spartaxoxo wrote: »

If someone left the game because they didn't like every single skill on a single class then they were never that into the game in the first place. I certainly don't think the game should be designed around people who so easily quit over loyal players that have played the game for 10-11 years. If this game gets utterly destroyed for me by the outright deletion of any skill line that I use with no respect shown to the people that use it, then that's an easy uninstall for me.

IDC if they change underused morphs or let them be one barred or whatever but the entire skill line being destroyed? Absolutely not.

I think it is extremely disrespectful to delete a core identity of any of the classes for no good reason at all. And no, subclassing made the meta too narrow is not a reason to delete pure class identity.

Excuse me? you want to talk about disrespectful when you are posting stuff such as this?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Excuse me? you want to talk about disrespectful when you are posting stuff such as this?

I didn't say there was a problem with others players feeling differently. I'm saying that I would personally feel zos has disrespected my time if the core character that I have played for about a decade were to be deleted from the game suddenly. A decade is a massive time investment from players. That's what I mean. People felt the same way about things like AWA and quit the game or scaled back how much they played. We all have the things that are core to our gameplay experience and my ability to play my sorc is one of mine.

I don't think that pets should be deleted, either, but I also agree with some here that nothing of value is truly lost if the existing Sorcerer pets were transferred to a hypothetical Conjuration line (which also featured popular classic Atronachs, etc.) in a future expansion of the magic system to make it more actually TES-like.

Obviously, that is pie-in-the-sky at present since there are no signs whatsoever that there are any plans for Conjuration, Alteration, Illusion, etc. to enter into the game as independent skill lines but if they did then I do not see how anyone could have much issue with that. In would, in my eyes, be a straight upgrade and expansion over what we have today.

Again, I ask, why not just update the pets to make them viable in endgame? They were once.

At this point, it's getting pretty obvious you want them moved because you just don't like them. And it's unfair because everyone who chose to use a sorc knew what the skill lines were. Sorcs using lightning and daedric summons are part of lore, so what you're asking is unusual on a number of levels.

BretonMage wrote: »

Again, I ask, why not just update the pets to make them viable in endgame? They were once.

At this point, it's getting pretty obvious you want them moved because you just don't like them. And it's unfair because everyone who chose to use a sorc knew what the skill lines were. Sorcs using lightning and daedric summons are part of lore, so what you're asking is unusual on a number of levels.

If you’ve read and kept up with this thread you’d see that both myself and others have cited fact based metrics for why the Sorc pets aren’t viable and are seeking them to be moved.

What you’re not considering is subclassing. You’re thinking about what Sorc used to be and in that scope there was potential, but not anymore.

Subclassing significantly affected not only power creep but what is mechanically effective now. That means it’s not just Sorc vs Warden or Sorc vs DK when we talk about comparative skills in PvP & PvE. In the past it wasn’t as relevant if a particular Sorc skill was as comparable to, say, a Necro skill, but it does now because in PvP mechanics matter a whole lot more and in PvE players are now expected to bring higher values into group latter game content .. all thanks to subclassing.

Sorc pets cannot compete in the varying different forms of latter game content that exist now, not just from a value standpoint but a mechanical standpoint and the data supports that .. not whether I like them, but data metrics.

If it were just a matter of “buffing” pets you’d see more experienced players suggesting that or you’d have seen it done long before now. This isn’t about buffing Pets it’s about the whole of how they function.

Why is it unfair to move them if the move will have no impact on current Sorcs who still want to use them?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If someone left the game because they didn't like every single skill on a single class then they were never that into the game in the first place. I certainly don't think the game should be designed around people who so easily quit over loyal players that have played the game for 10-11 years. If this game gets utterly destroyed for me by the outright deletion of any skill line that I use with no respect shown to the people that use it, then that's an easy uninstall for me.

IDC if they change underused morphs or let them be one barred or whatever but the entire skill line being destroyed? Absolutely not.

I think it is extremely disrespectful to delete a core identity of any of the classes for no good reason at all. And no, subclassing made the meta too narrow is not a reason to delete pure class identity.

The issue is we’ve cited data driven reasons why it makes sense for Sorc pets to be re-organized. And let me reiterate, I said REORGANIZE, not delete.

Again, nobody said take them out of the game, we’re saying take them out of the class but do so in a way that they’re still freely accessible to any Sorc who wants them.

I think it’s disrespectful for casual players who choose to only play select portions of the game content to tell other long term players who DO choose to engage in all forms of ESO content that a particular class is “just fine” because it works for them.

It doesn’t work for everyone, it works for you but not a very large group of people.

The difference between what we’re suggesting versus what you’re suggesting is that with our approach Pets would not only still be usable but could be expanded upon. But keeping Pets trapped under the Sorc class forces everyone else to live with a class that’s data-shown to underperform.

How is that not disrespectful? How is it ok to advocate that a large group of players have to remain restricted rather than a compromising suggestion that delivers more of what satisfies everyone?

Moving Pets wouldn’t hurt your build in the slightest but keeping the Pets where they are takes up key skill slots that many players need. It’s wrong to put players in a corner in the face of a perfectly reasonable solution just because anyone “thinks” that things are ok for them.

Your approach would completely delete over a decade of class identity from my character. My approach would just be to buff the sorcerer skill lines so everyone can play the pure class characters that they are already playing, reinforcing class identity that was stripped from the game by subclassing.

And I don't only do casual content. I've done all of the vet arenas, I have done some of the vet trials, and I do vet dungeons.

Well, to be blunt, if the issue at hand is how particular players feel about “identity” versus whether or not the class has EFFECTIVE skills then I’m willing to bet good money if you put a poll on this forum that “effective skills” would win by a landslide.

Yes, this would change Sorc class identity and based on a good amount of feedback from this very thread it seems like a lot of people are open to that and excited to explore that and I can’t say I blame them.

Although Necro lore & identity differ from Sorc ZoS absolutely have Necro priority when it comes to being a summoner class which diminished Sorc as the summoning skills and identity took a back seat to what was a paid-for-class.

Only two people in this thread are just using a generic suggestion of “buff pets” but there’s no insight as to how that might be successful. And that doesn’t surprise me either because in order to do that one would have to really take the time to delve into Sorc pets, mechanically, and nobody who is objective and fair would end up asking for them to stay.

Trying to buff Sorc pets isn’t going to magically restore a diminished Sorc identity, not after ZoS threw Sorc identity in the back seat years ago.

I don’t think it’s fair to ask a larger group of players to have to settle for lesser skill mechanics all to support feelings on identity. That’s asking a lot of the community and it would do a lot to ruin the class.

We’ve brought the receipts from multiple Vet dungeons .. set Trials aside for a moment; but even in Vet dungeons we’re not seeing strong Sorc pet use.

Many of us believe that the Class does need and deserve a more unique identity and skills that go along with it; and that’s reflected by a lot of comments provided here; comments provided by people whom we see contributing greatly across the ESO forums, names I recognize all over forum contributions who have years of incredible experience and knowledge with this game.

If the only rationale for keeping the pets is identity than, I’m sorry, a good number of us are going to vote to go in another direction. The identity might change but the opportunity to still use pets, in an expanded form would still stay.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Excuse me? you want to talk about disrespectful when you are posting stuff such as this?

I didn't say there was a problem with others players feeling differently. I'm saying that I would personally feel zos has disrespected my time if the core character that I have played for about a decade were to be deleted from the game suddenly. A decade is a massive time investment from players. That's what I mean. People felt the same way about things like AWA and quit the game or scaled back how much they played. We all have the things that are core to our gameplay experience and my ability to play my sorc is one of mine.

But in that exact same post, you specifically stated:

I certainly don't think the game should be designed around people who so easily quit over loyal players that have played the game for 10-11 years.

So what you're saying by this statement here is that these players who had played the game for it's entire lifespan up until their characters got gutted by ZOS forcing pets onto Sorcerer as the main focus of the class part way through this games lifespan are somehow lesser than you, and should just be ignored, just because they aren't playing the class the same way you do.

If that's the case, then how about those of us loyal Sorcerers that have stuck with the game for it's entire lifespan (10-11 years), despite the constant repeated gutting of our characters just to appease the few who only enjoy 2-3 skills from a single line and the constant subliminal messaging (by some at ZOS and the community) that we should just give up our characters and move on if we don't like how our characters have been deleted?

Maybe it's time ZOS listened and designed the game around us. We have stuck with this game through much more than some players who would quit the game just because 2 skills (not even an entire line) got moved (not deleted, MOVED) to a global skill line, and that maybe these other players that ZOS has been designing the class around for the past 5+ years weren't that loyal to the game in the first place if moving 2 skills to a globally accessible skill line that focuses and buffs those 2 skills and more was all it would take for them to quit.

@Turtle_Bot I’m all in agreement with you on this one. We need new Staff types, bring on the Conjuration Staff.

Let me summon weapons, armor, and Daedra to do my bidding no matter what Class Skill Lines I have chosen.

While we’re at it, what about an Alteration Staff?

Give me back my Destruction when using an Ice DESTRUCTION staff, and give the tank utility to the magic school that has Ironflesh. Ty Ty

(This would make a great OP, just saying.)

Malyore wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot I’m all in agreement with you on this one. We need new Staff types, bring on the Conjuration Staff.

Let me summon weapons, armor, and Daedra to do my bidding no matter what Class Skill Lines I have chosen.

While we’re at it, what about an Alteration Staff?

Give me back my Destruction when using an Ice DESTRUCTION staff, and give the tank utility to the magic school that has Ironflesh. Ty Ty

Actually yeah I'd love an alteration staff to be added to the game. Although I would rather it be part of a new "one-handed spell" setup for spellblades commonly seen in TES.

That would be wicked too!

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Where did you come up with that?

They have talked about balance being in an unacceptable position and one only need to look at ESO logs to see it's extremely overwhelmingly Herald of the Tome that's being subclassed into. They've also talked about mixing up the passives because some skill lines had clear delineation between the roles and those were overly favored.

The class refreshes are not just to make things more effective but also to reinforce class identity.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

So what you're saying by this statement here is that these players who had played the game for it's entire lifespan up until their characters got gutted by ZOS forcing pets onto Sorcerer as the main focus of the class part way through this games lifespan are somehow lesser than you, and should just be ignored, just because they aren't playing the class the same way you do.

No. I am saying that the game should be balanced around the people who play this game.

There's a false choice being presented that the game can have either Pets Sorcs or No-Pet Sorcs but not both. But that's not true. And the class refresh is literally their opportunity to rebalance the class to be more equitable. At the end of the day, I'm not the one suggesting a class identity to be deleted. It's not only a few people that like pet builds. It's one of the most popular accessibility builds in the game. You see all the time in towns. And you also see it when you look at what base class Sorcs are running in dungeons. Sorcs aren't the only pure class pushed out of trials.

I don't have a problem with Sorcs getting redesigned to make not using a pet more viable. It was that way in the past and it can be again. I do have a problem with the pet sorc having it's class identity destroyed. An additional separate skill line or additional grimoires, damage buffs for not using pets, underused morphs getting changed around, none of those things are things I take issue with.

The Devs have talked about balance for years, that’s true and that’s nothing new but if you look at their release specifically addressing the Class refresh it is in direct response to subclassing feedback. Yes, there is an identity factor as well, absolutely. How that identity evolves and manifests is open to creative interpretation. Just because Sorcs always have had pets doesn’t mean that’s the core of their identity or that it has to be.

The Devs own position on the Class refresh: “subclassing is currently stronger than pure classing by a large margin.” and that “ESO’s original class skill line designs were not built with subclassing in mind.”

The Devs directly admitted that ESO legacy skills weren’t designed with this mix of mechanics. I don’t think any of us expect pets to go away but even the Devs see the broad problems.

Here is precisely how the Devs described Sorcs in terms of their identity: Power source lies in Daedric PACTS (not pets) and Dark Magic … the Fantasy aspect lies in spell synergies and the use of forbidden powers.

That’s directly from the Devs when they announced their visions for each Class at the time.

Again, does that mean Pets have to disappear? No; nor do I think that they will. But the Devs already established a new identity for Sorc well before this thread was ever created and it doesn’t explicitly mention summoning or pets.

The Devs were clear on their scope of the Class refresh and it’s not to re-write or introduce new mechanics, which Sorc pets would need. It’s more about reorganizing skills, providing benefits for sticking with your primary class, decentralizing skills (so rather than a skill providing buffs plus damage they’re going to separate more utility versus output), and modernizing skills (which would include animation tweaks).

Nothing in there would cover the overhaul Sorc pets would need which is why moving them makes sense. From an identity standpoint the Devs already gave us their vision for the class identity and while it doesn’t specifically exclude pets it also doesn’t reference them either which means that pets aren’t a cornerstone of the Sorc identity, at least not anymore.

I will say, if they remove Daedric Summoning without moving it to a World Skill Line, I would be furious.

I know that the recent conversation has been about Summoning, but to be honest, the Sorcerer needs more actual damage abilities via basically whatever vector is available to add them.

If you compare the number of viable PvE damage abilities in the entire Sorcerer kit to the new (or even old...) Dragonknight kit it is like night and day. The class is very clearly held back by a crazy overabundance of utility and PvP pigeonholed skills.

Stormcalling is the poster child for this situation, where the nominal Shock Damage line, the only such line in the entire game, is instead forced to support two virtually damage-less utility skills, a PvP ultimate with nearly identical morphs, and the worst execute ability in the game, with no spammable or even a semi-spammable option in sight. So much for the "Lightning" class. Actual Shock Damage from this line is such a vestigial afterthought that it wounds the soul to be wasted on this class.

Dark Magic is somehow even worse, though, with only a single viable-ish damage ability to choose from and all the rest of the entire line shunted into the PvP and utility buckets. Deadric Mines and Rune Prison haven't seen serious use since like 2019 and are about as dead as morphs can get in this game. And along with Shadow, it is likely the most-neglected and ossified skill line in the entire game.

Which is another classic dilemma for Sorcerers. The good old "But it's good in PvP!" trap (which really means "Carried by two abilities") that somehow justifies everything else about it being relegated to second- or third-rate status. That said, I am pretty confident that the devs will get it largely right after witnessing their successful transformation of DK.

This thread makes me feel like a kid hearing their divorced parents fight over custody.

Except we are the parents, and the kid is a sorcerer.

Malyore wrote: »

An idea I had when scribing came into the game is having a grimoire that, with sorcerer class mastery and depending on the damage type focus script chosen, temporarily replaces your weapon with a summoned/conjured weapon for a few seconds. This weapon would benefit from any passives you have on the associated weapon skill line, as well as allow you to gain its resources from heavy attacks.

It could theoretically even be assigned a weapon skill from its associated line while it's active. You press the weapon conjuration button, you get the weapon for 4 seconds, and pressing the same conjuration button while it's active could let you perform a skill like wall of elements, snipe, etc. You would also have access to any other skills you have normally equipped for that weapon.

I’ve thought about that too … For example, summon a Daedric blade that applies a rune to the target with a disabling effect and has a scaled damage component. This would be really nice because it could act as a counter to melee attacks that close distance. We all know ranged staves are notoriously unresponsive in close quarters and while escape is one option, since subclassing is a thing, we have to consider that players can slot Toppling Charge and immediately give chase. So a Sorc being able to conjure a Daedric Blade would be an interesting approach.

BretonMage wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

[
See my previous comment. The Devs view for Sorc identity doesn’t rely on pets. That’s not the core of the power source or class fantasy and that’s from the Devs, not me. Their vision is a class that’s sourced by Daedric pacts (deals, not pets) and Dark Magic.

While pets may have been Sorc identity it doesn’t seem to be the focal point of the identity now, and again, that’s from the Devs.

Daedric pacts sounds like an umbrella term for a flexible approach to summoning which will open up the line to things I had previously mentioned, like expanding the types of summons. Not my favourite approach, but I wouldn't mind a daedric pact with Azura, I guess.

I would have preferred the focal point to be lightning magic, but we'll see what they come up with.

Sorc pets can be brought up to date how? Can you explain how, mechanically, the Sorc Pets targeting priority logic could be adjusted, within the scope of the existing game environment, to provide a more reliable and measurable output of AoE effect?

Can you explain how you would improve Sorc pets to better navigate environmental objects and AoEs to maintain a more consistent combat engagement?

Can you explain how you’d improve specific targeting inputs for Sorc Pets to better allow the caster to incorporate re-targeting to a specific target within a rapid rotation?

Just retarget the way you'd reposition Wall of Elements: cast it again, Daedric prey, in this case. You could suggest that one of the skills, like the scamp, or one of the morphs be replaced by a bound artifact skill which casts an AOE at a targeted location, or follows the player around and casts a beam of daedric energy at whomever they're targeting. The possibilities are endless.

I'm not the dev, though. As players we highlight pain points and they're the ones who are in the position to solve them. If something isn't working to your satisfaction, again, you could and should request specific morphs.

I feel like I've been repeating myself enough in advocating a more flexible approach to the line, whilst retaining elements that petsorcs are particularly attached to, like the Matriach. I don't know why you wouldn't be open to investigating viable solutions yourself which won't pull the rug out from under half of the sorcs, or force them to subclass.

I agree it’s a bit of an umbrella but what my big take away here is that they don’t mention pets OR summoning at all, in either the power source or fantasy. It makes one wonder when, in the minds of the developers, did Pets no longer become the cornerstone of Sorc identity? To not even have a mention is pretty telling for a class element that’s supposed to be so crucial.

Re-targeting takes multiple input commands; it’s not a single button press and in combat where timing is critical Sorc Pets need to be able to react lightning quick. If I need to refocus my target I need my pets to support my new focus and that’s not always reliable depending on the combat. This is where the AI can hinder potential.

I don’t know that morphing a Pet into a ground based AoE really support the idea of “pets” per se and Sors already have a slew of AoE skills as it is. If we were going to keep the pets the changes or morphs need to focus on the pet (beings) themselves. Morphing one into a ground based AoE only adds a nail into their coffin, IMO

I like the Scamp idea, it’s an Improvement over what we have but that would require big re-writes to the Sorc pets themselves. Currently the Sorc pets don’t mechanically operate in a way close to that and, again, where are we getting the idea that the Devs are doing that kind of work? That’s not a refresh that’s a rebuild.

If we look at the 4 focus points the Devs said they are using to refresh classes, or even look at the DK changes, we don’t see fundamental new mechanics, we see changes to existing mechanics.

What you’re asking for is $50 worth of merchandise but not realizing that we’re only holding a bag that can carry $25 worth of merchandise. You’re not asking for bad things you’re just asking for things that don’t appear to be in-scope based on what information the Devs have given us.

Dev Class Refresh Objectives:

1) Reorganizing class skill lines – This can include moving abilities or passives so each line has clearer identity and value, and so role power is not overly concentrated.

This could have a questionable impact on Pets, on one hand having them all in one skill line reinforces that line’s identity, but on the other hand spreading them out would break up their concentration. If we look at the Devs view for Sorc identity it’s unclear whether this one supports pets or not.


2) More benefits for sticking with your core class lines – This is the “pure classing should feel strong again” part, without deleting subclassing.

This is the part where people are comparing all Sorc skills against the other classes, to identify the weakest areas for Sorc as a whole.


3)Decentralizing role-specific power – Instead of one skill line containing every tool needed for tanking, healing, or damage, the tools get spread out so choices matter and subclass stacking is less dominant.

So this along with objective one really drives home the idea that any pet that Sorc might keep would get broken up across multiple skill lines. This, IMO, reinforces the suggestion of a conjuring skill line so that Pets can still be organized and supported by more direct passives.


4) Modernization, not just nerfs – the goal is not “necessarily to nerf,” but to make abilities and passives punchier with better nuance so subclassing does not completely dominate.

If they’re looking to make passives more beneficial then Sorc needs to have a clear direction one way or another. In the face of subclassing either our passives are going to enhance our pets or our class without pets but trying to split our passives between Pet Sorc vs no Pet will see other classes having a better pool of possible passives as they won’t have to share like we will.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Following the New-DK rework approach, the revamped class will distribute damage, heal, and tank across three skill lines, aiming for maximum equality across these three levels and across various subclasses. However, what happens if we want Sorc to retain the pet skill line?

Due to the highly specialized nature of the pet theme, it's difficult to distribute them across the other two skill lines. Therefore, to align with subclasses, the reworked Sorc will likely need to consolidate all pet-related skills into Daedric Summoning.

Then the question arises: why would a nopet-Sorc waste a skill line? Or why is only one skill line useful for pet-Sorc?

Some might argue that Warden and Necromancer also have pets, but remember, Warden currently only has one pet, and that's for their ultimate skill. Necromancer pets have long been distributed across other skill lines, such as Spirit Mender. Therefore, the former is easily adjustable, while the latter, because its entire theme revolves around summons, doesn't feel out of place even with summons across all three skill lines.

However, Sorc is different. It now has three themes. Even if we condense them, for example, by combining Lightning and Black Magic to create Destruction Magic, or Daedric summons and Black Magic to create Daedric Magic, there are still have two themes。Unlike Necromancer which only has a single theme. Furthermore, Sorc's Daedric Summoning has four pet-related skills, so you can't freely distribute these four skills across other skill lines. Otherwise, what would happen?

First, pure Sorc might be unaffected, but for subclasses, there would be a significant impact. At least two lines would suffer a 50% reduction in pet damage due to the lack of Daedric Prey. And, the other two lines, lacking the Storm Calling passive, would also have lower pet damage in the subclass environment, potentially a 10% reduction. And, since Pet-Sorc damage in PvE previously relied mainly on stacking multiple pets with Daedric Prey, but because a single pet's power was insufficient, many Sorc players would use the Maw of the Infernal to enhance and stack pet damage. However, if you spread your pet across three skill lines, then unfortunately, if you're not the main Sorc, you can't have multiple Sorc skill lines, so the subclasses will end up with very weak pets. Making the three Sorc skill lines unsuitable for subclasses is tantamount to deleting the Sorc, and it also violates the new rework rules.

So what do we gain by abandoning the Sorc pet? The freed-up skills can be made into spam skills, sticky DoTs, or powerful area-of-effect damage—all things Sorc desperately needs. Secondly, Sorc skill slots will no longer be cramped, as we no longer need to waste six slots on four pet-related skills, nor do we need to allocate one-third of our skills and passives to pets. These skills and passives can then be used to enhance other aspects of Sorc, making its core focus more concentrated.

Honestly, I hope that they bin Daedric Prey and do something entirely different with that morph.

It is such a terrible and utterly unnecessary ability to even exist. Pet damage should be concentrated in the active abilities and ideally completely removed as a passive effect and then those abilities should be tuned to whatever their ideal balanced level is without the need for the big dumb crutch known as Daedric Prey.