I actually didn't view that lorebook from Dreams as a meta critique of the feedback about ESO. But moreso a commentary on modern audiences in general. There's been a lot of artists complaining about having to perform and write for a second screen audience. And then channels like Cinemasins have shifted a lot of discourse about the quality of writing on things like looking for whether or not a story is realistic.


Characters will also get ripped apart for being unlikable, even when that's the point, and actors harassed. A good example of that is Skylar in Breaking Bad, who's actress received a lot of harassment for playing a wife that didn't want her husband doing illegal things. She was unlikeable at times as she was flawed and didn't always handle things well. But, that's kind of the point of the show. Now that the show is quite old, the discourse around her as shifted and she's generally much more well regarded because the only ones who still care about the show are the ones that engaged with at more than a surface level.

Or how people don't want to engage with the morally interesting trolley problem presented by The Last of Us but instead debate whether or not certain parts of the story could work IRL,having solely that inform the validity of the ending.

I think the concluding line is also a self deprecating joke at the pretentiousness to even complain about such a thing. It's been something I've seen actors and other artists discussing for a few years now. At least in the US. So, I think that they may have thought people would see it more generalized.

I'm not big into overland quests, but I found the quests with this event good and not overly arduous to do. Makes for a change and something different with an event.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it was more to make Dreams seem line some big shot director. But, I don't disagree it is confusing and the way you've read it is also valid. I just felt like sharing how I viewed it since I'm someone that likes listening to stuff like actor interviews about stuff. It reminded me of something I have seen several times the past couple of years.

If it's a misunderstanding - which I hope it is - it shows how risky it is to adress some real world topic completely unrelated to the game through ambiguous allusions that many people will not understand the way they were meant. I don't know which percentage of the playerbase lives outside North America, but considering that TES is a franchise popular worldwide, I'd expect a bigger percentage to live abroad, and therefore not necessarily to be familiar with what ever media discourse there currently is in the US. As well as current trends, memes, fads, etc. Of course it's all more globalized through the internet now, but are still lots of things that do not come up in media worldwide and that then will be interpreted differently, potentially in a negative way.

No matter where we players live, our common ground is Tamriel. Focusing on Tamriel in writing would make things comprehensible for everyone, without the danger of huge misunderstandings.

Malyore wrote: »

...But at the very least, looking into it might put their writing through a more considerate process for the future.

And that's where censorship begins...

It should be allowed to write and publish such, in my opinion harmless texts, in ESO Lorebooks. Everyone can interpret them for themselves or discuss them with others. Just because a handful of people feel personally addressed, one shouldn't censor the writing team.
I couldn't help but grin while reading it, because I agreed with the author. And honestly, I wasn't thinking about any forum members.

Being mindful to avoid a faux pas that alienates a part of the playerbase (no matter if it's lore people or other interests or playstyles) is no censorship, it's a normal part of commercial media publishing. Every player profits from that - a game can't survive if more and more people feel their participation and feedback is unwelcome, and leave. Too little revenue = servers go offline, plain and simple. It should be in the interest of everyone who loves this game to stop the playerbase from decreasing even more.

In this case it was very bad timing - releasing a lorebook where the fictional author disparages criticism about character writing quality and plot holes, when characters lately had been used for real-world statements before, and most of all, when writing quality had been a big and often addressed problem with the game the year before, that never received any acknowledgement.

People who might not have been part of the many, often detailed and knowledgeable, discussions, and might not have noticed the dwindling of the lore community over the years because they personally focus on a different aspect of the game (which is absolutely legit, everyone has different interests) might not have noticed the ongoing problem. But it exists, and because of that, that lorebook really comes across as a little tone-deaf.

I'm also quite sure there would have also been a negative reaction if they'd have a quest character, who's supposed to be an author of all things, call people who imagine themselves to be a hero in an epic story idiotic, or people who swoon for a fictional character in a novel deranged, or similar negative statements.

Disappointed to see there wasn't ever an acknowledgement from ZOS. Which means we are left to our own conclusions.

The improved communication at the start of the year was such a refreshing sight that it actually inspired me to resubscribe to ESO+ and want to play the game more.
But if it's all just to allow their writers to spit on their audiences, then there will be no reason for me to support this game at all.

@ZOS_JoBurba I hope your crew can have some maturity and act like professionals. If that hearts week lorebook was indeed the vented frustrations of ZOS writing staff directed at fans, then that is unacceptable to be allowed to exist in the game and probably even in company power.
If the lorebook was not meant to reflect ZOS' attitude, then there should have been more awareness in the current audience climate before allowing it to be published.

There is a difference between fantasy writing with complex negative themes which do not represent a writer's attitude and do match into the world building of Elder Scrolls; compared to writing with unwavering negative themes that match a common discourse which has surrounded ZOS for multiple recent years. The latter is easy to interpret as a form of hate that is endorsed by ZOS.

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Doesn't tricking the NPC in the 2nd quest require theft?

Yes, you need to steal a bottle of wine for that. So no option for absolutely non-criminal characters, sadly.

You can also pick up the knife on the table beside you, and use your own blood. In that case, no thieving or tricking is required, if I remember correctly.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I actually didn't view that lorebook from Dreams as a meta critique of the feedback about ESO. But moreso a commentary on modern audiences in general. There's been a lot of artists complaining about having to perform and write for a second screen audience. And then channels like Cinemasins have shifted a lot of discourse about the quality of writing on things like looking for whether or not a story is realistic.


Characters will also get ripped apart for being unlikable, even when that's the point, and actors harassed. A good example of that is Skylar in Breaking Bad, who's actress received a lot of harassment for playing a wife that didn't want her husband doing illegal things. She was unlikeable at times as she was flawed and didn't always handle things well. But, that's kind of the point of the show. Now that the show is quite old, the discourse around her as shifted and she's generally much more well regarded because the only ones who still care about the show are the ones that engaged with at more than a surface level.

Or how people don't want to engage with the morally interesting trolley problem presented by The Last of Us but instead debate whether or not certain parts of the story could work IRL,having solely that inform the validity of the ending.

I think the concluding line is also a self deprecating joke at the pretentiousness to even complain about such a thing. It's been something I've seen actors and other artists discussing for a few years now. At least in the US. So, I think that they may have thought people would see it more generalized.

Want to add this is about my take on it too. I can see how it can be taken otherwise but I also want to add that after you help her during the quest, Dreams says to the player character

"I do not know how you did it, stranger, but I stand here with muck on my face. I should not have been so hasty to judge you based on your vocation. I am one to talk, after all."

With that I read the lorebook more like you did with the context of an artist getting too wrapped up in criticism of their work to the point they have lost touch with their vision and what really matters with their work. I do dislike it falls into the recent writing trend of moralizing a little bit and I feel Dreams' portrayal in before and after quest things to be a bit simplified/dramatic. As you pointed out, there is a messy history between creators and their critics/fans. Fans can be wrong and creepy at their worst, creators can be manipulative and out of touch at their worst.

I think the quest had good intentions but tackled a complicated and messy issue with too much simplicity and it probably would have been better as a side quest down the line and not necessarily a quest related to a holiday about love. Maybe I'm biased because creative things are such a big part of my life but I did feel the Dreams parts of the quest overshadowed the love part of it (for better or worse? you decide).

I do lament that there can be cool and interesting stories related to creativity in games and this could have done that. Gonna use an example from a visual novel I play called Slay the Princess and their last major update. They added even more branching narratives to a story about branching narratives and loops, but one was different and stood out. It had an almost meta commentary on the nature of repetition in games, and how even something you love and enjoy can become old and tiring naturally with the reptition. That branch of the story gives a commentary on letting go, stepping aside, and walking away from creative things you love (be it temporarily or permanently) and being okay with that, or continuing in a spiral of burnout and exhaustion to try to bring back what you once enjoyed about it. I thought about the themes of that much more than just with STP but also how many hours I put into Skyrim or eso or other games and how sometimes stepping away for weeks or months or years and returning can make it feel good again but trying to stay and force it when it starts to feel stale can just feel awful. There are other examples but this was one of the first that came to mind for me for a really great commentary on creativity and the audience without insulting creators or the audience but also understanding the complex perspectives of both.

Syldras wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

We have been critisising the writing and lore mistakes for quite some time, Syldras

I know, but I'm still wondering whether it had already been in the original version of the current event or was added later.

But you're right, of course, it doesn't really make a difference. Publishing something that could be read, even accidentally, as mocking the playerbase should be avoided at all costs. It only does the game harm.

And that's the thing that bothers me most. I don't feel insulted someone could think of my messages as "mindless drivel". I know they aren't. And I know the messages of other people who have voiced their criticism weren't either. I've had many conversations about the topic of writing in this forum, I've read many interesting, smart, elaborate posts over the years that were worded in a polite, friendly way that showed insight and, most of all, care for this game. No one of us needs to be ashamed of the things they wrote. The problem I see is that alienating players won't help this game survive.

With the all unclarity and worries it causes, I'd hope we see an explanation. Or could get into a conversation about it.

I also agree with this though...on the dangers of it being misread. I love the lore a lot and am very passionate about it but I rarely talk about it outside of with close friends because I've been burned before by talking with people and having them be very mean or nasty or dogmatic about their own interpretations of the lore. I know this happens in every fandom but TES has a pretty bad problem with it in general. I do sometimes get discouraged and wonder what's the point in sharing my thoughts if they're just gonna be torn apart and mocked and I made a forum account years ago to give feedback but largely gave up until recently when ZOS recommitted to listening to people's feedback and making a game based on what people want. I know people who are more touchy on those fronts than I am and reading that lorebook could be discouraging to them and I don't want to see that either.

Part of the problem with eso writing in the past few years is it's both been too moralizing/handholding when player choice would have shone and also at the same time too vague and contextless when it could be read in ways that are not good or healthy for players or the lore. I don't know if they have them but I do really hope they consider alpha tester readers who can maybe give them feedback and see changes before it even gets to pts because between this questline and the Lamae Bal incident on the pts, I am very concerned that they need one...

Syldras wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

Part of the problem with eso writing in the past few years is it's both been too moralizing/handholding when player choice would have shone and also at the same time too vague and contextless when it could be read in ways that are not good or healthy for players or the lore.

I agree. Another thing that I personally find rather unfortunate is that lately, we get so much rather "generic" narrative content. As I wrote, one strong point of TES is its vast and diverse lore. We have a whole world (and planes beyond) full of different cultures with different beliefs, morals and traditions. So much can be made of this. Instead, there now seems to be a focus on simple, unspecific "messages": Protect the environment! Be nice to your sibling! And while these messages might be true, this is not very exciting, and not what I'd like to see when sitting down in front of my pc for a few hours to experience Tamriel.

I'm not saying these simple, universal messages can't come up in Tamriel. Of course they can. But I want to see what they mean for the different Tamrielic cultures! How does bonding or friendliness between orc siblings actually look like? Are there specific traditions or hobbies that orc youth pursues? Maybe there's even special celebrations or rituals about family bonds?

And if an Altmer tells me about the importance to protect the environment, I want to know what that means for this Altmer and why they think this. Are there philosophical or religious reasons? The thing is, a Bosmer, an Altmer and a Breton might all think it's important to handle a certain landscape with care - but if you'd ask them why they think this, from what I know about them through years of lore, they'd all give you a different explanation. And that makes this fictional world interesting.

In the end, writing that makes all of Tamriel's cultures feel like they think the same way, like the same things, have the same beliefs, the same morals, the same taste in art,... makes it all less diverse. It's basically turning a huge, varied world into a monoculture.

Exactly. I'm deeply obsessed over the Night Market because I feel very inspired by the lore and worldbuilding we've gotten with it and it feels far less generic than a lot of recent stuff. The mechanics in the zone and the npc dialogue and lorebooks feel like they are bouncing off eachother to make the world feel more alive and interesting and I often find myself wanting more and asking more questions about it and thinking about what it means for my characters' stories. I missed when eso's writing felt more like this normally and less on rare occasions and I really hope that both we see more of this kind of approach in the future.

Morality wise, it's never going to land with everyone or every character. I remember in Solstice being frustrated that you could not have more pushback against Meridia things in the plot. My main character/vestige has never forgiven Meridia for Summerset and holds a pretty strong grudge and the updates during the Solstice storyline did not make things magically better or her willing to forgive her. And I wouldn't even say my main is evil or villanous, she just has a reason to not like a certain daedric prince given past experiences. I have a friend who plays a very evil main character/vestige who often plays it like she's being a double/agent spy for selfish reasons but she has vented to me before she also doesn't like some of the dialog options or official motivations to do things. That's not even getting into subjective morality issues which you mentioned.

Funny enough, I originally made my bosmer spinner character based on the base game bosmer quests. I found the discussions of religion and morality very interesting there because Y'ffre's official tenants are very vague and open to interpretation, and in eso era Valenwood, it's obvious some bosmer are more conservative with it while others are just going through the motions or paying lip service to the Green Pact. I was somewhat sad they didn't at least somewhat explore the tensions between bosmer and altmer for conservation in Summerset because bosmer obsessively shaping their land to perfection could easily be seen as blasphemy by some more conservative Y'ffre worshippers. We know from in game stuff that bosmer prefer to collaborate with nature and ask for aid, where altmer seem to view conservation more as imposing their will on nature in some capacity for the greater good and seeing those tensions in game could have been rich for both story and lore mileage (and a reminder that AD and DC also have internal tensions similar to EP). Similar to you, I find things like that fascinating too and wish we had more of them. I also agree I would like to see more exploration of what different races and cultures in game do for religious or philosophical or practical reasons.

That was also my gripe with the chapter model post-summerset era. It felt like a lot of the chapters were a cultural deep dive into one or a few small handfuls of groups while everyone else became incredibly generic and out of focus. It felt like flavor of the month lore edition. I missed when the world felt more random in what content was releasing and had things like I mentioned above where lore could bump into things it normally might never touch and explore how these two very different things exist in the same world and how that can make the world strange, dangerous, and exciting.

I suppose we'll see more one way or another with the u50 quests and onward on if the Night Market was a happy accident or the writing is heading in better directions again. I want to be hopeful but similar to others who talk lore/story a lot here I relate to the sentiment of my headcanons and fan explorations are really carrying me through some of the writing.

Don't want to get too far off topic so I'll also add, it's not just an "it's an event quest thing either," because they added several new quests to the New Life festival that I greatly appreciated because they did highlight how different races celebrate New Life and even being repeatables they felt better written than most of the Heart's Day quests.

Emeratis wrote: »

Exactly. I'm deeply obsessed over the Night Market because I feel very inspired by the lore and worldbuilding we've gotten with it and it feels far less generic than a lot of recent stuff. The mechanics in the zone and the npc dialogue and lorebooks feel like they are bouncing off eachother to make the world feel more alive and interesting and I often find myself wanting more and asking more questions about it and thinking about what it means for my characters' stories. I missed when eso's writing felt more like this normally and less on rare occasions and I really hope that both we see more of this kind of approach in the future.

That sounds interesting! Well, I'll have a look in April (I think it was April when it will be released?), and if there's more focus on well-written TES lore again, I also hope that this will be the norm again, going forward.