[PvP] From "Dragonknight Rework" to DK Nerfs... What Happened?

Decimus · January 23

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All they need to do is keep the original weapon damage increase the same for pvp for whip, and have the percentage increase for monsters.

Then let corrosive armor give ult again during its use, and it will at least have some form of usefulness though still not much. And 8 percent damage cap not 12. If we're going to lose the dot damage and all we get is ignore armor and a wee bit of damage mitigation, getting ult gen back is a necessity or its a dead skill. @ZOS_Kevin this is vital

Same for whip. Whip without the weapon damage stack with fury for pvp makes it dead on arrival.

I think the reason for the no ulti gen restriction lies in PvE... it really put the Infinite in Infinite Archives for example if you built enough ulti gen and literally never left Corrosive (or Magma Shell).

No matter whether it's 3% or 12%, when you take damage every 3-4 seconds or something while kiting Marauders it doesn't matter, what matters there is not instantly dying the moment you take damage.

Personofsecrets · January 23

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I honestly have no idea why zos is so afraid to let DK slap, they have no problem letting sorc shine, but dk terrifies them so much, oh the humanity that someone else besides gankers and streakers can compete.

Its very tiring and boring.

It honestly does seem like someone in design just doesn't like DK. I wouldn't be surprised if the designers are the ones who are biased and it's against DK. DK was probably the worst offender of being awesome when the gane was new.

Personofsecrets · January 23

The designers will spend years overloading every class and then make changes like this to DK.

In card game terms, DK is like a vanilla creature with just stats alone while the other classes, especially DLC ones, are the cards with interesting effects and synergies.

DK is like a Grizly Bears from MTG while arcanist is like Bristly Bill. The designers can make exciting and powerful game pieces. They actively decide for DK to not be one of those game pieces. It's a choice, their choice. And that is nuts in this day and age where the vast majority of games are overloading their game pieces.

BardokRedSnow · January 23

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The designers will spend years overloading every class and then make changes like this to DK.

In card game terms, DK is like a vanilla creature with just stats alone while the other classes, especially DLC ones, are the cards with interesting effects and synergies.

DK is like a Grizly Bears from MTG while arcanist is like Bristly Bill. The designers can make exciting and powerful game pieces. They actively decide for DK to not be one of those game pieces. It's a choice, their choice. And that is nuts in this day and age where the vast majority of games are overloading their game pieces.

DK is blue eyes white dragon lol

BardokRedSnow · January 23

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All they need to do is keep the original weapon damage increase the same for pvp for whip, and have the percentage increase for monsters.

Then let corrosive armor give ult again during its use, and it will at least have some form of usefulness though still not much. And 8 percent damage cap not 12. If we're going to lose the dot damage and all we get is ignore armor and a wee bit of damage mitigation, getting ult gen back is a necessity or its a dead skill. @ZOS_Kevin this is vital

Same for whip. Whip without the weapon damage stack with fury for pvp makes it dead on arrival.

I think the reason for the no ulti gen restriction lies in PvE... it really put the Infinite in Infinite Archives for example if you built enough ulti gen and literally never left Corrosive (or Magma Shell).

No matter whether it's 3% or 12%, when you take damage every 3-4 seconds or something while kiting Marauders it doesn't matter, what matters there is not instantly dying the moment you take damage.

I am so tired of getting nerfed for pve

MXVIIDREAM · January 23

I’m fine with everything they’ve done it could go live as it is in the newest update whatever BUT molten whip has to go back to having its weapon/spell damage and stacks I don’t care for the pve passive just add it on and make it 10% with the weapon damage it’ll give the same stuff anyway and it make it a dead on arrival PvP skill NEEDS to change before it goes live and enough fuss on the feedback forum and I think it will

Personofsecrets · January 23

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The designers will spend years overloading every class and then make changes like this to DK.

In card game terms, DK is like a vanilla creature with just stats alone while the other classes, especially DLC ones, are the cards with interesting effects and synergies.

DK is like a Grizly Bears from MTG while arcanist is like Bristly Bill. The designers can make exciting and powerful game pieces. They actively decide for DK to not be one of those game pieces. It's a choice, their choice. And that is nuts in this day and age where the vast majority of games are overloading their game pieces.

DK is blue eyes white dragon lol

And arcanist is whatever this monstrosity of game design is.

MXVIIDREAM · January 23

I didn’t even test corrosive out but I feel like 10% missing the pen but half the ult gain while in corrosive would make it viable

Decimus · January 23

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

This won't be doable next patch and my opinion as this game's top PvP theorycrafter (by results, 52.8 KDR & 75% WR) is that it will see zero use on good builds after it is made near useless defensively

Made me spit my drink out with this

Ah, I missed this gem... do you know why this needs to be pointed out?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: not all feedback is created equal. Sorry.

Just like I wouldn't want a bus driver or school teacher with no credentials in charge of flying a plane I'm on or have any say in the design of the airplane, I don't want uninformed people with no accomplishments, expertise or idea of what they're talking about to have an equal say in providing balance feedback in ESO.

This is why I always say ZOS needs to be very careful about which feedback they listen to - it can't just be whoever is loudest gets what they want like it has historically been... you get things like Hardened Ward nerf on the same patch they introduce subclassing etc and wind up with dead, unused abilities and skill lines.

Now if they put extra emphasis on the (proven, not just chest thumping and bravado there's plenty of that around) strongest players in this game who play multiple classes... you might end up with a well balanced environment in both PvP & PvE.

That's just how it is, bluntly put.

MashmalloMan · January 23

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Everyone always makes that argument when DK is getting nerfed, but no class gets complaints more than DK when its buffed. Is very annoying.

You have to acknowledge your own bias though. As a Sorc main, I'd say the same thing about us, and I'm sure most other class mains might too.

My man, people say a lot of things but going off your example alone, it shows why Zos needs to stop listening to complaints and do some judgement on their own. Sorc has been S tier most of its iteration. DK has not, its received more nerfs than any other class since launch.

At least when it comes to PvP. Everyone knows this. Sorcs have been the longest most problematic class standing aside from arguably Nightblade.

I am the first to make my bias clear, can search it and see me state it, but if the objective is to make DK, then following classes be comparable to subclass builds, this fails with these new changes flat on its face. People will continue to subclass or abandon DK altogether since the new rules make even subclassing with DK to avoid using some of these skills pretty weak also.

No one will use whip in pvp, wrecking blow and dizzy are both stronger. Corrosive is also dead on arrival, theyll use shield wall instead. Any more nerfs like this and I'll just have to wait until the class is buffed again because it wont be even worth playing, its definitely not gonna be competitive with sweat pelican subclass builds like this.

All I'm saying is to provide valuable feedback and solutions that can be actioned upon rather than this victim mentality based on current or past metas that probabaly won't stick around. Being upset is one thing, explaining why you're upset and how things can be better is another. They're not out to get you on a personal level, this entire patch is dedicated to your class after months of developement time and resources from multiple teams, trust me, they want to get it right... however questionable their decisions may seem at times.

To be fair, you have provided some feedback since this original comment, but @Personofsecrets on the other hand is full smoke now! lol

Personally, I would also like to see the ult gen return during the ultimate, it's extremely counter intuitive to punish the best ult class in the game from using their ult or generating more. It doesn't make sense. I understand as Decimus said, it was to balance IA, but they could of been a bit more creative to find an alternative solution. Same way it's kind of ridiculous to disable the flame damage, as if they're not capable of reducing the damage by -50% for example.

They also added a FAT 12~15% monster damage done buff to Whip, but then removed the +300 w/s damage for seemingly no reason. That is a ridiciulous buff just to compensate for pure class vs sub classing and doesn't really belong on either morph imo. If you ask me, they should of sent some of that original w/s damage bonus to Draconic where it's lacking.

The 10% crit damage on Earthen also feels out of place, as if only to appease PVE DPS rather than something that makes sense for the class. The line deserves it, but it's definitely not the type of DPS bonus I'd like to see there. W/S % damage, again would of felt more fitting (since damage done from Avalanche is already covered).

Decimus · January 23

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Everyone always makes that argument when DK is getting nerfed, but no class gets complaints more than DK when its buffed. Is very annoying.

You have to acknowledge your own bias though. As a Sorc main, I'd say the same thing about us, and I'm sure most other class mains might too.

My man, people say a lot of things but going off your example alone, it shows why Zos needs to stop listening to complaints and do some judgement on their own. Sorc has been S tier most of its iteration. DK has not, its received more nerfs than any other class since launch.

At least when it comes to PvP. Everyone knows this. Sorcs have been the longest most problematic class standing aside from arguably Nightblade.

I am the first to make my bias clear, can search it and see me state it, but if the objective is to make DK, then following classes be comparable to subclass builds, this fails with these new changes flat on its face. People will continue to subclass or abandon DK altogether since the new rules make even subclassing with DK to avoid using some of these skills pretty weak also.

No one will use whip in pvp, wrecking blow and dizzy are both stronger. Corrosive is also dead on arrival, theyll use shield wall instead. Any more nerfs like this and I'll just have to wait until the class is buffed again because it wont be even worth playing, its definitely not gonna be competitive with sweat pelican subclass builds like this.

All I'm saying is to provide valuable feedback and solutions that can be actioned upon rather than this victim mentality based on current or past metas that probabaly won't stick around. Being upset is one thing, explaining why you're upset and how things can be better is another. They're not out to get you on a personal level, this entire patch is dedicated to your class after months of developement time and resources from multiple teams, trust me, they want to get it right... however questionable their decisions may seem at times.

To be fair, you have provided some feedback since this original comment, but @Personofsecrets on the other hand is full smoke now! lol

Personally, I would also like to see the ult gen return during the ultimate, it's extremely counter intuitive to punish the best ult class in the game from using their ult or generating more. It doesn't make sense. I understand as Decimus said, it was to balance IA, but they could of been a bit more creative to find an alternative solution. Same way it's kind of ridiculous to disable the flame damage, as if they're not capable of reducing the damage by -50% for example.

They also added a FAT 12~15% monster damage done buff to Whip, but then removed the +300 w/s damage for seemingly no reason. That is a ridiciulous buff just to compensate for pure class vs sub classing and doesn't really belong on either morph imo. If you ask me, they should of sent some of that original w/s damage bonus to Draconic where it's lacking.

The 10% crit damage on Earthen also feels out of place, as if only to appease PVE DPS rather than something that makes sense for the class. The line deserves it, but it's definitely not the type of DPS bonus I'd like to see there. W/S % damage, again would of felt more fitting (since damage done from Avalanche is already covered).

A reverse version of Battle Spirit specific debuffs could work... "ultimate recovery is active while Battle Spirit is enabled" - but this could reduce their design space in any PvX content they might want to design in the future, as well as enable some combos in PvP that have been problematic in the past, *cough* Cryptcanon duo giving you Ice Comet or Northern Storm while you're in Corrosive for example...

Personofsecrets · January 23

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Everyone always makes that argument when DK is getting nerfed, but no class gets complaints more than DK when its buffed. Is very annoying.

You have to acknowledge your own bias though. As a Sorc main, I'd say the same thing about us, and I'm sure most other class mains might too.

My man, people say a lot of things but going off your example alone, it shows why Zos needs to stop listening to complaints and do some judgement on their own. Sorc has been S tier most of its iteration. DK has not, its received more nerfs than any other class since launch.

At least when it comes to PvP. Everyone knows this. Sorcs have been the longest most problematic class standing aside from arguably Nightblade.

I am the first to make my bias clear, can search it and see me state it, but if the objective is to make DK, then following classes be comparable to subclass builds, this fails with these new changes flat on its face. People will continue to subclass or abandon DK altogether since the new rules make even subclassing with DK to avoid using some of these skills pretty weak also.

No one will use whip in pvp, wrecking blow and dizzy are both stronger. Corrosive is also dead on arrival, theyll use shield wall instead. Any more nerfs like this and I'll just have to wait until the class is buffed again because it wont be even worth playing, its definitely not gonna be competitive with sweat pelican subclass builds like this.

All I'm saying is to provide valuable feedback and solutions that can be actioned upon rather than this victim mentality based on current or past metas that probabaly won't stick around. Being upset is one thing, explaining why you're upset and how things can be better is another. They're not out to get you on a personal level, this entire patch is dedicated to your class after months of developement time and resources from multiple teams, trust me, they want to get it right... however questionable their decisions may seem at times.

To be fair, you have provided some feedback since this original comment, but @Personofsecrets on the other hand is full smoke now! lol

Personally, I would also like to see the ult gen return during the ultimate, it's extremely counter intuitive to punish the best ult class in the game from using their ult or generating more. It doesn't make sense. I understand as Decimus said, it was to balance IA, but they could of been a bit more creative to find an alternative solution. Same way it's kind of ridiculous to disable the flame damage, as if they're not capable of reducing the damage by -50% for example.

They also added a FAT 12~15% monster damage done buff to Whip, but then removed the +300 w/s damage for seemingly no reason. That is a ridiciulous buff just to compensate for pure class vs sub classing and doesn't really belong on either morph imo. If you ask me, they should of sent some of that original w/s damage bonus to Draconic where it's lacking.

The 10% crit damage on Earthen also feels out of place, as if only to appease PVE DPS rather than something that makes sense for the class. The line deserves it, but it's definitely not the type of DPS bonus I'd like to see there. W/S % damage, again would of felt more fitting (since damage done from Avalanche is already covered).

I have made specific criticisms and will continue to.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8416938#Comment_8416938

I will make overarching criticisms because they are absolutely deserved.

Lord_Hev · January 23

Ever since DKs dominated in the ancient days being able to live inside stacking batswarms and standard of mights dynamically ult gen produced with talon spams, it has seemingly inflicted ptsd on us all. So they have to immediately nerf DK as soon as they give them any meaningful buffs lol.

J18696 · January 23

I really dislike having to lose 300 weapon damage so pve whip can be more viable it would have been better if this part of whip maybe swapped like

100 wep dam per stack while battle spirit is active and the monster damage while it isnt

Red99 · January 24

The molten whip change is a big nerf for pvp, this skill was fine

s3dulo · January 24

If pure class DK isn't competitive with subclassing meta in PVP after the rework, then you can keep it.

DK needs all the buffs. Whip should keep w/s damage AND there should be added crit damage AND there should be a bonus to penetration for each DK skill lines AND DK should have a self cleanse etc etc

Put out a bold version of the DK. Err on the side of possibly overpowered and if DK is just too much in open world PVP, make an adjustment then. Don't make nerfs because a few people engaged in duels on PTS. It needs to go live to be truly tested.

Putting out a juggernaut version of DK on the live server that melts all of these clones spamming specbow and beetles would be a GOOD THING.

We all know that whatever ends up on the live server can be altered at any time. These class reworks should be disruptive. Pure DK should be as good as any subclass option. The same should be the end goal for Warden next and then Sorc etc.

The goal should be to make pure class totally viable. Not fall short of subclassing but also not render it obsolete.

Keyword here should be BALANCE. And sometimes you have to swing far in the other direction for a period before balance is achieved.

BardokRedSnow · January 24

.

s3dulo wrote: »

If pure class DK isn't competitive with subclassing meta in PVP after the rework, then you can keep it.

DK needs all the buffs. Whip should keep w/s damage AND there should be added crit damage AND there should be a bonus to penetration for each DK skill lines AND DK should have a self cleanse etc etc

Put out a bold version of the DK. Err on the side of possibly overpowered and if DK is just too much in open world PVP, make an adjustment then. Don't make nerfs because a few people engaged in duels on PTS. It needs to go live to be truly tested.

Putting out a juggernaut version of DK on the live server that melts all of these clones spamming specbow and beetles would be a GOOD THING.

We all know that whatever ends up on the live server can be altered at any time. These class reworks should be disruptive. Pure DK should be as good as any subclass option. The same should be the end goal for Warden next and then Sorc etc.

The goal should be to make pure class totally viable. Not fall short of subclassing but also not render it obsolete.

Keyword here should be BALANCE. And sometimes you have to swing far in the other direction for a period before balance is achieved.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Yall should pay special attention to this, is spot on. If y'all dont make more effort to separate pve changes from pvp, the class rework is going to fail right from the start. You said yourselves you weren't looking to make nerfs yet DK has been sharply nerfed with this latest iteration.

Whip wd/sd needs to be restored, corrosive needs ult gen back if we dont get the 8 percent damage cap or dot damage.

MXVIIDREAM · January 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

.

s3dulo wrote: »

If pure class DK isn't competitive with subclassing meta in PVP after the rework, then you can keep it.

DK needs all the buffs. Whip should keep w/s damage AND there should be added crit damage AND there should be a bonus to penetration for each DK skill lines AND DK should have a self cleanse etc etc

Put out a bold version of the DK. Err on the side of possibly overpowered and if DK is just too much in open world PVP, make an adjustment then. Don't make nerfs because a few people engaged in duels on PTS. It needs to go live to be truly tested.

My genuine thoughts and a lot of what I’ve been seeing

Molten whip

needs to be reverted back to how it was weapon damage and spell damage 100 per stack 3 stacks include 3% damage done per stack to monsters keeps roughly the same damage done as before but I genuinely believe the stacking with breath should remain to at least give players the option to use this with breath or else I think people are going to subclass it and use arcanist anyway

avalance

Great great idea, sadly a little ineffective in combat bosses immune phases and just combat in general make this a little redundant I propose 2/3seconds to build stacks 4 seconds of no damage to lose them
Much better uptime for 90% of combat this alone could fix a lot of the underwhelming dk performance in most pve scenarios

blessings of the peak

Adding crit damage to this is a brilliant idea however for the sake of all roles I believe it should be crit damage and crit healing this benefits both support dps and tanks

I wouldn’t mind also seeing 300/600crit resistance rank 1 and 2 added into blessings of the peak, with PvP the way it is and how impen got the treatment it did a while ago I would like to see every class also now have crit resistance worked into them over the refreshes and I think this is the correct skill line to work it into
I think it would go a great way to slowing down some of this insane burst we have reached in PvP
I picked the numbers out of my own experience it’s roughly equal to the champion point tree cp aswel as 600 Crit Resistance ≈ ~9% reduction in incoming crit bonus damage so it seems a fair number to me

Including these changes I’m ecstatic if dk went live exactly as is including the additional pts Notes above

Appreciate you reading

Edit: not sure why the avalanche part went bold as a whole thing sorry about that looking at the code and it’s just avalanche in bold or I’d change it sorry again

MXVIIDREAM · January 24

My genuine thoughts and a lot of what I’ve been seeing

Molten whip

needs to be reverted back to how it was weapon damage and spell damage 100 per stack 3 stacks include 3% damage done per stack to monsters keeps roughly the same damage done as before but I genuinely believe the stacking with breath should remain to at least give players the option to use this with breath or else I think people are going to subclass it and use arcanist anyway

avalance

Great great idea, sadly a little ineffective in combat bosses immune phases and just combat in general make this a little redundant I propose 2/3seconds to build stacks 4 seconds of no damage to lose them
Much better uptime for 90% of combat this alone could fix a lot of the underwhelming dk performance in most pve scenarios

blessings of the peak

Adding crit damage to this is a brilliant idea however for the sake of all roles I believe it should be crit damage and crit healing this benefits both support dps and tanks

I wouldn’t mind also seeing 300/600crit resistance rank 1 and 2 added into blessings of the peak, with PvP the way it is and how impen got the treatment it did a while ago I would like to see every class also now have crit resistance worked into them over the refreshes and I think this is the correct skill line to work it into
I think it would go a great way to slowing down some of this insane burst we have reached in PvP
I picked the numbers out of my own experience it’s roughly equal to the champion point tree cp aswel as 600 Crit Resistance ≈ ~9% reduction in incoming crit bonus damage so it seems a fair number to me

Including these changes I’m ecstatic if dk went live exactly as is including the additional pts Notes above

Appreciate you reading

Edit: not sure why the avalanche part went bold as a whole thing sorry about that looking at the code and it’s just avalanche in bold or I’d change it sorry again

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

.

s3dulo wrote: »

If pure class DK isn't competitive with subclassing meta in PVP after the rework, then you can keep it.

DK needs all the buffs. Whip should keep w/s damage AND there should be added crit damage AND there should be a bonus to penetration for each DK skill lines AND DK should have a self cleanse etc etc

Put out a bold version of the DK. Err on the side of possibly overpowered and if DK is just too much in open world PVP, make an adjustment then. Don't make nerfs because a few people engaged in duels on PTS. It needs to go live to be truly tested.

Putting out a juggernaut version of DK on the live server that melts all of these clones spamming specbow and beetles would be a GOOD THING.

We all know that whatever ends up on the live server can be altered at any time. These class reworks should be disruptive. Pure DK should be as good as any subclass option. The same should be the end goal for Warden next and then Sorc etc.

The goal should be to make pure class totally viable. Not fall short of subclassing but also not render it obsolete.

Keyword here should be BALANCE. And sometimes you have to swing far in the other direction for a period before balance is achieved.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Yall should pay special attention to this, is spot on. If y'all dont make more effort to separate pve changes from pvp, the class rework is going to fail right from the start. You said yourselves you weren't looking to make nerfs yet DK has been sharply nerfed with this latest iteration.

Whip wd/sd needs to be restored, corrosive needs ult gen back if we dont get the 8 percent damage cap or dot damage.

shark_goomba · January 24

Earthen Heart, right now and especially with the PTS updates, is just a far inferior version of Storm calling. Storm has a better brutality buff (1 morph great for solo, another for group), better armor buff, and it also has access to streak. Passives are also miles better.

Please add more utility, differentiation, and power to Earthen Heart, or it will go mostly unused in favor of storm calling. It is still simply too weak and useless. Corro was nerfed way too hard recently, armor buff should be stronger. Igenous weapons should have 1 morph that is better for solo play, lets say the duration morph is on YOURSELF only, cheaper, and adds a minor buff as well or something, while the other morph continues to be aoe and is as. the shield and new stonefist are still kinda like who would use that other than some PVE groups? Petrify needs to be instant again, its already a melee ability it doesnt need to be even weaker with an easy to counter telegraph.

Please consider buffing/giving some more love to earthen heart, just as ardent and draconic have received, which I am thankful for.

Personofsecrets · January 24

I will never understand the state of mind that game designers are in. They just must be playing a different game.

BardokRedSnow · January 25

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I will never understand the state of mind that game designers are in. They just must be playing a different game.

I (think) I can understand it judging off the changes they've made to some of the skills like standard of might for instance. The devs are focused mostly on the pve side of things because it's easier to test for one, and for two we all know that's where the majority of the money is.

They need PvP as an anchor for new fans who will become future veteran players, but ultimately its not where they make their revenue. It could be but the focus of the game has moved elsewhere since a long time ago.

Housing is the other massive moneymaker. So I would assume especially with downsizing that they have not as many employees that focus on pvp, which is why there's a contrast between player knowledge and developer knowledge, and their only way to really interact with us is here, and reddit etc. Reddit is infamously a terrible place for pretty much getting an understanding of anything, and this site is too small of a community to accurately gauge what fans think they want.

The surveys help but still from their perspective its a collection of vocal minorities calling for different things, which is why I think more separation of pve vs pvp changes needs to be normalized like in the case of whip which rn is the biggest example.

Personofsecrets · January 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I will never understand the state of mind that game designers are in. They just must be playing a different game.

I (think) I can understand it judging off the changes they've made to some of the skills like standard of might for instance. The devs are focused mostly on the pve side of things because it's easier to test for one, and for two we all know that's where the majority of the money is.

They need PvP as an anchor for new fans who will become future veteran players, but ultimately its not where they make their revenue. It could be but the focus of the game has moved elsewhere since a long time ago.

Housing is the other massive moneymaker. So I would assume especially with downsizing that they have not as many employees that focus on pvp, which is why there's a contrast between player knowledge and developer knowledge, and their only way to really interact with us is here, and reddit etc. Reddit is infamously a terrible place for pretty much getting an understanding of anything, and this site is too small of a community to accurately gauge what fans think they want.

The surveys help but still from their perspective its a collection of vocal minorities calling for different things, which is why I think more separation of pve vs pvp changes needs to be normalized like in the case of whip which rn is the biggest example.

One consideration that I'd like to put forward is that PvE balance doesn't really matter. For example, people have written that Magma got the ultimate generation nerf due to infinite archive. But I don't really understand why a designer would care how much someone wastes their life in the archive.

Regarding trials and especially dungeons, there is higher damage than before, but I again don't see a reason why that is a big deal. The vast majority of players won't even see what breaking a bosses mechanics due to damage even looks like. Plus the PvE balance issue doesn't really hurt anyone. Who is the victim if damage numbers are too high in PvE?

You are likely spot on about the contrast between player and developer knowledge. A developer can't get into all of the niche corner cases that their handy work is impacting no more than I can understand what a lot of players are doing. Still though, as it was written elsewhere, why can't the designers just make a DK that "slaps?"

Again, they know how to design powerful game pieces. With DK, they are choosing for it to be substandard.

Vulkunne · January 25

Nothing worth doing is going to be easy or over quickly.

wilsonwjesse · January 25

I agree with OP. You can't just balance the lines and make DK lines synergistic. You need to make each skill line OP on it's own for whatever you want to to: DD, Tanking, Healing, or PvP.

Once the other classes get reworked they can be power crept as well. Once everything is power crept we can nerf in unison.

However, I think we should also remove the restrictive damage type buffs and just buff in other ways that don't restrict builds to fire and AoE/DoTs.

BattleAxe · January 25

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

However, I think we should also remove the restrictive damage type buffs and just buff in other ways that don't restrict builds to fire and AoE/DoTs.

Problem with removing those passives from the classes for example removing the 5% flame damage severely hurts the dragonknight in the sense all their damage skills deal flame damage. A large number of dk skills apart from about 3 skills are aoe/dot. This does bring up another point I seen made in another thread of skills should have tags of dmg elements and dmg type (direct, aoe, dot, & single). Also it’s far easier to adjust those %s versus directly changing the numbers on the skills themselves.

MXVIIDREAM · January 25

Idk if I’m being stupid but what thread are these changes listed on I’ve seen them on a post now I can’t find them again

BattleAxe · January 25

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Idk if I’m being stupid but what thread are these changes listed on I’ve seen them on a post now I can’t find them again

If u refer to wut they are changing for week 3 it’s the post about dragonknight power level other than that I’m not sure of any other changes.

AdmiralDigby · January 25

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All they need to do is keep the original weapon damage increase the same for pvp for whip, and have the percentage increase for monsters.

Then let corrosive armor give ult again during its use, and it will at least have some form of usefulness though still not much. And 8 percent damage cap not 12. If we're going to lose the dot damage and all we get is ignore armor and a wee bit of damage mitigation, getting ult gen back is a necessity or its a dead skill. @ZOS_Kevin this is vital

Same for whip. Whip without the weapon damage stack with fury for pvp makes it dead on arrival.

I think the reason for the no ulti gen restriction lies in PvE... it really put the Infinite in Infinite Archives for example if you built enough ulti gen and literally never left Corrosive (or Magma Shell).

No matter whether it's 3% or 12%, when you take damage every 3-4 seconds or something while kiting Marauders it doesn't matter, what matters there is not instantly dying the moment you take damage.

I put a suggestion in to reduce the ult cost of Magma (maybe even corrosive) which would make the ability able to be cast more often. However would still cause periods of time where you can't have it up. Circumventing the PVE issue.

Decimus · January 25

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All they need to do is keep the original weapon damage increase the same for pvp for whip, and have the percentage increase for monsters.

Then let corrosive armor give ult again during its use, and it will at least have some form of usefulness though still not much. And 8 percent damage cap not 12. If we're going to lose the dot damage and all we get is ignore armor and a wee bit of damage mitigation, getting ult gen back is a necessity or its a dead skill. @ZOS_Kevin this is vital

Same for whip. Whip without the weapon damage stack with fury for pvp makes it dead on arrival.

I think the reason for the no ulti gen restriction lies in PvE... it really put the Infinite in Infinite Archives for example if you built enough ulti gen and literally never left Corrosive (or Magma Shell).

No matter whether it's 3% or 12%, when you take damage every 3-4 seconds or something while kiting Marauders it doesn't matter, what matters there is not instantly dying the moment you take damage.

I put a suggestion in to reduce the ult cost of Magma (maybe even corrosive) which would make the ability able to be cast more often. However would still cause periods of time where you can't have it up. Circumventing the PVE issue.

That could work, and could be a pretty big reduction too like 200->125 ultimate or something like that considering how much power has been lost on this ability... but I'd rather them revert Corrosive to be an impactful defensive tool again rather than a pointless one that only works in 1v1s/Xv1s and is a sub-par option in those as well compared to Incap, Crescent etc.