 20% crit damage buff with 50% crit is basically equivalent to 10% damage done. However in pvp combat isnt about parsing most of the time which is why you should consider the worst case scenario......again considering players can EASILY force 100% crit scenarios granting you up to 125% damage bonus.

Wup_sa · April 16

CannedChicken wrote: »

So when is the mechanical acuity nerf?

That isn't really problematic, you can survive that very easily like corro, but crit dmg modifiers will apply to every ability including healing.

Avran_Sylt · April 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Why is everyone talking about critical damage like crits don't have RNG associated with them?

Not sure what you trying to say here? You struggle to get crits? Right now crit outperforms both pure dmg and and penetration even if RNG based, so that should speak for itself.

No, but it's not like I'm breezing through targets just because I've got 70% crit at range with a bow and am almost crit-capped.