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Ball Groups Ruin PVP
PhxOldGamer68
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The players individually die like all of us when not in a ball group. But when they get together with ball buddies, they have unlimited cross heals, constant colossus with DarkCon or Agony with Vici Death, able to endlessly run around towers, boulders, keep walls, and yet smack you with strong and constant damage. We have all dealt with this for 10 years yet ZOS still won’t limit the cross heals and or endless buffs. Vengeance was great to be able to knock down these known ball groups. Equal playing field was great.
PSN NA/EU: DesertDweller99
PC NA: KaktusKing
PC NA: KaktusKing
18
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ec250✭This is the reason why GH pop is declining. EP primarily hangs out at Arrius during primetime as they just don't want to deal with either ball grps or the smaller sweat grps. The guys that love the current GH mechanics are the vocal minority, I hope Vengeance comes back soon.7 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grey Host: Great During the Day, Frustrating at Prime Time
Grey Host can be excellent PvP during the day, when most ball groups aren’t running. That’s when the game feels the way it should—organized but readable fights, far better performance, and PvP that actually feels like an MMORPG instead of an AoE stress test.
The problem is prime time at night.
During peak evening hours, Grey Host becomes extremely frustrating due to the dominance of ball groups. Excessive healing, stacked buffs, constant purges, extreme movement speed, and long-range pulls combine into a playstyle that the game continues to enable and protect. The result is predictable:
New and casual players are instantly deleted
Server performance degrades significantly
Pugs stop grouping, spread out, and eventually log off
I even played Grey Host last night, and the difference between daytime and prime time couldn’t be clearer. When ball groups take over, frustration spikes, zone chat fills with complaints, and the overall quality of gameplay drops sharply.
This is why Blackreach declined. It used to be a place where players could avoid large ball-group gameplay and experiment with unique builds and small organized groups. Once ball-group behavior and toxic playstyles spilled over, that purpose disappeared. But Blackreach is not the root issue—Grey Host and ball groups are.
You don’t need to stack into a ball to be organized, but it’s impossible to deny that ball groups are—and have been—the optimal setup for years. As long as that remains true, prime-time PvP will continue to push players out.
We’re not asking for easy mode. We’re asking for functional, playable PvP where multiple styles can exist without being instantly invalidated.
Until ball-group mechanics are meaningfully addressed, Grey Host will continue to feel great during the day—and broken at night.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables8 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is the reason why GH pop is declining. EP primarily hangs out at Arrius during primetime as they just don't want to deal with either ball grps or the smaller sweat grps. The guys that love the current GH mechanics are the vocal minority, I hope Vengeance comes back soon.
Vengence is not the answer, honestly its to close to a FPS fantasy game. Remember this is an MMORPG and people play these games mainly to level and build charactors. Vengence will be fine for a few months soon it would fade just like No CP did.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables4 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I've only ever played this game to PvP. The grind and prep demands have pushed me out of the game at times. Gamer demographics have changed since the 00s. One of the major selling points of Vengeance is that anyone can immediately jump in and PvP on a level playing field.Remember this is an MMORPG and people play these games mainly to level and build charactorsPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grey Host: Great During the Day, Frustrating at Prime Time
Grey Host can be excellent PvP during the day, when most ball groups aren’t running. That’s when the game feels the way it should—organized but readable fights, far better performance, and PvP that actually feels like an MMORPG instead of an AoE stress test.
The problem is prime time at night.
During peak evening hours, Grey Host becomes extremely frustrating due to the dominance of ball groups. Excessive healing, stacked buffs, constant purges, extreme movement speed, and long-range pulls combine into a playstyle that the game continues to enable and protect. The result is predictable:
New and casual players are instantly deleted
Server performance degrades significantly
Pugs stop grouping, spread out, and eventually log off
I even played Grey Host last night, and the difference between daytime and prime time couldn’t be clearer. When ball groups take over, frustration spikes, zone chat fills with complaints, and the overall quality of gameplay drops sharply.
This is why Blackreach declined. It used to be a place where players could avoid large ball-group gameplay and experiment with unique builds and small organized groups. Once ball-group behavior and toxic playstyles spilled over, that purpose disappeared. But Blackreach is not the root issue—Grey Host and ball groups are.
You don’t need to stack into a ball to be organized, but it’s impossible to deny that ball groups are—and have been—the optimal setup for years. As long as that remains true, prime-time PvP will continue to push players out.
We’re not asking for easy mode. We’re asking for functional, playable PvP where multiple styles can exist without being instantly invalidated.
Until ball-group mechanics are meaningfully addressed, Grey Host will continue to feel great during the day—and broken at night.
This has been my experience the past few days as well (PC EU). Pre-ball group there were decent flowing fights with enough push and pull to enable some good/fun PvP that everyone participating in got to enjoy.
As soon as a ball group logged on though, the lag became extremely noticeable, and the map just became unplayable as the ball group ran over everyone else.
This really came to a flash point for me a few days ago where a specific EP ball group was zerg surfing the pop locked EP faction stack to help EP try and gate the map despite the other alliances having 2 bars at most, it was honestly such a pathetic sight to watch this ball group chase down solo zerg players (not even skilled solo players) 1 by 1 and full ult-dump them with no counterplay (whoever the ball group targeted, had no chance, they just got deleted). Such behaviour removed any lingering shred of respect I had left for those who play in ball groups, especially recent/new ball groups that have frequently demonstrated this kind of toxic behaviour/play pattern of targeting those who they know cannot fight back.6 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Grey Host: Great During the Day, Frustrating at Prime Time
Grey Host can be excellent PvP during the day, when most ball groups aren’t running. That’s when the game feels the way it should—organized but readable fights, far better performance, and PvP that actually feels like an MMORPG instead of an AoE stress test.
The problem is prime time at night.
During peak evening hours, Grey Host becomes extremely frustrating due to the dominance of ball groups. Excessive healing, stacked buffs, constant purges, extreme movement speed, and long-range pulls combine into a playstyle that the game continues to enable and protect. The result is predictable:
New and casual players are instantly deleted
Server performance degrades significantly
Pugs stop grouping, spread out, and eventually log off
I even played Grey Host last night, and the difference between daytime and prime time couldn’t be clearer. When ball groups take over, frustration spikes, zone chat fills with complaints, and the overall quality of gameplay drops sharply.
This is why Blackreach declined. It used to be a place where players could avoid large ball-group gameplay and experiment with unique builds and small organized groups. Once ball-group behavior and toxic playstyles spilled over, that purpose disappeared. But Blackreach is not the root issue—Grey Host and ball groups are.
You don’t need to stack into a ball to be organized, but it’s impossible to deny that ball groups are—and have been—the optimal setup for years. As long as that remains true, prime-time PvP will continue to push players out.
We’re not asking for easy mode. We’re asking for functional, playable PvP where multiple styles can exist without being instantly invalidated.
Until ball-group mechanics are meaningfully addressed, Grey Host will continue to feel great during the day—and broken at night.
This has been my experience the past few days as well (PC EU). Pre-ball group there were decent flowing fights with enough push and pull to enable some good/fun PvP that everyone participating in got to enjoy.
As soon as a ball group logged on though, the lag became extremely noticeable, and the map just became unplayable as the ball group ran over everyone else.
This really came to a flash point for me a few days ago where a specific EP ball group was zerg surfing the pop locked EP faction stack to help EP try and gate the map despite the other alliances having 2 bars at most, it was honestly such a pathetic sight to watch this ball group chase down solo zerg players (not even skilled solo players) 1 by 1 and full ult-dump them with no counterplay (whoever the ball group targeted, had no chance, they just got deleted). Such behaviour removed any lingering shred of respect I had left for those who play in ball groups, especially recent/new ball groups that have frequently demonstrated this kind of toxic behaviour/play pattern of targeting those who they know cannot fight back.
Save your animus for that particular group for engaging in sleazy behavior (which I definitely do agree is sleazy). If you're generalizing their actions to every ballgroup ever created then you're trafficking in stereotypes and that is never good.
For example, when I lead raids I will threaten to kick players from the raid if they go rogue hunting down random solos away from Crown. And I certainly am never wasting precious raid time and resources ult-dumping them. Ain't nobody got time for that if you are an actually serious group that is looking for challenging fights (aka the only fights worth having).0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »The players individually die like all of us when not in a ball group. But when they get together with ball buddies, they have unlimited cross heals, constant colossus with DarkCon or Agony with Vici Death, able to endlessly run around towers, boulders, keep walls, and yet smack you with strong and constant damage. We have all dealt with this for 10 years yet ZOS still won’t limit the cross heals and or endless buffs. Vengeance was great to be able to knock down these known ball groups. Equal playing field was great.
For several years now, I know for a fact that ... several of us have shared our similar concerns on here. I believe ZOS has tried to take some action to correct this issue however it never seems to be enough. It makes me suspect that all the energy in the world would not be enough. That includes continuing to complain on the forums about this. Therefore, for those who feel the same and are up to it - we no longer complain about ball groups. We no longer quit logging in or quit playing because of them. We learn how to become bombers, gankers, bruisers and the walls just got 10 feet higher. Join me now in taking the fight to them. That said, please don't do anything that is not completely agreeable to TOS or anything else that is not in good taste.
But the time for trying to reason with them has come to an end because no one is listening, not here or in game either. From this moment on, players on our side, there are two types - Those who choose the 'status quo' and those of us who learn to stand up to them, in a smart and meaningful way, even if you fail. The choice is yours. Talking won't fix this. This is not just a ZOS issue; it is a player issue. And sadly, these guys won't respect others unless you give them a reason to. Choose wisely. And if you feel bad, just remember, some of us are out in the field too. We are watching what they do and helping where we can, again all in accordance with TOS and in good taste. Let them keep their ball groups. For everyone else, Good hunting.Edited by Vulkunne on 23 December 2025 19:55Today Victory is mines. Long Live the Imperial Empire. -Grand Admiral Vulkunne1 -
ec250✭This is the reason why GH pop is declining. EP primarily hangs out at Arrius during primetime as they just don't want to deal with either ball grps or the smaller sweat grps. The guys that love the current GH mechanics are the vocal minority, I hope Vengeance comes back soon.
Vengence is not the answer, honestly its to close to a FPS fantasy game. Remember this is an MMORPG and people play these games mainly to level and build charactors. Vengence will be fine for a few months soon it would fade just like No CP did.
I hear what you are saying, but I'd take Veng over current state GH any day of the week.3 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
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I've only ever played this game to PvP. The grind and prep demands have pushed me out of the game at times. Gamer demographics have changed since the 00s. One of the major selling points of Vengeance is that anyone can immediately jump in and PvP on a level playing field.Remember this is an MMORPG and people play these games mainly to level and build charactors
One of the major selling points of GH is that there IS a learning curve and people have to work at it to be good. Lot's of other games you can jump into with your friends or family with no learning curve.
It's really strange that someone who played GH style PvP for a decade are now lobbying to have it removed from the game. Especially when you haven't been in game basically at all for about 2 years.2 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the primary reason why ball groups are horrible in grey host is because of low pop caps
pop caps in grey host are 120/faction, a ball group is around 8-12 people (assuming 12 people, thats 10% of your entire factions population)
then due to the force multipliers you need 30-40 people to even try to combat a ball group (say it takes 3x more players to kill a ball group, thats 36 players of your faction trying to fight the ball group, or almost 1/3 of your entire pop cap)
when they did the stress test with really high pop caps, that significantly alleviated the pain of ball groups cause you could much easier build a huge force to wipe them
in the current environment i absolutely agree that ball groups ruin pvp, as there is almost no way to counter them without 4-5x as many players, especially if they are running around the upper keep where its difficult to siege themplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »the primary reason why ball groups are horrible in grey host is because of low pop caps
pop caps in grey host are 120/faction, a ball group is around 8-12 people (assuming 12 people, thats 10% of your entire factions population)
then due to the force multipliers you need 30-40 people to even try to combat a ball group (say it takes 3x more players to kill a ball group, thats 36 players of your faction trying to fight the ball group, or almost 1/3 of your entire pop cap)
when they did the stress test with really high pop caps, that significantly alleviated the pain of ball groups cause you could much easier build a huge force to wipe them
in the current environment i absolutely agree that ball groups ruin pvp, as there is almost no way to counter them without 4-5x as many players, especially if they are running around the upper keep where its difficult to siege them
A skilled tower 1vXer can keep 8-12 random players occupied chasing them around a resource as well, using LOS and quick changes in direction to their advantage.
The players in the ballgroup are better players than the random zone players that are chasing them. Are you expecting 12 random zone players to be able to easily kill 12 coordinated players, who play together many times per week for sometimes years at a time, in complementary builds? That would be completely upside-down balance.2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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What's the ideal value for X in a game that allows for 12vX then?YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Are you expecting 12 random zone players to be able to easily kill 12 coordinated players, who play together many times per week for sometimes years at a time, in complementary builds? That would be completely upside-down balance.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP1 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »the primary reason why ball groups are horrible in grey host is because of low pop caps
pop caps in grey host are 120/faction, a ball group is around 8-12 people (assuming 12 people, thats 10% of your entire factions population)
then due to the force multipliers you need 30-40 people to even try to combat a ball group (say it takes 3x more players to kill a ball group, thats 36 players of your faction trying to fight the ball group, or almost 1/3 of your entire pop cap)
when they did the stress test with really high pop caps, that significantly alleviated the pain of ball groups cause you could much easier build a huge force to wipe them
in the current environment i absolutely agree that ball groups ruin pvp, as there is almost no way to counter them without 4-5x as many players, especially if they are running around the upper keep where its difficult to siege them
A skilled tower 1vXer can keep 8-12 random players occupied chasing them around a resource as well, using LOS and quick changes in direction to their advantage.
The players in the ballgroup are better players than the random zone players that are chasing them. Are you expecting 12 random zone players to be able to easily kill 12 coordinated players, who play together many times per week for sometimes years at a time, in complementary builds? That would be completely upside-down balance.
A skilled 1vXer surviving 8-12 players is the exception and not the rule and the randoms are usually not really randoms but cherrypicket low cp/hp PvE players. Some players getting 1vXed barely do anything at all. If the players were really randoms of average skill you couldnt even 1v3 (nor 1v2 if it is random real PvPer).
For every succeded 1vX there are usually multiple failed and they often still get zerged if the opponents get too many.
Ballgroups consistently win against multiple times their numbers. Nobody is expecting random zone players to win a 12v12 against a ballgroup but often there are not enaugh randoms on a pop locket server to zerg down the ballgroup and with opponents being most of the opponent faction they are also not cherrypicket anymore but include also good players.
Tower 1vXer hug the wall much more closely than ballgroups and barely get hit while ballgroups getting much more dmg just outheal it.
I have rarely seen 1vXer after 2020 while ballgroups have become much more common .PC EU4 -
Cooperharley✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »The players individually die like all of us when not in a ball group. But when they get together with ball buddies, they have unlimited cross heals, constant colossus with DarkCon or Agony with Vici Death, able to endlessly run around towers, boulders, keep walls, and yet smack you with strong and constant damage. We have all dealt with this for 10 years yet ZOS still won’t limit the cross heals and or endless buffs. Vengeance was great to be able to knock down these known ball groups. Equal playing field was great.
Yep.
This is why I'm in favor of Vengeance big time - I'm willing to have less build customization myself in order to avoid things like this & unkillable tanks. Sours the experience big time for myself & friends alike. Obviously don't want Gray Host replaced, I'd like them to be updated in parallel, but I will happily never touch Gray Host again & play a ton of Vengeance.PC-NA | @Cooperharley3 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
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What's the ideal value for X in a game that allows for 12vX then?YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Are you expecting 12 random zone players to be able to easily kill 12 coordinated players, who play together many times per week for sometimes years at a time, in complementary builds? That would be completely upside-down balance.
This was my question in Vegeance as well. There *were* a handful of coordinated groups playing in this last event. And they were doing extremely well fighting out numbered because they had the sense to know when to pull back, take cover, and choose when to expose themselves. It's hard to say if they were technically fighting ratios of 5-to-1 when they had the sense to really just make it a series of 1-to-1s. But a lot of people have become complacent and just expect to be able to walk out in the open, take fifty attackers right to the chin, and still stayed topped off at full health. Then they die, cry that it's just a numbers game (which it is - but they are looking at the wrong numbers. It's more about how many applied brain cells are competing
) and complain that it's not a fair mode of play. Edited by Sluggy on 26 December 2025 22:335 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I always see this nonsense argument comparing ball groups to 1vXers, (and imo it's nothing but a distraction argument, done in bad faith) but the truth about the comparison is this:
1vXers:
- Always, ALWAYS need/use external LoS to reduce incoming damage from anything higher than 2v1 down to a 1v1 or 2v1 (even against bad players). This is basic 1vX tactics and those who don't follow these tactics end up eating dirt very frequently.
- Always need to cherry pick their battles, taking on significantly less skilled opponents than they are, 99% of the time also needing to pick opponents that are also in significantly weaker builds than they are as well as less skilled.
- Always need to reduce the individual fights of their "X" down to a series of 1v1's or 1v2's.
Ball groups:
- Almost never need external LoS to mitigate damage, since they can just out-heal/shield 99% of incoming damage in this game (including the majority of their own damage).
- Rarely need to cherry pick their battles/targets/victims, outside of <1% of possible scenarios in the game.
- Never need to reduce the fights down to 1v1 equivalents because the groups power (both offense and defense) exceeds the 1v1 power balance by an absurd rate.For those who don't know, LoS is the single strongest mitigation mechanic in ESO, bar none (not even streak/mobility or block is as strong as LoS and only stacking mechanics get close due to how absurd ZOS has allowed those to get for groups over the years). This is because LoS prevents targeting in the first place. LoS is, for all intents and purposes, 100% mitigation while still keeping you within combat range. This is why:
- NB invis used to be so problematic (is so problematic in vengeance), because it actually used to be LoS, on demand, with little to no downside/thought/skill to use it.
- Xers depend on it to be able to get their X against anything more than a 1v2 or 1v3
- Good PuGs never chase Xers into towers or around other LoS obstacles.
The disparity of power that a ball group has, especially compared to the average player/build, would be the equivalent of a highly skilled Xer fighting a group of unskilled new players on new characters with zero gear. A skilled Xer can fight off dozens of such players near indefinitely and with minimal need for any LoS. The difference is ball groups have this same power disparity, but not with new players with zero gear, but compared to a good player on a good build, but then also magnifies that disparity again, against bad players on bad builds.
This doesn't mean that 12 PuGs should always be able to beat an organized 12 person comp group, that's just a bad faith argument because that's like trying to argue that a bad player on a bad build should always win a 1v1 against a top tier duelist on a meta dueling build, but the thing is, those 12 PuGs should not be fish in a barrel for ball groups either, especially if they are good players on good builds, just not group builds.
Just like how if a skilled player shows up, the Xer will likely either need to run away or they will die, or there's a chance for PuGs to win if the Xer messes up (gets too greedy, etc.), or using the dueling example if the players are of equal skill or build, there needs to be this opportunity to win. Currently, for PuGs against an organized comp group (even if the PuGs use tactics that are supposed to be effective against ball groups) this opportunity doesn't exist because the power disparity is simply too much that even the supposed counters aren't enough.4 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »the primary reason why ball groups are horrible in grey host is because of low pop caps
pop caps in grey host are 120/faction, a ball group is around 8-12 people (assuming 12 people, thats 10% of your entire factions population)
then due to the force multipliers you need 30-40 people to even try to combat a ball group (say it takes 3x more players to kill a ball group, thats 36 players of your faction trying to fight the ball group, or almost 1/3 of your entire pop cap)
when they did the stress test with really high pop caps, that significantly alleviated the pain of ball groups cause you could much easier build a huge force to wipe them
in the current environment i absolutely agree that ball groups ruin pvp, as there is almost no way to counter them without 4-5x as many players, especially if they are running around the upper keep where its difficult to siege them
A skilled tower 1vXer can keep 8-12 random players occupied chasing them around a resource as well, using LOS and quick changes in direction to their advantage.
The players in the ballgroup are better players than the random zone players that are chasing them. Are you expecting 12 random zone players to be able to easily kill 12 coordinated players, who play together many times per week for sometimes years at a time, in complementary builds? That would be completely upside-down balance.
not really the point i was making
a coordinated group should theoretically be able to take on 3x as many uncoordinated enemies, but the problem is the pop caps
40 players is literally 1/3 of all the players that can even be in the server at one time on grey host right now, that is a huge significant fraction that is stuck trying to take out a ball group while the rest of the other factions can just further steamroll the one faction trying to combat a ball group
basically a losing battle at that point when theres a ball group and being double teamed as your faction will be insanely outnumbered at that point
the ball groups faction is likely to stick to and support the ball group, which further fuels the need for more players, and if they arent going after team 3, then likely team 3 will want to get in on the action too because they dont want to pvdoor the team 2 keeps that are just stacking on the ball group
team 3 might not have the people to back cap or combat the people of team 2, which then leads to double teaming team 1 (your faction)
because of the low pop caps, this is a vicious cycle that eventually happens with every faction, even 1 ball group right now is enough to completely disrupt the map and push an entire faction to one spot just about, which is partially why the map feels dead so much even in grey host because too many people are chasing 1vXs or ball groupsplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities3