This is what "they didn't listen" means.

Personofsecrets · February 15

There have been a number of PTS updates that were discussed by players in the community, commented on by design, changed, and then marked as part of a changelog by design. This is helpful to see where there was listening. And that is all good. There are way too many changes in the game that go undocumented or places where people wonder if their feedback matters.

And that is where I sort of am. My outlook regarding a number of DK changes is that they are identity destroying. That idea was not commented on. I provided a number of skill specific feedback regarding the effects of passive abilities and none of those things were commented on. Some of the feedback that I've given, I've seen mirrored in other posts and even by a popular streamer. Those feeedbacks were not commented on. Outside of what I've specifically pointed out, there are changes that are mostly viewed as negative which have not been commented on by design. Lastly, there are changes which basically everyone agrees are bad which have not been commented on by design.

The entire range of possibilities have numerous points where there isn't listening. So even though there has been listening, there also still hasn't been listening in important ways.

I personally believe that the changes to Battle Roar and Helping Hands are class feel and identity destroying. Changing a number of skills such as removing speed from chains, instant fossilization, or the high damage Standard is washing parts of the DK identity away. The continued treatment of Magma Shell and Corrosive Armor, like they are the worse things on Earth, shows double standards in balance and design team thinking. The approach to some passives such as health regeneration and the god-awful heavy attack passive is uncreative, unfun, and tone-deaf. Even some ability appearances are quite bad, such as Molten Weapons, and it makes me wonder what the vision for Dragon Knight really is.

It is ironic that, while discussing the game with brand new, and I mean brand new players, I found WoW converts. Apparently there is some drama in WoW about the vision for the game. And I read something from an authority of that game that is quite interesting.

We described their concerns as "feedback we're monitoring." We are always monitoring. We have never once changed course because of monitoring.

We are very good at listening. Eventually. When the feature aligns with a monetization roadmap.

It's honestly too bad that players can't form a bigger part of the decision making process. These goings ons with the Dragonknight and the game industry as a whole really making me wonder what exactly causes some very bad ideas to come to fruition. I have to wonder what causes a design member to care about a change in this case where no specific criteria seems to invoke them to change something bad. What is listened to seems mostly random except for maybe incredibly egregious stuff. And the idea that there can be incredibly egregious stuff, and there certainly has been, is a bad sign in and of itself. How can there be changes proposed that literally nobody likes. Presumably it takes several design team members to come up with and enact a change. How could each one be a black swan who thinks "yea, Earth Spike Mantle is a great name and it should look like a tiny backpack." How could each one sign off on "Wing Buffet." How strange and troubling.

xylena · February 15

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It's honestly too bad that players can't form a bigger part of the decision making process

Players can agree on identifying problems, but no way do players ever agree on decisions going forward, look at that ridiculous heal stacking thread.

The feedback and interaction from the new dev team is miles ahead of the previous one, let's not let the best be the enemy of the better. They do need to familiarize themselves with the meta.

I'll reserve judgment for the DK rework until I actually play with it on live, but it says something that it has me optimistic to log in for an update for the first time in a long time.

GloatingSwine · February 15

At no point did they even acknowledge feedback about how the class would be affected for support roles. It was all tweaks of damage numbers.

DK has gone from high value to dead for tanking, and they didn't care, and their changes have made it no more valuable to healers than its previous zero value becuase the buffs don't work the way they'd need to. RIP.

Personofsecrets · February 15

xylena wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It's honestly too bad that players can't form a bigger part of the decision making process

Players can agree on identifying problems, but no way do players ever agree on decisions going forward, look at that ridiculous heal stacking thread.

The feedback and interaction from the new dev team is miles ahead of the previous one, let's not let the best be the enemy of the better. They do need to familiarize themselves with the meta.

I'll reserve judgment for the DK rework until I actually play with it on live, but it says something that it has me optimistic to log in for an update for the first time in a long time.

Yes, and that is another issue where I have problems about the changes about to happen. Where there is unadressed feedback due to what may be players own debate, changes should be dropped. I generally have a preferences towards keeping things the same and the benefit of that is not disenfranchsing players.

For example, I personally don't care about poison DK, but there were some good points brought up on the topic. Ultimately, no player concerns were addressed about the issue of such a big change that impacts a number of players character identity. Because change is being priviliged above all else, these players are now looking at losing an essential part of their play experience. It's gone. Some players plan on deleting their characters. That is an incredibly unfair change of policy for such players and it is somewhat troubling that design doesn't mind leaving them behind for a vision of the game which is not only not clear, but not even necessarily an improvement for the game.

It's also the case that better is a subjective idea. The thing I care about is tanking on a DK. That is the only thing that I've done for 10 years via a single toon. I have always felt like there are nerfs to the DK and changes to the game which make the DK tank less valuable. I have never seen these concerns addressed. Never. The upcoming changes to the DK are not better from my perspective. They do not improve DK tanking even despite there being a couple of changes that could have been interesting to test if it were not for the overall experience becoming much worse.

Developer feedback ignoring this part of the class during the PTS cycle is a mistep as most people see the DK as a tanking type of character. Tanking is essential aspect of the classes identity. Ignoring this part of the class has been the status quo. So developer commentary has not the best. It's not better. It's nothing.

If you don't know, we are losing large amounts of utility and resource generation in exchange for very very little.

Ratzkifal · February 15

While I don't quite share all of your opinion on the examples you are giving, I do share the general sentiment. At this point I'm used to my feedback getting completely ignored because apparently the things I care about are not mainstream enough.
This is like, what, the third time ZOS has been pushing changes to the live server despite them coming into direct conflict with the games' lore? And every time it was completely ignored. Guess nobody cares. Not even acknowledgement on the extensive feedback. It's one thing to get into a discussion and be told exactly what the developers think on the subject, but it's another to just get ghosted on a 90 page forum thread, followed by a PR statement in an article or on stream talking about how much the developers care and listen to feedback.

Bosmer still don't have their stealth back, but we did get a tone-deaf developer comment in the patchnotes that was completely divorced from the reality of the change. (No, you did not split the passive between Khajiit and Bosmer, you gave Khajiit the full passive and gave Bosmer nothing. No you did not expand options, you reduced the number of stealth options from 2 to 1. You said no two races can share a passive but several races do share passives now.)
Vampirism is still reversed and while we did eventually get an explanation, it's still a little strange to turn players into alchemically reversed vampires, just to support a mechanic that in the end nobody ended up liking to the point where it had to change again and everyone is now playing vamp at stage 1, maybe stage 2 because the penalties for stage 3 and 4 are too severe unless you are doing something very specific, resulting in a situation where instead of a full spectrum of vampirism people are once again playing vampire mostly without feeding on NPCs - the exact play pattern these changes were trying to erase, aka "sleeping on your vampirism".
Dragonknights are now using the Thu'um even though their abilities neither look nor sound like "The Storm Voice". I doubt this one will be changed anymore.

All of these issues are kind of low hanging fruit and don't matter one way or the other to the average player. But to those that do care it's disheartening to see feedback get ignored.
Balance changes are one thing, balance always changes so there is no real point to get worked up about it, unless it's bigger system changes like hybridization, subclassing or scribing, because these things will stay in the game.
Changes to existing lore ideally shouldn't happen at all, but when they do, they are generally also here to stay. So I think they are worth caring about, which makes it all the more frustrating that ZOS evidently does not share this sentiment, especially because the lore of this franchise is bigger than just their MMO.

Emeratis · February 15

On one hand, some of my feedback did get listened to and I'm grateful. On the other, there are things I care a lot about that had nothing but crickets and it's frustrating given broken promises from years ago. This is a good start for communication, but this is far from good enough in the long run. I hope we see an increase in communication quality as the new team gets more comfortable. I'm trying to be hopeful, but I also cannot ignore that my trust has been burned for years even though I love this game a lot. Either way, I'm eager to participate in the next pts and see how things change.

Freez6661 · February 16

Brother this people constantly ignore everything, meanwhile let’s focus on bigger picture

this “BIG” patch only reworks 1 class and 1 weapon line

meanwhile for me pure PVP player there are obvious the following, there are several things that needed to be adjusted years ago:

oblivion damage, what’s the point of having it in the game???
other classes, at least small tweaks
every class should be useful and strong without any subclassing
most myphics, what’s the point of their existence? we use 2-3 in PVP (one of them is pay to win btw)
300+ sets that should be reworked, meta makes us use 5 of all the sets in the game others are way too bad
reason to play IC, this place is soooo dead
most playstyles for pvp are dead

and I can keep going and going

So here is the bigger picture. From very beginning I see a lot of BS and zero feedback and will to do something. Another BIG and HUGE update brings nothing new to the game for PVP players. Meta remains the same. 98% of our gameplay remains the same. It needs small adjusts nothing revolutionary. But it NEEDS it now.

What I’m thankful for is after like 6-12 months of me and many others crying on forums they finally relized that 2-sided BGs are bad and people don’t like em, so far that’s the only real positive thing so far. On paper we can expect more however, I don’t see any communication they keep ignoring a lot of stuff.

What can we expect from people who don’t play their own game.

BardokRedSnow · February 16

Simply put, just because not everyone agrees with all their decisions, doesn't mean they didn't listen. They regularly made changes to the patch based on feedback here. I still am not crazy about the changes to corrosive but they fixed molten whip and now its an actual buff, the DK spikes got totally changed from what their first iteration was, Avalanche is now Landslide, the visual effects got toned down since so many people complained about how bright they were, much like Pyrebrand's heavy attack proc did.

They changed how dragon breath interacts with fury stacking, and also how many stacks it has, for better or worse, not sure yet how I feel about that change. They may have not listened to every last fan requesting everything, but they took far more feedback than they normally do.

Idk what to tell some of y'all but Zos will make changes to appeal to the most people, is the nature of a live service game. There will be more patches in the future with more changes and judging from how this one went, if this continues, your chances of being heard have gone up now vs in the past.

valenwood_vegan · February 16

I think they did a *better* but not perfect job of listening to some concerns and communicating during this PTS cycle. There's room for improvement and I hope they can follow through and continue what they started.

It did feel like communication was better on some possibly "pre-selected" or "pre-approved" topics where they more actively sought feedback and were willing to make changes; other topics did not see similar treatment or were entirely ignored.

I also think that despite the fresh optimism and new leadership and fresh coat of paint on things, so to speak, they are still imo suffering from things like layoffs and budget cuts and poor decisions in that past that limit their bandwidth to address issues in a timely manner. I really hope that improves but I don't think it's going to change overnight.

All of that said, lets not start confusing "they didn't listen to ME" with "they didn't listen."

Personofsecrets · February 16

Good isnt the enemy of the perfect, it's clearly become the enemy of the most basic issues that have not been addressed regarding changes that impact tanking.

I didnt realize that avalanche became landslide. It could have became turdflume. Who cares? Neither name has anything to do with Dragon Knights or that they are more fiery now (as if that mattered to anyone).

And ultimately all of the changes feel like a bunch of random junk stuck togrther rather than a coherent vision for the class or "identity." So now we see, of that which was thrown, what sticks. Gross!

I wish this was just a me issue, but there are actually other tanks in the game who will care about the nerfs which are about to happen. And, as I pointed out, there are players who get zero satisfaction regarding other issues.

That's actually why whether someone is a lore person or pvp peraon or whatever, there must be a shared coherent response. The changes are not good enough and the listening not good enough as to merrit the update actually happening. Way too many people are impacted adversely from different perspectives and there can be solidarity along those lines.

Drackolus · February 19

Ignoring DK and 2h, massive portions of the patch feel like a community wishlist, and I think they did a great job at utilizing feedback in those areas. I think it shouldn't be forgotten that this patch marks a massive improvement, especially considering how recently the studio underwent a large upheaval. The 2h disappointment, I think, stems from the fact that it needs more mechanical work, but the focus was stated to be on its visuals. And, to be fair, 2h is in a much better state than any of the 7 classes right now in terms of meeting it's goals.
As for the DK, I feel very confident in saying it is substantially further away from every goal except overall dps than the one we have on live, including overall visuals. A lot of these issues are fundamental and interconnected - I don't think they can be really fixed without going back to the drawing board. While they could have reverted some changes to help soften the blow - namely Helping Hands - it wouldn't have put it in a good place. I don't think that change alone would make DK tank still be good. The damage, however, at least did improve, even if it ultimately boiled down to two cookie-cutter builds based on whether you use Engulfing Dragonfire or not. Sliding around adjustments in that area really did result in some big improvements for those builds. I think their focus on that had the greatest reward-to-work ratio.
While it makes sense that the first refresh would very likely be the weakest, since it would be the one with the least experience in these refreshes, and also would be entering with the only comparisons being classes that were made in a different system entirely. That said, I think we can now say, in hindsight, that landing a full rework in one patch was probably unrealistic. From the outside, it does seem like they may have been overly ambitious. It seemed intimated to me earlier that a lot of the refresh team had already moved onto the next class. I can see how that could be better than sitting around waiting for feedback, and I think it's reasonable to guess that they didn't realize how poorly this refresh would turn out, and how much more work it would therefor need.
What they do next will show us more about how they are incorporating feedback on a larger scale, rather than a smaller one. A full pivot isn't a simple decision though, and I can see the argument that it will be easier to work on individual classes when they only live with classes based on the same design goals, which won't happen until the final refresh.
As much as I'd rather keep the one we have, both versions aren't ideal, and pushing this refresh will, at least, result in new data.
What I would like to see is for update 50 to have the next refresh (warden, it seems), and update 51 to be a re-refresh of the DK. Hopefully, by then, the team would be able to hit closer to the mark going forward.
I do think Arcanist should have been first, rather than last, seeing as is the biggest offender in every mechanical category by a wide margin, but would likely warrant the least visual work (Beams make way too much visual noise for how often they're active, which is compounded by how powerful and easy they are, thus it's prevalence). I hope they move it up way higher in the list, because it's a huge and temporary point of comparison, which makes judging anything else much harder.

MincMincMinc · February 19

Drackolus wrote: »

Ignoring DK and 2h, massive portions of the patch feel like a community wishlist, and I think they did a great job at utilizing feedback in those areas. I think it should be forgotten that this patch marks a massive improvement, especially considerinf how recent the large upheaval the studio recenty underwent. The 2h disappointment, I think, stems from the fact that it needs more mechanical work, but the focus was stated to be on its visuals. And, to be fair, 2h is in a much better state than any of the 7 classes right now in terms of meeting it's goals.

Even 2h work on the visuals and VFX were 50/50.

Uppercut - feels fine to play, but nolonger feels chunky like it used to back in the day. It now feels more like what should have been a dual wield skill. The VFX fluff also makes it hard to see the enemy at times because it is so overdone.....why are we bloating up the particle VFX on basic generic spammables, it just makes combat look messy? To add to that those effects could have been added to the morph effects like triggering offbalance or triggering berserk. Yet zos didnt tie them to the more important effects..........Offbalance doesnt even fit in with the new dizzy. Its so quick it isn't like the enemy can dodge it or see any of the visuals because the VFX hide it all.

Crit charge I will admit was a massive improvement. However its damage is so bad nobody uses it in pvp. Ontop of gapclosers being near useless in most content because player movement speed is so high there is no point wasting the skill slot.

Cleave just feels like fluff, the sound effects are super weak and not chunky sounding.

Reverse slash animation was super disappointing, we went from a spin over the head spiking animation to a generic slash that is indistinguishable. Then they just cranked up the VFX to do a giant particle effect each time.....again why not make the VFX trigger upon a killing blow? The sound effects are another tragedy because they dont even line up , some of the unique weapon sound effects are not even firing so the skill is silent.

momentum animation was a major improvement and the VFX were kept lowkey which is how it should be for a simple buff skill.

Onslaught is another tragedy because now it lost its bonk and clean animation. The new animation makes your character do a cartoony wood chop animation. The VFX is ok, but again compared to the uppercut or reverse slash VFX it seems underwhelming. Those overblown generic skill VFX just eclipse and undermine these ult skills.

TLDR: I feel like zos is missing game design 101. For combat you want to emphasis ultimates and CC effects which have a massive impact in battle with overblown VFX that everyone sees. Then for more generic skills that are used more often you should be focusing more on making the player animation and sound effects because that is what the individual player sees most often. Remember as a player I am staring at MY character in the center of my screen ALL the time.

Drackolus · February 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even 2h work on the visuals and VFX were 50/50.

Honestly, I don't think they should be worrying about weapon skills at all until the classes are done. They aren't what got tossed in a blender. I actually love subclassing, but the classes are in a really bad state for this new environment. It is pretty clearly the squeakiest wheel.

MincMincMinc · February 19

Drackolus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even 2h work on the visuals and VFX were 50/50.

Honestly, I don't think they should be worrying about weapon skills at all until the classes are done. They aren't what got tossed in a blender. I actually love subclassing, but the classes are in a really bad state for this new environment. It is pretty clearly the squeakiest wheel.

What probably happened was that they tried to do the frame reduction on the past few patches to cut down on performance. However none of the old animations looked right. So they decided to just redo all the animations instead. Timing wise they probably spun up the animation team to do the weapons as filler work while they wait on the combat team to figure out the more complex changing skills.

Unfortunately 2h was first on their list and will probably get stuck being rough around the edges.

Radiate77 · February 19

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

Soarora · February 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

You keep talking about whip, but what was your build anyway? If it wasn’t herald/assassination/ardent, then you’re right with us pure classers in the bin because viability has been narrowing over the years at an exponential speed. Us off-meta enjoyers have gone from being usable to being trash due to the shifting goalposts from the immense power creep from arcanist and then subclassing and the loss of unique buffs (each class bringing something to the table, now its shove all the something into one build). Pure class needs power back. Right now, slotting nightblade gives free 10k+ dps just by making the swap. Pure class cannot compete in any way.

Personofsecrets · February 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

I would rather have tanking as it is now rather than get access to that clown fiesta passive in exchange for playing a garbage pure DK build.

You were aggressively stanning for changes despite the woe-saying by others. Then there became a change that you disagreed with. This is an "I told you so moment."

Personofsecrets · February 19

Soarora wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

You keep talking about whip, but what was your build anyway? If it wasn’t herald/assassination/ardent, then you’re right with us pure classers in the bin because viability has been narrowing over the years at an exponential speed. Us off-meta enjoyers have gone from being usable to being trash due to the shifting goalposts from the immense power creep from arcanist and then subclassing and the loss of unique buffs (each class bringing something to the table, now its shove all the something into one build). Pure class needs power back. Right now, slotting nightblade gives free 10k+ dps just by making the swap. Pure class cannot compete in any way.

And how could Pure class DK compete when the designers, in this day and age, believe that a health regeneration and heavy attack for stamina passive are AT ALL APPROPRIATE? There is something CRITICALLY wrong with the design teams perspective and disposition.

Radiate77 · February 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

I would rather have tanking as it is now rather than get access to that clown fiesta passive in exchange for playing a garbage pure DK build.

You were aggressively stanning for changes despite the woe-saying by others. Then there became a change that you disagreed with. This is an "I told you so moment."

I was not aggressively anything. If me bringing the math to the table to show just how much better the change was for their stated goal, then idk what to tell you.

Radiate77 · February 20

Soarora wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

You keep talking about whip, but what was your build anyway? If it wasn’t herald/assassination/ardent, then you’re right with us pure classers in the bin because viability has been narrowing over the years at an exponential speed. Us off-meta enjoyers have gone from being usable to being trash due to the shifting goalposts from the immense power creep from arcanist and then subclassing and the loss of unique buffs (each class bringing something to the table, now its shove all the something into one build). Pure class needs power back. Right now, slotting nightblade gives free 10k+ dps just by making the swap. Pure class cannot compete in any way.

Adding Class Mastery Passives for classes not reworked yet is a brilliant idea. But post-rework, having access to game-changing passives like these that are ONLY available when you have all three skill lines…

… will kill any drive people have to participate in Subclassing outside of tiny niché circumstances.

Soarora · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

They absolutely do NOT listen.
“Whip having a DK restriction is a bad idea.”

ZOS probably- “So we’ve heard your concern regarding Whip, we’ve decided to 1-up you with Class Mastery Skill Lines.”

You keep talking about whip, but what was your build anyway? If it wasn’t herald/assassination/ardent, then you’re right with us pure classers in the bin because viability has been narrowing over the years at an exponential speed. Us off-meta enjoyers have gone from being usable to being trash due to the shifting goalposts from the immense power creep from arcanist and then subclassing and the loss of unique buffs (each class bringing something to the table, now its shove all the something into one build). Pure class needs power back. Right now, slotting nightblade gives free 10k+ dps just by making the swap. Pure class cannot compete in any way.

Adding Class Mastery Passives for classes not reworked yet is a brilliant idea. But post-rework, having access to game-changing passives like these that are ONLY available when you have all three skill lines…

… will kill any drive people have to participate in Subclassing outside of tiny niché circumstances.

Yeah, sorry. I was needlessly aggressive. I understand and empathize with you now. I'm a multiclassing hater so I would benefit from pure class being stronger than multiclass, however, discussions with other people makes it seem that there's a lot of sentiment that it should be 1 passive if you have 2 of your base class lines and 2 if you have all 3. Or 1 per line but I would argue that does not benefit pure class enough if you can just choose the strongest passive for your role and take 2 other lines.

xylena · February 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I would rather have tanking as it is now

I don't understand, pure DK is currently suboptimal, the meta tank is a tri class abomination, the DK rework is step 1 out of 7 towards addressing this. No it is not fixed in the short term which is frustrating, I totally get that as a PvP dot DK enjoyer, which still isn't going to be competitive with the tri class one shot specs, despite some pretty significant buffs.

But I'm willing to wait, because the alternative is the game withering away to nothing.

GloatingSwine · February 20

xylena wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I would rather have tanking as it is now

I don't understand, pure DK is currently suboptimal, the meta tank is a tri class abomination, the DK rework is step 1 out of 7 towards addressing this. No it is not fixed in the short term which is frustrating, I totally get that as a PvP dot DK enjoyer, which still isn't going to be competitive with the tri class one shot specs, despite some pretty significant buffs.

But I'm willing to wait, because the alternative is the game withering away to nothing.

Pure DK is currently suboptimal and the rework makes it worse. Helping Hands is being replaced with an idiot trap needing fully charged heavy, there isn't going to be a regular and reliable trigger for minor brutality in the way Stone Giant currently is, New Battle Roar will still be worse on pureclass DK tank than it is now because you use so many scribed and weapon skills as a tank you won't be barring three skills on both bars.

The current meta class is a tri-class subclass which includes DK, and DK will be removed for Arcanist after the rework.

What is there to wait for? DK is a dead class for tanks and unless they revert some of the changes or these class mastery passives are absolutely overwhelmingly good making pureclass DK the bestest possible tank in the whole game* it will remain dead until they recognise what damage they've done with the rework and undo it.

But these are people who think a health recovery passive that scales at low health is anything other than a cruel joke. So that's unlikely.

* Remember that Arcanist is getting these as well. If it brings pure classes back, they will be Arcanists.

xylena · February 20

GloatingSwine wrote: »

the rework makes it worse

You're getting too wrapped up in what the temporary U49 meta will look like. Bad luck that DK was the first, because we can't really judge until the other 6 classes are done, but keep in mind the meta will change drastically again in a few months for U50, and then again for U51, etc...

GloatingSwine · February 20

xylena wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

the rework makes it worse

You're getting too wrapped up in what the temporary U49 meta will look like. Bad luck that DK was the first, because we can't really judge until the other 6 classes are done, but keep in mind the meta will change drastically again in a few months for U50, and then again for U51, etc...

The only way this argument works is if every other class gets worse as well.

DK will not be getting better due to changes made to other classes, and it will be worse as a pure class tank after the rework than it is now. It might get better as a pureclass based on the class passives, or it might get another total clunker like health regen.

That's unavoidable, if you play a pure class DK tank now, your character gets worse next patch. The more you were optimising the value the class was providing to yourself and others the harder you will be hit because that value is either gone or harder to produce due to the nature of the skills it is now activated by.

And because the class will have gotten nerfed less people will use it so there will be less good feedback about what changes it might need to make it attractive again other than "put all the value back on one skill line so we can at least subclass into it".

(This is why changes should always start overpowered and be nerfed later, make it OP and everyone rushes to use it so you get loads of usage data, make it underpowered and they all rush to avoid it and you get no usage data).

Personofsecrets · February 20

xylena wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

the rework makes it worse

You're getting too wrapped up in what the temporary U49 meta will look like. Bad luck that DK was the first, because we can't really judge until the other 6 classes are done, but keep in mind the meta will change drastically again in a few months for U50, and then again for U51, etc...

No, DK deserves to have the tools that it has had for 10 years. If you don't get that, please don't bother debating because we have a disagreement so fundamental that communication willl be impossible.

xylena · February 20

GloatingSwine wrote: »

The only way this argument works is if every other class gets worse as well

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No, DK deserves to have the tools that it has had for 10 years. If you don't get that

Yes, reworking and rebalancing all 7 classes will result in some things being nerfed, other things being buffed. If DK tanking ends up as bad as you guys fear then yes, by all means continue to voice your frustration to the devs. But I don't think "my suboptimal spec is now even less optimal" really means anything. I'll wager all my gold you guy still clear the same content.

By the end of all the reworks, pure DK tanking will be in a much better state than it is now, as will any other conceivable pure DK spec, along with off meta one-tree subclass specs.

Personofsecrets · February 20

xylena wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

The only way this argument works is if every other class gets worse as well

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No, DK deserves to have the tools that it has had for 10 years. If you don't get that

Yes, reworking and rebalancing all 7 classes will result in some things being nerfed, other things being buffed. If DK tanking ends up as bad as you guys fear then yes, by all means continue to voice your frustration to the devs. But I don't think "my suboptimal spec is now even less optimal" really means anything. I'll wager all my gold you guy still clear the same content.

By the end of all the reworks, pure DK tanking will be in a much better state than it is now, as will any other conceivable pure DK spec, along with off meta one-tree subclass specs.

No, Ill voice my frustration in the here and now because what Ive done for 10 years is now gone and for no good reason.

Personofsecrets · February 20

So called pure tanking is being brought to us at the cost of established identity and ways of playing. So what good is pure tanking if the changes that enable it destroy identity? Rhetorical.

GloatingSwine · February 20

xylena wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

The only way this argument works is if every other class gets worse as well

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No, DK deserves to have the tools that it has had for 10 years. If you don't get that

Yes, reworking and rebalancing all 7 classes will result in some things being nerfed, other things being buffed. If DK tanking ends up as bad as you guys fear then yes, by all means continue to voice your frustration to the devs. But I don't think "my suboptimal spec is now even less optimal" really means anything. I'll wager all my gold you guy still clear the same content.

By the end of all the reworks, pure DK tanking will be in a much better state than it is now, as will any other conceivable pure DK spec, along with off meta one-tree subclass specs.

I'll be clearing the same content.

But my DK will be retired and I'll use something else.

Also, I doubt DK tank will be in as good a position at the end of the reworks as it is now, because the reasons it is getting worse are self-contained within the specific changes they have made and the slipshod way they have moved passives around without thinking about what they do, how they are activated, and what has value within the game.

Remember, DK is getting a passive for health regen that scales up at low health, in a game where health regen ticks every two seconds and you can press your self heal every one second, and any damage that kills you almost always does so in under two seconds.

That passive is a joke, it is such a joke it should play a laugh track when you click to spend a skill point on it, there is no circumstance in the game where it can possibly be useful, but they haven't thought about changing it over the entire course of the PTS.

Personofsecrets · February 20

GloatingSwine wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

The only way this argument works is if every other class gets worse as well

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No, DK deserves to have the tools that it has had for 10 years. If you don't get that

Yes, reworking and rebalancing all 7 classes will result in some things being nerfed, other things being buffed. If DK tanking ends up as bad as you guys fear then yes, by all means continue to voice your frustration to the devs. But I don't think "my suboptimal spec is now even less optimal" really means anything. I'll wager all my gold you guy still clear the same content.

By the end of all the reworks, pure DK tanking will be in a much better state than it is now, as will any other conceivable pure DK spec, along with off meta one-tree subclass specs.

I'll be clearing the same content.

But my DK will be retired and I'll use something else.

Also, I doubt DK tank will be in as good a position at the end of the reworks as it is now, because the reasons it is getting worse are self-contained within the specific changes they have made and the slipshod way they have moved passives around without thinking about what they do, how they are activated, and what has value within the game.

Remember, DK is getting a passive for health regen that scales up at low health, in a game where health regen ticks every two seconds and you can press your self heal every one second, and any damage that kills you almost always does so in under two seconds.

That passive is a joke, it is such a joke it should play a laugh track when you click to spend a skill point on it, there is no circumstance in the game where it can possibly be useful, but they haven't thought about changing it over the entire course of the PTS.

I only play a single character and it's a DK, so I'm up the creek without a paddle.

I will be refusing to use skill points on the health regen passive, battle roar, or the heavy attack passive as they are such indignities. A mustached cartoon villain couldnt have come up with worse changes.