New Dragonknight ability and passive names still need changes

Ratzkifal · February 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If we take out thu'um references from DK you may as well change templar's Aedric Spear also. Its just not necessary, its clearly not literal. An odd and very small hill to die on.

First of all, let's not twist the facts, we are not "taking out" Thu'um references from DK. We are arguing whether to insert them.
Secondly, there is an argument for Aedric Spear to no longer be called "Aedric", especially after choosing a vampiric motif to serve as the spear model after the animation changes. But let's also not kid ourselves that taking references to the divine out of Templar is the same as taking out not adding Thu'um references to DK. Nobody is taking the dragon out of dragonknight just because they don't have a passive called The Storm Voice, and 99% of Templars have chosen the class to be a holy warrior and only 1% (like me) chose it because they like spears and it's the only way to get one in this game.
I think it's a very odd hill to die on that Dragonknights must have a passive with that name, because it does not get in the way of your headcanon whatsoever if they don't. It does however get in the way of every non-Nord DK if they are now connected to the Thu'um, whether that's directly or indirectly. Keeping it vague is obviously better

BardokRedSnow · February 19

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If we take out thu'um references from DK you may as well change templar's Aedric Spear also. Its just not necessary, its clearly not literal. An odd and very small hill to die on.

First of all, let's not twist the facts, we are not "taking out" Thu'um references from DK. We are arguing whether to insert them.
Secondly, there is an argument for Aedric Spear to no longer be called "Aedric", especially after choosing a vampiric motif to serve as the spear model after the animation changes. But let's also not kid ourselves that taking references to the divine out of Templar is the same as taking out not adding Thu'um references to DK. Nobody is taking the dragon out of dragonknight just because they don't have a passive called The Storm Voice, and 99% of Templars have chosen the class to be a holy warrior and only 1% (like me) chose it because they like spears and it's the only way to get one in this game.
I think it's a very odd hill to die on that Dragonknights must have a passive with that name, because it does not get in the way of your headcanon whatsoever if they don't. It does however get in the way of every non-Nord DK if they are now connected to the Thu'um, whether that's directly or indirectly. Keeping it vague is obviously better

Semantics, taking out of the pts... you're too emotionally invested in this discussion if you're coming at me over something like that.

Whether you're a Nord or not, its a fact that the akaviri arts, this kiai, is derived from observing the thu'um. That's not a debate that is lore fact. So it doesn't get in the way of anything its literally already connected to the thu'um. Reman Cyrodiil, the dragons themselves in Akavir, they've been exposed to the thu'um already, that's the whole reason the thu'um and kiai are similar. They already knew about Dragonborn even, and is why they were searching for one prior to meeting him.

They are connected. Connected doesn't mean they're the same. And it was already the case before "The Storm Voice" skill line name in this pts.

If you want to be consistent and argue aedric spear should be gone then so be it I do appreciate the consistency. To me though that just goes to show that the developers are not naming these skill lines with literal intent, and if people want to request that they do, thats a different discussion.

BardokRedSnow · February 19

MarTheChanger wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I like this write up so don't take this response as a rebuttal or argument, just my understanding of things right or not.

Just want to start off by saying, very much appreciated, and understood! I just love to talk about this setting, sharing what I know, and learning new things myself, especially when getting into stuff with ambiguity and no definitive answer (as long as everyone involved recognizes that that might be the case!) I hope I do not come across as condescending or anything in any way at any point, just eager to share, and learn!

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Curalmil was from old days when Skyrim wasn't even icy yet, and was obviously not a typical Nord. That said he is a Nord. He is able to be a dragon priest enemy if your level is high enough.

I feel bad starting with a disagreement, but for this, I don't think it's that certain, at least with that evidence. Red Eagle, for instance, also shows up as a draugr who can appear as a dragon priest at high enough levels, and he is a Reachman, rather than a Nord, and from 1E1030 at that, far later than when the Dragon Cult was last around, pointing towards that particular situation being a quirk of the leveled enemy lists, rather than an intentional lore statement (especially when other confirmed-Nord cases like Yngol, Ysgramor's own son, can be a dragon priest!) Taking into consideration the Call to Arms tabletop game, Red Eagle and Curalmil both get Draugr Lord-style named minis in 2024, which seems to be an affirmation of what they're supposed to be (and asserts that the non-Nordic Red Eagle is still a draugr). Beyond that, dragon worship isn't exclusive to Nords, either, as seen with the New Moon Cult and their effective dragon priest Ra'khajin. It is a much bigger and deeper part of Nordic lore and culture, to be certain, across both Atmora and Tamriel, but others can and have joined them in it, as well.

I'd like to bring up his name again, as well; I know that in real-life archaeology, "looks like" or "sounds like" is poor evidence on it's own, but in constructed fiction, it can be a different story. Among Nordic names, "Curalmil" is wholly out of place, being vastly different from the others even across the millennia of evolution we have names from. On the other hand, it fits right in alongside Altmer names, like with Curandil, Vairalmil, and a couple dozen other Cur- and -mil names. We do know that elves had been present all across Skyrim by the time Ysgramor showed up, as well; he did call it "Mereth" at first because of them, after all! While I won't say that he was for sure an Altmer - heck, he could've been a Nord who took a name that sounded like theirs, perhaps raised and taught alchemy by them! - these things lead me to believe in a strong possibility that he was one, or influenced by them in some way.

(Sorry to get so long-winded on such a relatively minor point, but digging through sources across the history of the series and effectively performing in-universe archaeology is fun!)

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Mankar Camoran is a very special case, he was a Bosmer and used either the Mehrunes Razor or Mysterium Xarxes, I forget which, to make himself both altmer, aldmer really, and dragonborn, if you believe his writings.

The razor theoretically can cut more than just to kill, he used it to cut away the parts of him that made him lesser in his blood, I.E. his bosmer blood and left only the Aldmer blood which all elves were, Old Ehlnofex then Aldmeris. And he also "cut" his soul in the shape of a dragon, thus artificially making himself dragonborn and being able to allegedly thu'um. This is all theoretical but makes sense because the Amulet of Kings did allow him to wear it and saw his blood as worthy.

Ooh, a fascinating read on things! I hadn't considered the possibility of the razor being capable of anything of the sort, thinking of it as mainly just an extremely lethal weapon, like from being able to puncture any armor with little effort or kill with the smallest cut. A grander power like that would make sense too, though; many have coveted the blade, often for greater reasons or aspirations than even the deadliest blade would help with (especially when they still remain vulnerable to a well-placed arrow or spell), but the ability to "cut" through metaphysical things and change them would. As for Mankar, my understanding was more that reading the MX revealed secrets to him that let him achieve a degree of CHIM, especially since he discusses it and the metaphysical Tower, and used that with Dagon's power to reshape himself, wear the AoK, and create Gaiar Alata.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All that said, there are probably special circumstances for a lot of things, being dragonborn is already one special circumstance. And even if it is only Nords, Imperials basically are southern Nords anyway. Its more likely man aligned peoples especially after the Marukhati Selective's dragon break and inserting Lorkhan into Akatosh where they cut out Auri-El,

Generally speaking though your average elf or cat man shouldn't be thu'uming. Even your average Nord is only potentially able, supposedly because Nords are literally breathed onto Snow Throat by Kyne which would literally or not literally mean Nords are composed of the Voice and Kyne herself, the same way elves are remnants of their Ehlnofex and Et'ada ancestors.

Metaphysical mumbo jumbo sorry, I love rambling about lore even if its all mostly theoretical.

I agree with what you say here regardless. Protect the brood isn't literal no but I get why people raise an eyebrow at it. Im indifferent to it.

I largely agree on this, yeah. It should be very rare for non-Nords to Shout, with exceptions being very few and far between, like with Red Eagle's draugr and the Ebony Warrior in Skyrim, and very likely Nurarion in ESO (not by name, but described nearly identically to Wulfharth). I like that it can be a thing that anyone could theoretically learn, should they desire it, but with very few non-Nords knowing much about it, and fewer still having the willingness or means to go learn in High Hrothgar or make a pact with a Daedric Prince (like in Nurarion's possible case and a reasonable explanation for Red Eagle given the Reachmen-Daedra connections (if he even could in life and it's not just a quirk of him being a draugr in death and the resulting in-game mechanics of it)), there end up only being a handful of cases throughout all Tamrielic history of non-Nord Tongues (this sentence was such a mess but I hope it's understandable). I hope that they keep it that way, and personally would like a tweak to the passive's name and description to not be the Thu'um itself, but still connected to dragons; I went into a bit more detail in my previous post and will just point to that rather than repeat it here, though, to avoid repeating myself too much and save space. The wild world of the metaphysical stuff in the series is one of my favorite parts, too, but sadly I think getting into that here and now would get even more wildly off-topic than has already happened!

No need to feel bad, thats a fair argument, I totally forgot about Red Eagle.

Curalmil definitely does stand out, and from the 500 companions we at least know that Nords had half elves among them even if they were ashamed of their blood. If I were to argue in good faith I'd say maybe Curalmil was descended from a slave or something since Nords did take elven slaves, but slave or not he could've been elven. But to use the same argument about the video game level list shenanigans, whether Curalmil was elven or not, his ability to thu'um could've also been more videogame shenanigans from simply being the undead race of skyrim, default draugr. As you suggest here also already of course.

Maybe its my bias but I'm more inclined to believe that simply because by your own example, Khajiit had a whole dragon cult of their own and direct contact with Nafaalilargus who aided them in multiple ways, but none of them were taught the thu'um.

Mankar Camoran did have access to knowledge of CHIM thats true but if he had any sort of CHIM god level without zero summing, he'd have done a lot more than just change his race, at least in my opinion, or his own soul. We'd have no way to kill him.

Either way whether it was CHIM, mehrunes razor, or other means, its at least accepted that he artificially changed himself to possibly be dragonborn. There's even precedent that Chim-El Adabal itself has a will due to it being an Ayleid soul gem with the souls of emperors, and akatosh's essence as well as being from Lorkhan's own heart. Mannimarco suggests it specifically could bestow the dragon soul to someone and make them dragonborn if certain conditions are met, which even if that was never realized because it was bait, the precedent is there. Was a theory I had for a long time, but one that will likely never be fully proven wrong or right since there's multiple possibilities for every emperor having been dragonborn.

Tiber Septim being breton or nord for instance, it doesn't matter one way or another since he gains CHIM and becomes a god from a dragonbreak and becomes a divine in all timelines. Same with being dragonborn, he and wulfharth's legend and origins are made one, retroactively be it by the amulet or wulfharth, he's dragonborn now regardless.

Im kinda rambling again lol, but basically Bloodline or race isn't necessary to be dragonborn at least, that's well established.

And yea that's ultimately where I'm at, I wouldn't want the thu'um to be a widespread thing in tamriel like common magic, whether its possible or not, same as I wouldn't want everyone knowing how to sword sing potentially.

The Kiai before eso came out I would've said the same thing but there's less precedence for stating its impossible or unlikely for others to learn when it was formed from proximity to dov, dragonborn or dragon.

And to bring it on topic lol, I don't believe naming a single skill line after the thu'um makes dragon knights tongues. Anymore than templars are now Aedra.

Personofsecrets · February 19

I don't know if the design team plays Magic the Gathering, but in a vain attempt to relate the feeling of what is happening to that game and how it feels just like what is happening to DK, I have this comparison.

Recently, the greater powers at Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast have steered the game towards making all kinds of pop-culture references that are otherwise unnatural. Some players have called the changes "slop" due to how they percieve the game that they have played for a long time being transformed into something more basic and without distinction. Some have called the process of changes to be "enshittification" because of their perception that what is being done is a self-contradictory process which is may attract a lowest common denominator of player, but makes the game overall worse to make such an appeal.

In my mind, these dynamics will ultimately be the legacy of the class "refresh." Cowabunga!

On the off chance that you play Magic, maybe this will help you understand the process of what you are actively doing.

A nerfed battle roar removed from Earthen Heart that depends on skills slotted, there being no helping hands, there being no reason to cast Igneous Shield, and Earthen Heart abilities not procing Minor Brutality is not what it means to be a DK tank.

It's not what it means to be a DK.

It's not what it means to play Elder Scrolls Online.

You have decided on stealing the identity of the DK, replacing that which was taken with completely foreign game elements that even sound bizarre, and ultimately you are not achieving the objective of giving DK more idenity. You are stealing the identity. I can't write something worse than that on the forums.

If you can make these changes without hesitation to beloved ways of playing, just like you knowingly gutted Standard despite players love for it as such an iconic ability, then you simply have no game design principles and do not have players feelings in mind. If you cannot honor decade old ways of how players enjoyed the DK and forged an identiy through by developing playstyles for that class, then you simply believe in nothing. You certainly do not believe in identity because you are stealing identity. It's nothing, it's slop, it's playing Magic with cards that have the creature types "mutant," "ninja," and "turtle" and not feeling bad about it.

As the Celestial Mage says, Why do you persist? Turn back.

But really, why do you persist? How can you sleep on the changes and not only think that they are good, but disregard all of the players who enjoy not just the here and now, but the character identity that they have forged for years? That is troubling. If I had to relate what is going on to human psychology, as designers seem to feel obligated to do, then this is the Stanford prison experiment and there are design team members who are the prison guards of video game design. But what's new?

Personofsecrets · February 19

Why on God's green Earth would the design team mess around with passives by making them much worse only to give new and different passive abilities back in exchange for being a pure DK?

I want the passive abilities that I have used for years just perfectly happily. How completely wretched of a transpiring.

Ratzkifal · February 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If we take out thu'um references from DK you may as well change templar's Aedric Spear also. Its just not necessary, its clearly not literal. An odd and very small hill to die on.

First of all, let's not twist the facts, we are not "taking out" Thu'um references from DK. We are arguing whether to insert them.
Secondly, there is an argument for Aedric Spear to no longer be called "Aedric", especially after choosing a vampiric motif to serve as the spear model after the animation changes. But let's also not kid ourselves that taking references to the divine out of Templar is the same as taking out not adding Thu'um references to DK. Nobody is taking the dragon out of dragonknight just because they don't have a passive called The Storm Voice, and 99% of Templars have chosen the class to be a holy warrior and only 1% (like me) chose it because they like spears and it's the only way to get one in this game.
I think it's a very odd hill to die on that Dragonknights must have a passive with that name, because it does not get in the way of your headcanon whatsoever if they don't. It does however get in the way of every non-Nord DK if they are now connected to the Thu'um, whether that's directly or indirectly. Keeping it vague is obviously better

Semantics, taking out of the pts... you're too emotionally invested in this discussion if you're coming at me over something like that.

Right back at you. You are the one who keeps coming back into this discussion. For someone who has been participating in this thread as much as the one who created it in the first place, I'd say you are pretty emotionally invested yourself. At least I get a notification any time someone comments. What's your excuse?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Whether you're a Nord or not, its a fact that the akaviri arts, this kiai, is derived from observing the thu'um. That's not a debate that is lore fact. So it doesn't get in the way of anything its literally already connected to the thu'um. Reman Cyrodiil, the dragons themselves in Akavir, they've been exposed to the thu'um already, that's the whole reason the thu'um and kiai are similar.

It's not a fact that the Akaviri arts are derived from observing the Thu'um. Where are you reading that? Where is this "lore fact"? Give me a single credible source for it, because otherwise I'm only seeing you speculating here. It's less of a stretch to say they were inspired by dragons (wings, scales, fire) but you are making it specifically about the Thu'um and then claim they are derived from it. We have a real Tsaesci (or Imperial with Tsaesci heritage) claiming that the Akaviri had "potent powers" before they ever met Reman (source: Legacy of the Dragonguard). Other than Mysterious Akavir and the name of the continent, what lore is there that there are actual dragons in Akavir at all? Or that these "dragons" are capable of using the Thu'um in the first place. For all we know this could be a Daggerfall dragonling situation where they are called dragons but actually aren't dragons at all and were simply mistaken for them due to their appearance. The dragonhorns could have been invented by the Tsaesci on Tamriel.
I'm willing to believe there were real dragons on Akavir, but to claim with certainty that the Akaviri Kiai is derived from the Thu'um? When Children of the Sky is trying to explain the very Thu'um by comparing it to, supposedly, one of its derivatives rather than Tonal architecture or Sword-Singing? Talk about circular definitions. You do not have me convinced here. So show me some proof, or stop proclaiming unverified info as factual.
For someone who keeps ragging on about me arguing semantics and to not take everything so literally, you are quite fond of taking things literal whenever they suit you.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They already knew about Dragonborn even, and is why they were searching for one prior to meeting him.

You say they knew about what a "dragonborn" is, but when that lore was written dragonborn and Thu'um had no connection and there is obviously a whole lot more to being dragonborn considering most dragonborn emperors of Tamriel did not wield the Thu'um despite being dragonborn, yet it was still meaningful that they were dragonborn, considering the Amulet of Kings and Dragonfire and all that. There is also the possibility that the Akaviri came to Tamriel for a completely different reason but discovered what a dragonborn is when they met Reman - looking for silver and finding gold, so to speak.
Considering the Tsaesci seem to be pretty fond of killing dragons, I think the ability of a dragonborn to permanently kill a dragon is of much greater interest to the Tsaesci than the ability to use dragonshouts. Especially considering the later conflict of the Blades and the Grey Beards involving Paarthurnax, I'm not sure the Blades and therefore the Tsaesci were ever that interested in learning the Thu'um.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They are connected. Connected doesn't mean they're the same. And it was already the case before "The Storm Voice" skill line name in this pts.

They are connected in the same way the Thu'um is connected to Tonal Archtecture, the Spinners and Sword-Singing. Which is to say, not really connected at all other than the vague concept of using sound to presumably vibrate the very fabric of reality to somewhat bend to your will in a way that is distinctly different from regular magic. And the evidence for the Akaviri kiai being in this category in the first place is already lacking. It might just be an expression to fancifully describe a battle-cry - a kiai which we know from real life east asian martial arts. Not to mention that the source book for this, Children of the Sky, is already inaccurate and contradicted. Nord sieges are boring plain old sieges, which we saw in Whiterun and ESO. Where are the tongues at the gate? Where are the Skywhales? Where is the wasabi to protect against Skywhales? As much as I prefer Skyrim to be like Kirkbride described it, I couldn't stand here and claim that it's all 100% factual when that's just setting up my expectation for disappointment. So where do you take the confidence that Children of the Sky is still accurate when it has already been contradicted once? At least I base my claims on the sources ESO itself has provided - Gabrielle Benele and Drusus Ovicula don't think their powers come from actual dragons. Dragonknight traditions go back further than Reman, according to Kiasa-Veda.
For the sake of the argument, even if, and that's a big "if", you are right and the Akaviri Kiai and Thu'um are fundamentally the same, the name "The Storm Voice" is a Nord name for it when the class has far greater ties to its Tsaesci roots and should therefore have a passive named "Akaviri Kiai" over "The Storm Voice". Are you at least willing to admit this?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want to be consistent and argue aedric spear should be gone then so be it I do appreciate the consistency. To me though that just goes to show that the developers are not naming these skill lines with literal intent, and if people want to request that they do, thats a different discussion.

The developers are not naming these skill lines with literal intent because the combat devs are not the same as the lore devs. It's the same reason after the Wrathstone racial passives update we got many Bosmer and Khajiit NPCs in Elsweyr arguing who is stealthier after the combat team had taken stealth away from the Bosmer for no good reason. It felt pretty tone-deaf at the time, but realistically it's just the lore team having a different opinion than the combat team on the matter. I still don't know what the combat team was thinking then, but considering they haven't reversed it, I'll continue believing that they are simply ignorant of the broader implications and someone on the team was thinking about Legolas' elven eyes that made them go "wood elves can see better than others". It's dumb. It shouldn't be like this. It's another addition on Malacath's list of grudges.

Ratzkifal · February 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I don't know if the design team plays Magic the Gathering, but in a vain attempt to relate the feeling of what is happening to that game and how it feels just like what is happening to DK, I have this comparison.

Recently, the greater powers at Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast have steered the game towards making all kinds of pop-culture references that are otherwise unnatural. Some players have called the changes "slop" due to how they percieve the game that they have played for a long time being transformed into something more basic and without distinction. Some have called the process of changes to be "enshittification" because of their perception that what is being done is a self-contradictory process which is may attract a lowest common denominator of player, but makes the game overall worse to make such an appeal.

In my mind, these dynamics will ultimately be the legacy of the class "refresh." Cowabunga!

On the off chance that you play Magic, maybe this will help you understand the process of what you are actively doing.

A nerfed battle roar removed from Earthen Heart that depends on skills slotted, there being no helping hands, there being no reason to cast Igneous Shield, and Earthen Heart abilities not procing Minor Brutality is not what it means to be a DK tank.

It's not what it means to be a DK.

It's not what it means to play Elder Scrolls Online.

You have decided on stealing the identity of the DK, replacing that which was taken with completely foreign game elements that even sound bizarre, and ultimately you are not achieving the objective of giving DK more idenity. You are stealing the identity. I can't write something worse than that on the forums.

If you can make these changes without hesitation to beloved ways of playing, just like you knowingly gutted Standard despite players love for it as such an iconic ability, then you simply have no game design principles and do not have players feelings in mind. If you cannot honor decade old ways of how players enjoyed the DK and forged an identiy through by developing playstyles for that class, then you simply believe in nothing. You certainly do not believe in identity because you are stealing identity. It's nothing, it's slop, it's playing Magic with cards that have the creature types "mutant," "ninja," and "turtle" and not feeling bad about it.

As the Celestial Mage says, Why do you persist? Turn back.

But really, why do you persist? How can you sleep on the changes and not only think that they are good, but disregard all of the players who enjoy not just the here and now, but the character identity that they have forged for years? That is troubling. If I had to relate what is going on to human psychology, as designers seem to feel obligated to do, then this is the Stanford prison experiment and there are design team members who are the prison guards of video game design. But what's new?

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Why on God's green Earth would the design team mess around with passives by making them much worse only to give new and different passive abilities back in exchange for being a pure DK?

I want the passive abilities that I have used for years just perfectly happily. How completely wretched of a transpiring.

As much as I relate, and feel that merely associating the DK with the Thu'um cheapens the Thu'um in much of a similar way that Magic is cheapening itself by making all of these cross-overs over original ideas, try keeping your posts on topic please. This is not about balance. This is specifically about the names. The balance discussions are happening in other threads.
But on that note, I completely agree. I didn't expect them to add pureclass passives, which goes agaist what they were doing to the dragonknight's skill lines. Now from the way they described it, it sounded the pureclass passives might be going away after all the class refreshes are done - but they might also stay because people ended up liking them too much. If they stay, there is no reason to continue the process of scrambling the skill lines to disincentivise subclassing and they can (and should) undo the scrambling to make it more attractive to subclass into Dragonknight again, since it is the only class so far that was deliberately made to disincentivise it.

Personofsecrets · February 20

As much as I relate, and feel that merely associating the DK with the Thu'um cheapens the Thu'um in much of a similar way that Magic is cheapening itself by making all of these cross-overs over original ideas, try keeping your posts on topic please. This is not about balance. This is specifically about the names. The balance discussions are happening in other threads.
But on that note, I completely agree. I didn't expect them to add pureclass passives, which goes agaist what they were doing to the dragonknight's skill lines. Now from the way they described it, it sounded the pureclass passives might be going away after all the class refreshes are done - but they might also stay because people ended up liking them too much. If they stay, there is no reason to continue the process of scrambling the skill lines to disincentivise subclassing and they can (and should) undo the scrambling to make it more attractive to subclass into Dragonknight again, since it is the only class so far that was deliberately made to disincentivise it.

Thinking about how bad the skill names are becoming is what caused me to begin to write my post. For example, I cannot think of any design goals that the term "Earthspike Mantle" meets. It's simply meaningless change. I'm aggravated that a number of names, such as that one, can get pawned off by design and nobody really questions the underlying premise.

This flavor is related to that of what the skill looks like. And it was odd to hear that the design team cheapened the look of the skill, but then made the skill bigger looking as to meet players expectations of how the skill should look like. This is all contradictory though because the skill looks fine on live and the design team having to make the new version of the skill bigger, like it is on live, is a concession to that idea.

I can understand why one may feel like there are distinctions between discussing naming conventions and discussing other ability changes such as the look or balance, but the more wholistic point of view is that flavor changes and other changes are all bad for the same reason. They are coming from a place of upending current identity in exchange for a meaningless substitution.

You may disagree with that idea because you wrote the following idea which constitutes a distinction between flavor and other parts of a skill.

Balance changes are one thing, balance always changes so there is no real point to get worked up about it, unless it's bigger system changes like hybridization, subclassing or scribing, because these things will stay in the game.

This notion was extremly unwelcome and worked against my commentary. I was surprised that someone such as yourself, who has well thought out issues with upcoming changes, would both come up with the idea and then post the idea in a break of solidarity which is badly needed.

Flavor without looks and numbers is a book. Elder Scrolls Online is not a book. There are books in the game and books about parts of the game, but Elder Scrolls Online is a game. The skills are composed of different components. They are not just words. If the flavor of the skills change, then of course the other parts of the skill change. That is what seems to be the entire point of the update being supposedly about class identiy. It seems to be about laundering balance changes as if they are a flavor change only. I write that, because as you may point out, the flavor changes make zero sense. That is all while the balance changes seem to have motivation behind them despite not meeting the designers stated objectives.