Vengeance starts on the 3rd. So, no Cyrodiil?

Durham · December 5

PvP isn’t just about builds or copying some random streamer and suddenly becoming good. There is a learning curve, and that’s actually one of the things that has always made ESO PvP fun and rewarding. I always tell newer players: dueling is the fastest way to improve. That’s how you grow your mechanics, timing, awareness, and decision-making.

And Cyrodiil isn’t about the solo Nightblade montages people romanticize. If you want to get better, you join a PvP guild, hop into Discord, learn from others, and experience what organized PvP actually feels like. When you don’t join Discord or a PvP guild and you only run in random pugs, the experience feels completely different—and a lot of players end up quitting before they ever understand the depth the game can have.

We all know the broken parts of PvP:

Ball groups are overtuned

Speed is absurd, especially with all the LOS abuse

Players running circles around trees, rocks, and boxes to stay alive

Healing is overtuned

Proc sets have always been a problem

These issues are not new. They’re well-documented. They’re fixable.

But instead of addressing the core problems and building PvP systems that actually support PvP guilds—like guild leaderboards, meaningful guild-versus-guild incentives, or better tools for organized play—we’re getting a PvP mode that feels more like an FPS loadout fantasy game than an MMORPG PvP experience.

ESO’s PvP has depth. In this version, it does not. Without depth, it becomes boring very fast.

Feljax · December 5

Durham wrote: »

Healing is overtuned

I wish the game had been created with the mindset that healing is only effective if you put a lot of focus towards it in your build with a tradeoff of much lower damage output. This would've made pure healers useful and it would've inherently avoided this massive "everyone can heal" problem. I, personally enjoy being a healer in PvP. But, with everyone able to heal with cross heals flying everywhere, a pure healer in this game is less useful and on top of that, when healing gets nerfed, a pure healer's worth goes down even more.

Major_Mangle · December 5

And Cyrodiil isn’t about the solo Nightblade montages people romanticize. If you want to get better, you join a PvP guild, hop into Discord, learn from others, and experience what organized PvP actually feels like. When you don’t join Discord or a PvP guild and you only run in random pugs, the experience feels completely different—and a lot of players end up quitting before they ever understand the depth the game can have.

I honestly find this to be the biggest issue with the modern MMO audience (mainly ESO tbh). Generally speaking the unwillingness to interact and learn from others is mindboggling. People would rather complain that invest some time and put some effort into improving (this goes for PvP and PvE). ESO is one of the easiest MMO´s to catch up with as well, which says more about the ESO audience than anything else.

ShutUpitsRed · December 5

Durham wrote: »

And Cyrodiil isn’t about the solo Nightblade montages people romanticize. If you want to get better, you join a PvP guild, hop into Discord, learn from others, and experience what organized PvP actually feels like. When you don’t join Discord or a PvP guild and you only run in random pugs, the experience feels completely different—and a lot of players end up quitting before they ever understand the depth the game can have.

THIS. People act like they should be able to just load in and do this and cry foul when they discover how the game *actually* works.

skinnymini · December 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Something yall dont seem to realize is that what people want from pvp is for people to be killable, including ballgroups. Or maybe y'all do but are going about it the wrong way. As was said by @Durham vengeance isnt going to stop your balancing act, its only going to expose the problems of pvp with the core classes from the start. Sets gave us potential to close the gap between our chosen class and the op ones, and subclassing somewhat has that potential also, but your solution to both lag and revitalizing pvp numbers is a lot simpler.

Mym used to be so much fun, and I believe the last time it was, was during your release of plaguebreak, hrothgars, and Dark Convergence, glitches and problems aside, because it was a damage meta and people were killable. You guys moved in a bad direction when you gave vigor minor resolve, and nerfed the damage perks in the blue tree, making everyone much tankier. Between that, nerfing damage sets that can kill ballgroups like plaguebreak and azura's blight, and scribing skills adding even more healing potential, the game got staler because people stopped dying, making the pvp more frustrating and also attributing to the lag in the game because ballgroups spamming skills and running around keeps for sometimes hours was killing the server. The longer combat goes, the more unstable the game gets per person using skills.

In summation you guys really need to kill healing potential at least by 20 percent, if not 30. Limit heal stacking, unnerf sets that can kill the ballgroups, and when new players complain about the end game pvp being too hard to get into, you need to ignore them because clearly they're not sticking around when it is more accessible. These changes are a lot easier than trying to fundamentally change pvp, and even with vengeance you will still need to cut healing if you really want it to be successful and maintain its audience long term.

Which at this rate I can tell you, it won't.

tldr: nerf heals, bring back the damage meta. More fun for everyone, vengeance or greyhost.

But you can kill ball groups? A well timed negate with a roa/vd bomber? You can't x an organised group. I play in a ballgroup and we are definitely killable.
We're in a crit meta as of this patch, so nerfing heals ain't gonna help, If anything they're needed, I would rather out heal than be instantly wiped by a specbow, null arca pop.

shadyjane62 · December 8

Radiate77 wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Personally, I'm against Vengeance replacing normal Cyrodiil.

I'd rather have Vengeance Cyro than Subclassed Cyro.

This. A thousand times this.^^^^^^^^^

We couldn’t Subclass last Vengeance, and the campaign was weaker for it.

I think you mean you were weaker for the campaign. Subclassing would have given an unfair edge against someone like me that remained pure.

The point of Vengeance is we are all equal in the gear and weapons we use, that skill is what counts.

Durham · December 8

skinnymini wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Something yall dont seem to realize is that what people want from pvp is for people to be killable, including ballgroups. Or maybe y'all do but are going about it the wrong way. As was said by @Durham vengeance isnt going to stop your balancing act, its only going to expose the problems of pvp with the core classes from the start. Sets gave us potential to close the gap between our chosen class and the op ones, and subclassing somewhat has that potential also, but your solution to both lag and revitalizing pvp numbers is a lot simpler.

Mym used to be so much fun, and I believe the last time it was, was during your release of plaguebreak, hrothgars, and Dark Convergence, glitches and problems aside, because it was a damage meta and people were killable. You guys moved in a bad direction when you gave vigor minor resolve, and nerfed the damage perks in the blue tree, making everyone much tankier. Between that, nerfing damage sets that can kill ballgroups like plaguebreak and azura's blight, and scribing skills adding even more healing potential, the game got staler because people stopped dying, making the pvp more frustrating and also attributing to the lag in the game because ballgroups spamming skills and running around keeps for sometimes hours was killing the server. The longer combat goes, the more unstable the game gets per person using skills.

In summation you guys really need to kill healing potential at least by 20 percent, if not 30. Limit heal stacking, unnerf sets that can kill the ballgroups, and when new players complain about the end game pvp being too hard to get into, you need to ignore them because clearly they're not sticking around when it is more accessible. These changes are a lot easier than trying to fundamentally change pvp, and even with vengeance you will still need to cut healing if you really want it to be successful and maintain its audience long term.

Which at this rate I can tell you, it won't.

tldr: nerf heals, bring back the damage meta. More fun for everyone, vengeance or greyhost.

But you can kill ball groups? A well timed negate with a roa/vd bomber? You can't x an organised group. I play in a ballgroup and we are definitely killable.
We're in a crit meta as of this patch, so nerfing heals ain't gonna help, If anything they're needed, I saw several other old timers and experienced PvPers.

Are you serious? Yes nerfing heals and speeds will do it. Why are you not in a ball group in Vengeance, and in Vengeance you are 10 times much more killable!
So nerfing speed and heal does work!

Durham · December 8

skinnymini wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Something yall dont seem to realize is that what people want from pvp is for people to be killable, including ballgroups. Or maybe y'all do but are going about it the wrong way. As was said by @Durham vengeance isnt going to stop your balancing act, its only going to expose the problems of pvp with the core classes from the start. Sets gave us potential to close the gap between our chosen class and the op ones, and subclassing somewhat has that potential also, but your solution to both lag and revitalizing pvp numbers is a lot simpler.

Mym used to be so much fun, and I believe the last time it was, was during your release of plaguebreak, hrothgars, and Dark Convergence, glitches and problems aside, because it was a damage meta and people were killable. You guys moved in a bad direction when you gave vigor minor resolve, and nerfed the damage perks in the blue tree, making everyone much tankier. Between that, nerfing damage sets that can kill ballgroups like plaguebreak and azura's blight, and scribing skills adding even more healing potential, the game got staler because people stopped dying, making the pvp more frustrating and also attributing to the lag in the game because ballgroups spamming skills and running around keeps for sometimes hours was killing the server. The longer combat goes, the more unstable the game gets per person using skills.

In summation you guys really need to kill healing potential at least by 20 percent, if not 30. Limit heal stacking, unnerf sets that can kill the ballgroups, and when new players complain about the end game pvp being too hard to get into, you need to ignore them because clearly they're not sticking around when it is more accessible. These changes are a lot easier than trying to fundamentally change pvp, and even with vengeance you will still need to cut healing if you really want it to be successful and maintain its audience long term.

Which at this rate I can tell you, it won't.

tldr: nerf heals, bring back the damage meta. More fun for everyone, vengeance or greyhost.

But you can kill ball groups? A well timed negate with a roa/vd bomber? You can't x an organised group. I play in a ballgroup and we are definitely killable.
We're in a crit meta as of this patch, so nerfing heals ain't gonna help, If anything they're needed, I would rather out heal than be instantly wiped by a specbow, null arca pop.

Also we have been in a crit meta for a long time now!

Radiate77 · December 8

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Personally, I'm against Vengeance replacing normal Cyrodiil.

I'd rather have Vengeance Cyro than Subclassed Cyro.

This. A thousand times this.^^^^^^^^^

We couldn’t Subclass last Vengeance, and the campaign was weaker for it.

I think you mean you were weaker for the campaign. Subclassing would have given an unfair edge against someone like me that remained pure.

The point of Vengeance is we are all equal in the gear and weapons we use, that skill is what counts.

No it wouldn’t have.

In Vengeance, every skill only does 1-2 things, and you have no passives to exploit. There was absolutely zero reason why we couldn’t have it last Vengeance, and if it’s not in the next iteration either, I will not be playing that too.

Devils advocate, what would the complaints look like? Oh no your skill was blue and mine was red, that’s not fair, I don’t have access to blue unless I get rid of my yellow or green skills… 😭

ShutUpitsRed · December 9

Thank you for bringing back GH

blktauna · December 9

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I have to ask where you're getting these numbers.

AI...lol

According to DC 100% of EP are unemployed.

Well they're right about me, I'm retired

xR3ACTORx · December 9

blktauna wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I have to ask where you're getting these numbers.

AI...lol

According to DC 100% of EP are unemployed.

Well they're right about me, I'm retired

Congrats.
I'm still recovering from that accident when forklifter drove over my foot and to be honest I enjoy my life more when being unemployed than when I had to waste my time on working a 40+ hours a week.
Luckily I live in Europe with it's social securities system.

Lucasl402 · December 10

Vengeance is already dead during prime time now that people have realized Grey Host is back up.

And that's with the double XP and 50 transmutes daily with vengeance. Most still play Grey Host anyway.

BardokRedSnow · December 10

skinnymini wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Something yall dont seem to realize is that what people want from pvp is for people to be killable, including ballgroups. Or maybe y'all do but are going about it the wrong way. As was said by @Durham vengeance isnt going to stop your balancing act, its only going to expose the problems of pvp with the core classes from the start. Sets gave us potential to close the gap between our chosen class and the op ones, and subclassing somewhat has that potential also, but your solution to both lag and revitalizing pvp numbers is a lot simpler.

Mym used to be so much fun, and I believe the last time it was, was during your release of plaguebreak, hrothgars, and Dark Convergence, glitches and problems aside, because it was a damage meta and people were killable. You guys moved in a bad direction when you gave vigor minor resolve, and nerfed the damage perks in the blue tree, making everyone much tankier. Between that, nerfing damage sets that can kill ballgroups like plaguebreak and azura's blight, and scribing skills adding even more healing potential, the game got staler because people stopped dying, making the pvp more frustrating and also attributing to the lag in the game because ballgroups spamming skills and running around keeps for sometimes hours was killing the server. The longer combat goes, the more unstable the game gets per person using skills.

In summation you guys really need to kill healing potential at least by 20 percent, if not 30. Limit heal stacking, unnerf sets that can kill the ballgroups, and when new players complain about the end game pvp being too hard to get into, you need to ignore them because clearly they're not sticking around when it is more accessible. These changes are a lot easier than trying to fundamentally change pvp, and even with vengeance you will still need to cut healing if you really want it to be successful and maintain its audience long term.

Which at this rate I can tell you, it won't.

tldr: nerf heals, bring back the damage meta. More fun for everyone, vengeance or greyhost.

But you can kill ball groups? A well timed negate with a roa/vd bomber? You can't x an organised group. I play in a ballgroup and we are definitely killable.
We're in a crit meta as of this patch, so nerfing heals ain't gonna help, If anything they're needed, I would rather out heal than be instantly wiped by a specbow, null arca pop.

More easily killed* don’t pretend you don’t know what I mean lol everyone does. You need a Zerg with constant negates and siege plus bombers sprinkled in to reasonably and consistently deal with ballgroups, everything halts when they get involved.

You can also kill block tanks, you can kill anything. It’s annoying I have to explain an obvious truth everyone here recognizes.

Zos caters to ballgroups and nerfed sets that made bombing and killing them easier. I said they run around for hours without dying, not that they’re immortal

xR3ACTORx · December 10

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

. You need a Zerg with constant negates and siege plus bombers sprinkled in to reasonably and consistently deal with ballgroups, everything halts when they get involved.

You can also kill block tanks, you can kill anything. It’s annoying I have to explain an obvious truth everyone here recognizes.

Zos caters to ballgroups and nerfed sets that made bombing and killing them easier. I said they run around for hours without dying, not that they’re immortal

So what kills the zerg then? Yes, ballgroups.
Zergs are the reason ballgroups exist.

Ballgroups ain't unkillable. If you would have actually ever played in a ballgroup you would now that ballgroup also get wiped all the time.

I played solo, I zerged and I played in ballgroups and from my own experience I can say playing in a ballgroup requires more skill than zerging.

But I guess as everything else it's all just a matter of perception.

Radiate77 · December 10

Ball Groups are not going to be a problem in Vengeance, but they sure are one in Gray Host.

People say that cutting cross-healing will solve the problem, or buffing sets like Vicious Death, but neither are the answer.

Break down the gameplay. You move in a ball, you are immune to snares and immobilization from a Mythic, you have 50k* health shields from Scribing, and you spam AoE damage skills that provide all of the buffs you need, you take damage and however long it takes to do that 50k* damage you then swap places with someone else in the ball.

In order to fix Ballgrouping, you need to stop the above cycle somewhere, and we do not have the tools to do so effectively on Live.

ESO PvP shines best when you overcome odds, but in order to do that, the game needs to be designed to allow it.

BardokRedSnow · December 11

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I played I can say playing in a ballgroup requires more skill than zerging.
.

Very low bar lol and mileage may vary. Contrary to popular belief there is skill in zerging, and you can see it displayed by the people who are good out of the Zerg. Zerglings are cannon fodder, bombers and dps kill the Zerg, and pushers move the Zerg/ give bombers a stack to bomb.

I have played with balls before, there’s skill to it but not all balls are created equal… some are just 12 mans with a bunch of healers and a bomber (hopefully) and they hope for the best. And I’ve also played in small mans that the 12 man groups can’t kill because having even one really good healer is literally just that op, much less two or more.

BardokRedSnow · December 11

If there was no skill in the Zerg then ep on pc na would be able to beat dc with even numbers, but we have way better players and also more soloers on DC than either faction so that almost never happens. Speaking from experience, always playing with a comp spoils you.

Being good outside of the group is as important as being good outside of the Zerg.