Group sizes in Cyrodiil need a revisit

OnGodiDoDis · April 5

Group play is a critical, fun aspect of PvP, but it can be problematic if left unchecked. Group sizes were already adjusted before. They went from 24 to 12 players. This was necessary due to the introduction of sets and mechanics that have allowed individual players to wipe out large groups of people. So many sets and mechanics have been introduced since the group sizes dropped down to 12 people, so we are in deep need of another possible rework.

Why are large groups problematic? It isn't only the case that they can coordinate their attacks to create high burst potential. It also isn't only the case that they have unlimited DoTs. An important issue to consider is that groups make the game extremely unenjoyable for everyone on the receiving end of the stick. We can buff classes and skills as much as we want, but if regular players are faced with a large, coordinated group then they will always have a lower chance of winning. It does not matter how good we are. We will not win. This creates deep frustration among the casual community. Hardcore players should absolutely be able to enjoy the game as well. Everyone should. But we need to be able to coexist in harmony.

The only solution I see is to cut group sizes. By a lot. The reason for this is that no matter how small the group is, those people will always have an advantage over people that are not in groups. Groups have the advantage of real-time communication, which is why they can be extremely tanky and still be able to kill people with their low damage because they can time their damage accordingly and they can heal each other more efficiently. If we transitioned to smaller groups, they could keep their unlimited DoTs. Smaller groups are less intimidating for regular players to confront. This is where the game auto-balances itself. If regular players are getting abused by a small group, they could simply gather in numbers and overwhelm the small group. This is something that is NOT currently possible with 12-man groups. Current groups are more than capable of wiping out entire keeps. Simply outnumbering them does not work. They run around inside keeps, unable to be killed for unnecessarily long amounts of time, and they can stay there long after a keep has unflagged. They also hinder regular players from taking the initiative of starting groups of their own. Current large groups are elitist, to say the least, and they prevent regular players from even attempting to run a group due to the high demand in skill required to run one. Due to their large size, they also absorb much of the talent. After a group is solidified, we don't usually see those players grouping with other players. If groups were smaller, we could have more groups and therefore could increase the number of people that do group play. Large groups have become the most effective way to not only kill, but to stay alive. We need to make the solo aspect of PvP more in line with group play. We need to be able to kill players that are grouped up and we should not need half of our alliance to do so. We tried to cut group healing but reverted the change due to backlash from the large-group community. Surprise. They are not going to like any changes that will affect how they play. The vast majority of the PvP community plays either in small groups or solo. So, making changes that will tone down large groups will only benefit us all. Groups should be an asset to the larger player base, not the holy-grail of taking keeps. Let's not even talk about 12-man emperor or hammer groups.

Blackrim · April 7

So your solution is to destroy community by destabilizing group sizes because you cannot compete with them when it most certainly is possible to defeat then in a 1vX scenario?

Groups are the life blood of Cyrodiil and hold the game together. They make scores and success equal throughout the game.

Bombing and combo hits on enemy groups are easy ways to take them out along with siege. All it takes is one person to die in those big groups and they fall apart. They aren't going anywhere in multiplayer game. Battlegrounds 8 v 8 solo is a good alternative in my opinion for solo play if it bothers you that much.

OnGodiDoDis · April 7

Blackrim wrote: »

So your solution is to destroy community by destabilizing group sizes because you cannot compete with them when it most certainly is possible to defeat then in a 1vX scenario?

Groups are the life blood of Cyrodiil and hold the game together. They make scores and success equal throughout the game.

Bombing and combo hits on enemy groups are easy ways to take them out along with siege. All it takes is one person to die in those big groups and they fall apart. They aren't going anywhere in multiplayer game. Battlegrounds 8 v 8 solo is a good alternative in my opinion for solo play if it bothers you that much.

I think you ignored when I said that group play is critical to the game and that grouped players should absolutely be able to enjoy the game. Please point out how reducing group sizes will destroy community. Having smaller groups will result in more groups and less intense entry-level requirements to join them, therefore resulting in more regular players ending up in groups. It would only open the door to casual players which make up the majority of the PvP community. Tell me what part of this sounds like a destroyed community to you.
And no, if killing Ball Groups were so easy I would not have written this post. This is not a skill issue. The large number of players in Ball Groups allows them to have sets for almost every scenario. They have access to more sets, including sets that generate group ultimate. Cutting down on group sizes will limit the amount of utility Ball Groups have and make PvP more balance and, most importantly, more enjoyable for everyone. Except for the same 12 people on every alliance that are always on Ball Groups 24/7.
You say "all it takes is one person to die". As if it were so easy when every one in those groups has like 5 HoTs on them and permanent Barriers. Like I said, this is not a skill issue.

Oblivion_Protocol · April 8

That’s not how things work. Actual groups are, with the exception of a few effects, mostly a formality. You could break a ball group into three separate but organized four-man groups and have the exact same problem you’ve always had because they can still coordinate over Discord.

Hell, most three- and four-man groups can take out a moderately-sized zerg by themselves. All further reducing group size would do is make it harder for new players to find groups that’ll be able to tell them where to go and what to do.

You mentioned that reducing group size means there will be more groups. It doesn’t, because it won’t be more players actively making and running groups. It just means the players that are running them will just have smaller groups, except for the ball groups, of course.

Attorneyatlawl · April 8

If anything, it should be reverted to 24 person max group size. People were more willing to allow others into their premades and have you hop on voice with them. It also was better for pugs, as they could get a bigger group to stay together better and chat.

Ostonoha · April 8

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Group play is a critical, fun aspect of PvP, but it can be problematic if left unchecked. Group sizes were already adjusted before. They went from 24 to 12 players. This was necessary due to the introduction of sets and mechanics that have allowed individual players to wipe out large groups of people. So many sets and mechanics have been introduced since the group sizes dropped down to 12 people, so we are in deep need of another possible rework.

Why are large groups problematic? It isn't only the case that they can coordinate their attacks to create high burst potential. It also isn't only the case that they have unlimited DoTs. An important issue to consider is that groups make the game extremely unenjoyable for everyone on the receiving end of the stick. We can buff classes and skills as much as we want, but if regular players are faced with a large, coordinated group then they will always have a lower chance of winning. It does not matter how good we are. We will not win. This creates deep frustration among the casual community. Hardcore players should absolutely be able to enjoy the game as well. Everyone should. But we need to be able to coexist in harmony.

The only solution I see is to cut group sizes. By a lot. The reason for this is that no matter how small the group is, those people will always have an advantage over people that are not in groups. Groups have the advantage of real-time communication, which is why they can be extremely tanky and still be able to kill people with their low damage because they can time their damage accordingly and they can heal each other more efficiently. If we transitioned to smaller groups, they could keep their unlimited DoTs. Smaller groups are less intimidating for regular players to confront. This is where the game auto-balances itself. If regular players are getting abused by a small group, they could simply gather in numbers and overwhelm the small group. This is something that is NOT currently possible with 12-man groups. Current groups are more than capable of wiping out entire keeps. Simply outnumbering them does not work. They run around inside keeps, unable to be killed for unnecessarily long amounts of time, and they can stay there long after a keep has unflagged. They also hinder regular players from taking the initiative of starting groups of their own. Current large groups are elitist, to say the least, and they prevent regular players from even attempting to run a group due to the high demand in skill required to run one. Due to their large size, they also absorb much of the talent. After a group is solidified, we don't usually see those players grouping with other players. If groups were smaller, we could have more groups and therefore could increase the number of people that do group play. Large groups have become the most effective way to not only kill, but to stay alive. We need to make the solo aspect of PvP more in line with group play. We need to be able to kill players that are grouped up and we should not need half of our alliance to do so. We tried to cut group healing but reverted the change due to backlash from the large-group community. Surprise. They are not going to like any changes that will affect how they play. The vast majority of the PvP community plays either in small groups or solo. So, making changes that will tone down large groups will only benefit us all. Groups should be an asset to the larger player base, not the holy-grail of taking keeps. Let's not even talk about 12-man emperor or hammer groups.

Interesting that you want groups sizes shrunk in size meanwhile 24 man groups allowed for pug wranglers to better coordinated the factions to push/defend keeps.

Is this an anti-ball group post or is this just against coordination in general? Because I do not think shrinking these groups are going to matter for the most part with the larger guilds who run 30+ in discord but would hurt most 12 man ball groups. Based on the comments you made I have to say most of this seems like frustration towards the 30+ man zerg guilds and not the ball groups.

At least on PCNA I can think of multiple ball group guilds per faction that are willing to run new players without any sort of ego. I don't think you are alone in this line of thinking, But I think this is more of the "solo" player projection that happens where they just assume the people in ball groups are just authoritarian jerks who think they are the best. Many groups have "training" night where they take people to work on stuff. Yea sure there are 1-2 guilds per faction that refuse to allow outsiders but that is to be expected. Most of these guilds currently seem to be bleeding members and most groups are a mix of different guilds combing to form 1 group, or even people playing on 2nd accounts for cross faction. So to say they do not play with others would be wrong.

I do not agree that the game needs to allow for equal ability for solo and group play. One thing I have never understood about the ESO community (and I have been here since beta) is the angst it has for grouping. Its an MMO Afterall.

Necrotech_Master · April 9

if anything group size in cyro needs to be increased (along with pop caps)

even if you disallowed ALL grouping in cyro, coordinated groups of players would always exist because they can still use voice comms through external applications to coordinate what they are doing, changing their grouped status wouldnt really do anything to stop them

msgeek · April 9

I respectfully disagree.

I quit the PVP side of the game with the release of Markarth specifically because of the group size nerf.

I used to host groups in PVP guilds daily.

This is how it would work:
Fill group with 12x reliable / capable players.
Fill the remaining group with new/learning players who were being "trained" up in how to play cyro.

That allowed a continuous progression of new people > capable people so that you'd always have enough people to hit and obtain objectives.

When the group size dropped to 12, as soon as you wanted to be able to accomplish any meaningful goal you could only fill groups with capable players. It became impossible to train new players in PVP.

If all the cyro testing has had _any_ purpose that purpose should be to return the group size to 24. If you're having problems dealing with groups you need to counter with groups. It's meant to be a co-op campaign. Its meant to have large group vs large group. You want to solo? Go IC or stick to objectives that are possible solo, don't throw your toys out of the pram and prevent others from playing how _they_ want to play just because you can't 1v12 or 1v24.

Kickimanjaro · April 10

I appreciate all the perspectives shared in this thread and wanted to add a bit of context about the group size when it was reduced from 24 to 12. I was previously a much more casual PvP player and enjoyed playing with my guild group, which was usually about 10-16 people at a time, but sometimes a full group. We coordinated our damage, but it wasn't much more than just timing when to cast Sub Assault. It was effective and fun.

But when the group size got reduced, we had survivability issues. So, we had to start making decisions about what to have in group to survive so we could keep running around as we were used to... This led to us having to cut people. That sucked. It also made us better and more effective because we had to care about what we brought to the group. I enjoyed the theory-crafting of it and stuck around, and now I'm a ballgrouper instead of just a Cyrodiil zergling (though I am still that, too).

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

An important issue to consider is that groups make the game extremely unenjoyable for everyone on the receiving end of the stick. We can buff classes and skills as much as we want, but if regular players are faced with a large, coordinated group then they will always have a lower chance of winning. It does not matter how good we are. We will not win. This creates deep frustration among the casual community. Hardcore players should absolutely be able to enjoy the game as well. Everyone should. But we need to be able to coexist in harmony.

I earnestly want to find a way where a ballgroup can massacre a zerg and then be flattened by that same zerg and both sides have a good time. But I don't know how we get there. I think a good start would be for us to all get more experience with the other playstyle. In my time playing solo, I was frustrated by my inability to control the movement of ballgroups as I identify this as their primary survivability source. I proposed adding barricades to Cyrodiil, but it seems like this wasn't really a popular idea: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688222/suggestion-add-a-new-siege-type-to-cyrodiil-barricades

On a tangent: the groups I play with have been focusing on smaller sizes already, internally capping groups at some number below 12 (we have been trying to run 8 lately, but only been getting like 6-7 of our group), because we have found this more fun and because we acknowledge the ridiculousness of a fully-comped 12-man group on Cyrodiil. We find it easier to stay close together (within 8m for all those juicy short range scribing shields), and it's a fun challenge to min-max our gear from what we're used to from a 12 in half the size. I was really excited when I heard about the 8v8 battlegrounds because I thought it was a ZOS attempt to address the concerns raised by the community about ballgroups by allowing ballgroups to queue against each other in structured combat. But no, they wouldn't let us queue with more than 4 people so we couldn't build an 8-man comp so I never tried it again (not to mention 8v8 is not as fun as 8v8v8 would be, part of the variety of ESO/Cyrodiil is it's tri-faction nature) and had to go back to whispering other guild leaders in Cyrodiil and trying to arrange a fight out in the middle of nowhere...

I like taking Keeps; fighting in the courtyards, on the walls, and especially on that third floor... but if they made a Battleground thing where ballgroups could queue in with a full group and face each other, I think that could be really cool and I'd be interested in trying it out. Right now, the game seems to discriminate against groups in PvP, and this thread is proposing that we lean into that even further, but I'm not convinced that's the appropriate approach. I am even sympathetic to the consideration that the opposite could be true, that increasing the group size back to 24 could help combat the ballgroups. Caveat: if the ballgroups combine and bring out a 24-man ball, that would suck, but I think it's more likely that this would increase the effectiveness of the zone pick-up-groups and allow them to put up better resistance against an organized group.

Sorry for rambling, but I wanted to add that an implication of the group size reduction combined with the long queue times to enter Gray Host mean that our group usually has to be prepared like 2 hours before we start. This means we can't easily add people to the group once we're already going, which is probably why people think ballgroups are exclusive. It's just harder to recruit from zone if you need someone in a certain build, but we'd gladly share that build ahead of time with people who want to play with us. We get harassed in zone every time we try to recruit, though, so we've stopped trying for the most part.

Sluggy · April 11

Listen, they tried to address the issue by limiting the number of sets available in Cyrodiil and people hated it. Simply put, there is nothing they can do stat-wise that people aren't going to complain about so we're just going to have to sleep in the bed we've made.

And before I'm told I'm white knighting for them, yes - I am extremely critical of how they handled the limited sets thing. It basically was the worst possible implementation they could have chosen. But it doesn't change the fact that people hated it on a fundamental level based on principle alone. They like their busted sets. They like having hundreds of useless sets. They like the sleeper sets with bugs so extreme it makes 3rd party tools look like child's play. Everyone complains about balance issues but as soon as it affects them and takes away their power suddenly it's dumbing down the game.

At this point I think it's the community itself that is doing the most damage. Zos has drained away so much of the player base in Cyrodiil that all we have left are the caramelized remains of boiled frogs crusted to the bottom of the pan

LPapirius · April 11

They just need to bring back 24 man groups and make some cross healing limitations apply.