A social issue people are reluctant to bring up

merevie · April 16

Most of us do our best to tolerate and understand toxic players and because of that we're really reluctant to 'out' people or report them -we know this game is an escape outlet for people and they need it. However, there are some communities where it is horrible to be due to perma banned players coming back on known new accounts and Zos turning a blind eye. And we're talking about seriously awful things behind those bans.

What this is resulting in is the victims of these people giving up on ESO and giving up on their friend communities.

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

Athory · April 16

Ask yourself: why does all this toxicity happen? What are the main reasons behind it?

It’s easy to point at "toxic players," but that’s only part of the story. A lot of this behavior is shaped and amplified by the systems around us. Right now, performance tracking tools like DPS sharing and logs are available everywhere, to everyone, in every type of content. And that design choice has consequences.

When DPS is constantly visible, it stops being a learning tool and becomes a social ranking system. Numbers get taken out of context, reduced to "good" or "bad," and used to judge people instantly. Instead of encouraging improvement, it creates pressure, anxiety, and comparison especially in casual environments where players are still learning.

That feeds directly into gatekeeping. Raid leaders, and even random group finder groups, start setting unofficial barriers like "hit X DPS or don’t join." But here’s the problem: group finder is supposed to bring together random players with different skill levels. Turning it into a performance filter completely defeats its purpose.

And this is where it really stops making sense: why do 12 random players who don’t know each other, have no coordination, and no shared expectations, have access to detailed logs and real-time DPS data in a simple pug run? In that environment, those tools have almost no constructive value. You’re not analyzing optimized rotations or coordinated strategies. More often than not, the data gets used to single people out, blame them for wipes, or make them the target of jokes.

Logs and DPS meters absolutely have a place, but that place is organized, high-end content. In coordinated groups, they help teams refine strategies, optimize performance, and push difficult achievements.

But in pugs?

They do the opposite.
They encourage snap judgments, reduce teamwork to a scoreboard, and create a culture where players are evaluated before they’re even given a chance to grow.
DPS sharing in pugs doesn’t teach.
It filters.
It pressures.
It excludes.

Honestly, these tools should be restricted. Logs and DPS visibility should only unlock after players complete high-end challenges like trifectas. At that level, players actively choose a performance-driven environment, and the data becomes meaningful. Before that point, it’s mostly noise and often harmful.

And this is where ZeniMax needs to step in
By allowing unrestricted DPS tracking in all content, ZOS created an environment where:

Judgment is easy
Exclusion is normalized
Mockery is effortless
Casual spaces feel hostile

ZoS effectively handed players the tools to judge, exclude, and mock each other, even in spaces that are supposed to be accessible and casual.

If the goal is a healthier community, the solution isn’t just punishing bad actors. It’s rethinking the systems that enable that behavior in the first place.
Because if everything revolves around numbers from the very start, the community will naturally become less patient, less welcoming, and more toxic. Maybe it’s time to shift the focus away from constant measurement — and back toward learning, cooperation, and actually enjoying the game.

Angnos · April 16

Can people who start a forum post add a bit more context about the things they’re complaining about? OP is talking about toxic people, but what did they actually do? Someone above mentioned people being toxic about DPS numbers, etc. I could reply about toxic casuals or the toxic positivity that runs rampant in this game, but I’m not sure if that’s what OP wants to discuss.

For the person above: It really depends on what kind of groups you’re in. My guild and prog group use a DPS share tracker to have a bit of friendly competition over who can deal the most damage during boss fights. But there’s no naming or shaming. We also use logs to see which buffs we’re lacking and to check uptime. PUGs are the wild west, so it’s best to find a guild that suits your playstyle and join their trials and dungeons.

tsaescishoeshiner · April 16

Why are we talking about DPS in a thread about permanent bans for toxicity? Are players making new accounts to target and flame low-DPS characters or something? I highly doubt that.

Silaf · April 16

There is no social issue people are reluctant to bring up. Complaining is one of the favorite sports around.

Athory · April 16

"Ask yourself: why does all this toxicity happen? What are the main reasons behind it?'
It’s easy to point at "toxic players," but that’s only part of the story....

SerafinaWaterstar · April 16

@Athory

I agree. These logs should only be shared by choice. Using them to make people feel bad is not how they should be used.

But the other issue is the ego of raid leads. Luckily I’ve found ones that are lovely & encouraging. Makes a whole world of difference.

(And do occasionally lead myself, so know not to judge on dps alone)

As for toxicity in other areas of the game, the issue is to keep reporting it. But make sure it is genuine toxicity, not just someone expressing an opinion you don’t like.

I also think there needs to be more tolerance & understanding as this is a game played by people all over the world, but uses English as the main language of communication. Sometimes things can get lost in translation.
(I have basic Spanish but if I had to play the game in Spanish I’d be doomed!)

xylena · April 16

Athory wrote: »

A lot of this behavior is shaped and amplified by the systems around us. Right now, performance tracking tools

99% chance that OP is referring to a PvP issue. She's not wrong. There's a handful of players that keep coming back from bans to personally harrass the same people.

Reginald_leBlem · April 16

I am about 99.9% sure that the toxicity OP is talking about has nothing to do with dps measuring addons and everything to do with people rightfully getting banned after making openly racist/bigoted remarks up to and including open death threats.

These things aren't common, but they do happen, people get reported, banned, and sometimes they vanish forever and sometimes show up with a new name on an account they purchased and start gloating about their nonsense.

Athory · April 16

I believe that "player toxicity" in PvP and PvE is the same issue, and both fall under "player toxicity." I don’t play PvP at all, but I’m pretty sure the toxicity is the same whether it’s in PvP or PvE.

whitecrow · April 16

In 10 years of playing I have only encountered two people who were truly toxic.

Orbital78 · April 16

Athory wrote: »

I believe that "player toxicity" in PvP and PvE is the same issue, and both fall under "player toxicity." I don’t play PvP at all, but I’m pretty sure the toxicity is the same whether it’s in PvP or PvE.

Kind of but not really, pvp tends to thrive on rivalry and goading. Though I wouldn't always consider it toxic as far as harassment, it is just part of pvp. Teebagging and such, isn't sexual harassment or intended that way. People are just out of their element and don't understand or are overly sensitive. Pvp isn't for everyone, I can only do it casually.

Pve doesn't have the rivalry so much, at higher levels you're expected to perform your role well and be willing to adapt to mechanics, especially if explained.

We used to give a guildmate crap because he warn of Telarias deluge and then blew half the group up. If someone does this regularly and cannot do the mechs they are holding the group back.

Athory · April 16

But anyway, I truly love this part: “If someone does this regularly and can’t do the mechanics, they are holding the group back.” Lol.

So… how many levels of META are we talking about here?

If someone doesn’t know mechanics, it’s a problem because they’re holding the group back (Level 1 meta?)
If someone uses Oakensoul, it’s a problem because they’re holding the group back (Level 2 meta?)
If someone uses 2bars but only parses 100k, it’s a problem because they’re holding the group back (Level 3 meta?)
If someone uses 2bars but “only” parses 130k, it’s still a problem because they’re holding the group back (Level 4 meta?)
I genuinely love seeing people talk about others “holding the group back” like they’re part of some world-record team. Lol.

But anyway, let’s get back to the main point. Whether toxicity comes from PvP or PvE, what are the real reasons behind it?

Let’s focus on that: why do players become toxic?

If logs and DPS sharing are not the real reasons behind all the toxicity in the game, then what is? But please, give me a valid answer that doesn’t end up being related to logs or DPS sharing.

Bguk · April 16

Athory wrote: »

And then you kick him from the group,problem solved! Where’s the toxicity in that?

Yes.

What are looking for? The game to remove tools that people are using for both good and bad purposes? Any system can be gained and made toxic. You had stated earlier in this thread about DPS numbers. So those who use it for self improvement should not have the tools because others use it in ways you deem inappropriate? I wouldn't want that.

BXR_Lonestar · April 16

merevie wrote: »

Most of us do our best to tolerate and understand toxic players and because of that we're really reluctant to 'out' people or report them -we know this game is an escape outlet for people and they need it. However, there are some communities where it is horrible to be due to perma banned players coming back on known new accounts and Zos turning a blind eye. And we're talking about seriously awful things behind those bans.

What this is resulting in is the victims of these people giving up on ESO and giving up on their friend communities.

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

Well I don't know if this is coming from a PVP or PVE perspective, but I can say that if they made ALL PVP campaigns alliance locked (cyrodil, IC, vengeance), it would go a long way towards eliminating toxicity in PVP. Having non-alliance locked campaign enables MUCH of the toxic behavior in PVP, from switching alliances to give the hammer/scroll to your primary opponent that campaign, to slipping into the other alliance's zone chat to talk trash or whine. Its ALL possible only because alliance campaigns are not locked. And it could be easily fixed and curbed if players were forced to stick to only one alliance for the duration of the campaign.

You can never eliminate the toxicity, but you CAN curb it, and if you curb it here, it is less likely to spill over into other phases in the game.

twisttop138 · April 16

If you feel you will be judged for your dps, don't play with those people. They probably are not the kind of people you wanna play with anyway if you're worried about stuff like this. DPS logs are just tools. If you join a guild that has requirements you don't like, leave. When you see a guild advertisement that peaks your interest, whisper the person and ask questions. See if it's really a correct fit for you. People can only gatekeep you if you let them.

Athory · April 16

Bguk wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

And then you kick him from the group,problem solved! Where’s the toxicity in that?

Yes.

What are looking for? The game to remove tools that people are using for both good and bad purposes? Any system can be gained and made toxic. You had stated earlier in this thread about DPS numbers. So those who use it for self improvement should not have the tools because others use it in ways you deem inappropriate? I wouldn't want that.

Final Fantasy XIV

addons are restricted or banned
No DPS Sharing
does NOT have built-in combat logs like ESO
and players still clear all content

The irony in ESO is wild.

We’re not allowed to post a simple game screenshot on the forums if it shows another player’s name, all to avoid shaming and protect the CoC.
But in‑game, ZOS gives players every tool needed to create the exact shaming and gatekeeping they claim to prevent.

And all of toxicity grows, spreads, and gets reinforced by the very systems ESO provides.

Orbital78 · April 16

Athory wrote: »

Bguk wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

And then you kick him from the group,problem solved! Where’s the toxicity in that?

Yes.

What are looking for? The game to remove tools that people are using for both good and bad purposes? Any system can be gained and made toxic. You had stated earlier in this thread about DPS numbers. So those who use it for self improvement should not have the tools because others use it in ways you deem inappropriate? I wouldn't want that.

Final Fantasy XIV
addons are restricted or banned

No DPS Sharing

does NOT have built-in combat logs like ESO

and players still clear all content

I don't think dps sharing or addons are the issue, mayhaps FF just has better balancing? I wasn't into FF's graphic style, so I never tried it. Is the content overall easier?

TBH I've haven't had many issues in PVE with toxicity unless you're trying to get into the hardest of hard mode content that is balanced around an niche group. I've been kicked from groups a few times over the past 8+ years. I just make note of who and why they were added to my ignore list and just avoid them in the future. I don't do a lot of pug trials though, I have guilds for that. I used to do a ton of random dungeons though.

Athory · April 16

Orbital78 wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

Bguk wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

And then you kick him from the group,problem solved! Where’s the toxicity in that?

Yes.

What are looking for? The game to remove tools that people are using for both good and bad purposes? Any system can be gained and made toxic. You had stated earlier in this thread about DPS numbers. So those who use it for self improvement should not have the tools because others use it in ways you deem inappropriate? I wouldn't want that.

Final Fantasy XIV
addons are restricted or banned

No DPS Sharing

does NOT have built-in combat logs like ESO

and players still clear all content

I don't think dps sharing or addons are the issue, mayhaps FF just has better balancing? I wasn't into FF's graphic style, so I never tried it. Is the content overall easier?

TBH I've haven't had many issues in PVE with toxicity unless you're trying to get into the hardest of hard mode content that is balanced around an niche group. I've been kicked from groups a few times over the past 8+ years. I just make note of who and why they were added to my ignore list and just avoid them in the future. I don't do a lot of pug trials though, I have guilds for that. I used to do a ton of random dungeons though.

Why do they kick you? They need someone with more DPS? More experience? All good, no toxicity at all. (Logs+DPS sharing)
Why don’t you play PUGs?
Why do you only play in guilds?

If your answer isn’t ultimately related to DPS sharing or logs, then please, tell me why.

EDIT:
And since this topic could end very badly with a ban hammer, I’ll only reply again if I see a valid reason why logs or DPS sharing are not related to toxicity.

Bguk · April 16

Athory wrote: »

Bguk wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

And then you kick him from the group,problem solved! Where’s the toxicity in that?

Yes.

What are looking for? The game to remove tools that people are using for both good and bad purposes? Any system can be gained and made toxic. You had stated earlier in this thread about DPS numbers. So those who use it for self improvement should not have the tools because others use it in ways you deem inappropriate? I wouldn't want that.

Final Fantasy XIV
addons are restricted or banned

No DPS Sharing

does NOT have built-in combat logs like ESO

and players still clear all content

The irony in ESO is wild.
We’re not allowed to post a simple game screenshot on the forums if it shows another player’s name, all to avoid shaming and protect the CoC.

But in‑game, ZOS gives players every tool needed to create the exact shaming and gatekeeping they claim to prevent.

And all of toxicity grows, spreads, and gets reinforced by the very systems ESO provides.

So I take it as a Yes, you want certain DPS addons banned? I'm not looking for a complaint session, I'm looking for what you deem as a solution.

coop500 · April 16

What a fascinating thread.

Orbital78 · April 16

Athory wrote: »

Why do they kick you? They need someone with more DPS? More experience? All good, no toxicity at all. (Logs+DPS sharing)
Why don’t you play PUGs?
Why do you only play in guilds?

If your answer isn’t ultimately related to DPS sharing or logs, then please, tell me why.

EDIT:
And since this topic could end very badly with a ban hammer, I’ll only reply again if I see a valid reason why logs or DPS sharing are not related to toxicity.

Why? I don't even know, it doesn't happen very often. If it is at the start of the dungeon, I don't even care. If we have made it over half way or to the last boss and they kick to invite a friend then I take offense. I'm not the best player but I have cleared most dungeon hard modes now.

I don't pug because at 12man level it requires good leadership and organization at veteran level most of the time. I also want to communicate via voice chat and not keyboard. To be honest I do pug, just not often. I have done trials with Aedra and For the Clear. I actually joined FtC because they felt a little more comfortable I guess is a way to put it. Though even some of their raid leaders have high requirements, and that is their right as I don't want to lead. I have joined some group finder runs, but they tend to be "bait" or high chances of getting stuck on the last boss or what not. CP level alone is not an indicator of how well a player knows their role/class. It is rarer, but I have actually made some pleasant friends or acquaintances via group finder and stopped using it and just use their discords now.

I enjoy doing runs as a guild because I have social connections with these people or want to work on getting them (if I'm new). They tend to have voice chat and comradery, if you're progging a trial, at least you are helping someone gear up that you will hopefully keep working with in the future to gain more clears, experience, and fun. Most of my guilds don't really have requirements, or if they do, you should easily be able to meet them if you try to put together a build, upgrade sets, and apply enchantments. If you don't have those, most of them have areas to help you get setup with those things.

Most of my guilds only use logs as an option and a TOOL to help yourself get better. I log many of the trial runs, I look at who is doing the best and trying to see how I can improve. I find it very helpful for considering new build options. I do not run Hodor's anymore, as a dps I don't feel I need it. Logs are enough to tell me a general idea of where I am at with my build, what I am dying to, and what I need to do better.

Athory · April 16

Solution? What solution are we talking about?

If toxicity in the game and the root cause are Lof and DPS Sharing or other functions, then yes. ZoS should change them.

For example: could these tools be limited only to players doing high-end content, like trifecta runs or hard modes? Or could they be enabled only in specific activities such as HM trials and HM dungeons?
That could be one possible approach.

Kartalin · April 16

We regularly review logs in PVP (ball groups) so that we can make sure that things are occurring as we planned. And if they are not -- for example the person wearing spell power cure has horrible uptime on their hots -- we address that and talk about ways to fix it. We don't kick people out, we help them improve. If it continues to be a problem, then at least in my experience, it's more often the player stops signing up for raids rather than the guild removing them. People generally only get kicked out for toxicity in the form of being belligerent to other people in the raid, unwanted advances towards guild members, things like that.

For us at least, the logs are there to help us improve as a group, not for shaming someone for not doing their fair share. All we ask is a willingness to try to improve. And that is what I think ends up being the problem for some people, they see the suggestions being made as a personal attack and they shut down. Granted there absolutely are personal attacks being made in pve pug groups, but if you're in comms with your guild, regardless of pve or pvp, generally speaking there is no ill intent to any suggestions for improvement.

randconfig · April 16

Athory wrote: »

Ask yourself: why does all this toxicity happen? What are the main reasons behind it?

That's the first time I've seen a fellow gamer ask "why" people do what they do, rather than just condemning and passing judgement. Thank you. Without knowing "why", you can never truly address the cause, only apply bandaid solutions (suspensions or bans in this case).

Sadly though, irl factors are the primary cause of toxic behavior, which are largely outside of our individual control. If you struggle to meet your human needs (food, shelter, water, healthcare, having friendships, a safe environment, etc), you'll likely lash out over even the most minor inconvenience (like a small nerf to your class). Hopefully people will become more conscious of these inequalities in time, start to care more about one another, and then we can make the world a better place and ESO a better social experience.

tomfant · April 16

Logs and addons are not per se needed to evaluate someone's performance in group content. By just looking at positioning of the player in encounters, frequency of casts, skills casted, weapon types used, sets equipped, etc., you can tell wether someone fills his role in the group well or not.

There are some very obvious, yet quite frequently occurring things you'll see, a dd always standing behind the healer will likely die a lot. A healer always hugging the boss has also no idea what he's doing. A tank constantly repositioning the boss pulling it out of AoE for no reason, the dd spamming just light attacks with his bow while rarely casting skills, the one-bar HA player just holding down left mouse button and not using any of the 6 skills he has at his disposal.

Any half-decent raidlead will see way more than these very obvious things. Logs just add numbers to it, but won't provide any new or additional information to what you can get by just watching players. So, logs and dps sharing is not promoting toxicity. It just makes it a bit easier and faster to evaluate someone's performance.

CalamityCat · April 16

Honestly I kinda prefer when groups are obvious they have really high expectations, then I can avoid them and look for those who are more relaxed and aren't going to give me grief all the time. Having standards is fine, but being horrible to players who aren't "good enough" on the night isn't. Standards can be kept high without being vile. I have a guild mate who does trials at a really high level and has been exceptionally supportive and kind when I've needed advice about my DPS or healing. That is how the best players should all be.

In PvP I'm used to games with a lot more vile language than ESO, so I tend to shrug it off mostly because I know that some PvPers are crazy in the heat of a fight. But I've also had someone stalk and try to cause havoc for me in a previous game. That stuff is serious, but there are players in ESO who are well aware of this behaviour, and we will absolutely be there for anyone who needs support. I didn't end up reporting my creep, I had friends who reported him on forums and in game so I didn't need to. So please tell the people you play with if you haven't already, ESO has some incredibly supportive kind players.

allochthons · April 16

merevie wrote: »

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

How would you block a player instead of an account? I'm honestly asking. Via IP address? Via e-mail address? Via requiring face recognition or other identity confirmation?

Athory · April 16

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.

People want to show off their DPS.
They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.
Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?

Toxicity is out of control
It keeps getting worse
Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.
Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.

Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.
All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

Taarente · April 16

It's what happens when you have parse pissing contests and the belief that there's only one way. I don't experience it too often. I go where I please, do pvp, groups, trials, overland, whatever I like. It's not a pvp thing, its a "I'm a self opinionated tosser who delights in misery " thing, they are there in real life as well as in game. Best thing is report them, block them, or ignore them. This is your game as much as there's. They don't like it, too bad. If the best a player can do is make everyone else's life miserable then they have serious issues.

Casul · April 16

I prefer “toxic elitist” groups to be honest. Everyone is held to the same standard and must bring their A game. Nobody is getting carried and everyone pulls their own weight. Easy peasy.