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Community Update – Vengeance Testing & Cyrodiil
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AngryPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
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To this day ZOS is still referring to vengeance as a "test". I don't need to prove anything to you. You already know it to be true.2 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I know they've said it's a test.
What I want to see proof of is that it was a test to gather data to improve normal live Cyrodiil. Where are people getting this bold bit from?
There was an extensive QandA about Vengeance 1 and at every turn it is perfectly clear they stressed it was a test to reassure people it wasn't a definitive product but something they would iterate upon. Everything said in the stream @edward_frigidhands points to this also. I'd invite everyone to go reread and rewatch it with this in mind and then come back and tell me they are not talking about a new game mode. If they ever suggested otherwise I'd like to hear where, because this wasn't it.
I'm sorry it makes no sense. I think that whole interpretation is just wishful thinking. The only thing one can really accuse ZOS of is not disabusing people of this evident misinterpretation. But even there, it's always been ZOS way of communicating to not be definite about anything until it is near completion. So silence about player speculation is par for the course.
Edited by Muizer on 27 November 2025 01:39Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sidewaves89 wrote: »So basically you gave up on trying to improve performance in current campaigns. If Scenario 2 come true what's the point for pvp players in buying new DLCs if sets won't work there?
Basically they said they cant improve on performance in the current campaigns and keep things as they are with all the sets, the high population, etc. They tried, and they concluded they cant.
Im glad they will run both at the same time and we will see what people really prefer.Edited by Katahdin on 27 November 2025 01:45Beta tester November 20130 -
AngryPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
✭I know they've said it's a test.
What I want to see proof of is that it was a test to gather data to improve normal live Cyrodiil. Where are people getting this bold bit from?
There was an extensive QandA about Vengeance 1 and at every turn it is perfectly clear they stressed it was a test to reassure people it wasn't a definitive product but something they would iterate upon. Everything said in the stream @edward_frigidhands points to this also. I'd invite everyone to go reread and rewatch it with this in mind and then come back and tell me they are not talking about a new game mode. If they ever suggested otherwise I'd like to hear where, because this wasn't it.
I'm sorry it makes no sense. I think that whole interpretation is just wishful thinking. The only thing one can really accuse ZOS of is not disabusing people of this evident misinterpretation. But even there, it's always been ZOS way of communicating to not be definite about anything until it is near completion. So that's par for the course.
Multiple people have linked to the proof. It's ZOS that repeatedly stated vengeance was a test to get information they could use to improve live Cyrodiil. Either you're way out of touch with current events or you're being deliberately obsequious.
We know now our suspicions that they weren't being honest about it being just a test were completely justified.4 -
AngryPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sidewaves89 wrote: »So basically you gave up on trying to improve performance in current campaigns. If Scenario 2 come true what's the point for pvp players in buying new DLCs if sets won't work there?
Basically they said they cant improve on performance in the current campaigns and keep things as they are with all the sets, the high population, etc. They tried, and they concluded they cant.
Well why not? Circa 2018 Cyrodiil was booming with 300 players/faction and reliably good performance. I'll never forget how awesome the performance was after they replaced their old servers...which are now old again by server standards. Is this all because ZOS is refusing to invest in better servers again? (by the way, do you remember ZOS telling us that the new servers wouldn't improve performance notably, even though it did in fact radically improve performance?)
Furthermore, we've repeatedly asked ZOS to remove some of the most calculation intensive sets and they have refused to do so. They aren't even trying to fix anything with Grey Host.
Edited by AngryPenguin on 27 November 2025 01:502 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭
This was your question.
Several posters have now linked you proof that it was sold as a test.
You are moving the goal posts at this point.4 -
imPDA✭✭✭What I want to see proof of is that it was a test to gather data to improve normal live Cyrodiil. Where are people getting this bold bit from?
What people really wanted to know was whether this would become a new campaign one day ("Is it a new feature?", "Is it a new mode?") or if it was a test-only scenario where the results would be applied to the existing campaign. The evasive wording from the ESO team led people to misinterpret the answers.
But still, they were talking about how "templates are only for testing". And yet no - templated characters are now a main part of Vengeance, correct? They said they would remove Vengeance if it was hated. Now that it is hated, removal isn't even on the list of possible outcomes for the future test.2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭AngryPenguin wrote: »I know they've said it's a test.
What I want to see proof of is that it was a test to gather data to improve normal live Cyrodiil. Where are people getting this bold bit from?
There was an extensive QandA about Vengeance 1 and at every turn it is perfectly clear they stressed it was a test to reassure people it wasn't a definitive product but something they would iterate upon. Everything said in the stream @edward_frigidhands points to this also. I'd invite everyone to go reread and rewatch it with this in mind and then come back and tell me they are not talking about a new game mode. If they ever suggested otherwise I'd like to hear where, because this wasn't it.
I'm sorry it makes no sense. I think that whole interpretation is just wishful thinking. The only thing one can really accuse ZOS of is not disabusing people of this evident misinterpretation. But even there, it's always been ZOS way of communicating to not be definite about anything until it is near completion. So that's par for the course.
Multiple people have linked to the proof. It's ZOS that repeatedly stated vengeance was a test to get information they could use to improve live Cyrodiil. Either you're way out of touch with current events or you're being deliberately obsequious.
We know now our suspicions that they weren't being honest about it being just a test were completely justified.
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guarstompemoji✭✭✭✭This sounds like a step towards balancing pvp and pve separately, which is needed.
If the skills are the issue, then limited skills and loadouts could be offered, and more gear options made available.
Or, maybe turn all of those unused but existing gear sets into pvp specific ones.
Anxious, but wanting to see what's ahead.Edited by guarstompemoji on 27 November 2025 02:431 -
JohnRingo✭✭✭This statement from ZOS makes it clear those of us who despise vengeance and will never play any version of vengeance have only one option now:
We have to boycott participation in all vengeance going forward and hope ZOS figures out vengeance is a fail in every way.
This is absolutely the correct course of action at this point.3 -
Von_ZaliusSoul ShrivenThank you so much! This is exactly the kind of communication that is greatly appreciated and absolutely essential for changes like this one.
I know there’s been a lot of criticism surrounding this campaign, and many unhappy players are proposing alternatives that would suit them better. But in most cases, I’m well aware things aren’t that simple, and many people only listen (or rather read) what they want to hear. Personally, I think the changes you’re proposing are by far the best possible and a real breath of fresh air for the PvP side of the game! With these changes, everyone can find what they’re looking for! I personally really enjoyed the changes in the Vengeance campaign, and I can’t wait to dive back into Cyrodiil with a lighter approach to it.
On top of that, the new game mode you mentioned seems like a very relevant middle ground between Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil, and I think people are overlooking this addition, which could really please those who want something like Cyrodiil but with better performance and more direct objectives.
Anyway, well done, it’s truly excellent! Can’t wait to try all of this! Congrats to the whole team!1 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »StihlReign wrote: »MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »So you wanna stop trying to fix GH Cyrodiil, because we cant archive 900 people? Why not just trying to adjust it to 600 for example and keep trying?
Not sure they really care about Cyrodiil - it feels more like they don't want to 'fix' (change) combat.
Nothing we do to NPCs is a problem except killing them too fast enmasse. Sets in this category are nerfed, typically with a note and some reference to the server. PvPers then complain because the same sets initially killed Cyrodiil's more oppressive groups, meanwhile the groups become efficient with those nerfed sets and kill the server through relentless farming. Subclassing, no tuning.
The devs have been receptive to a few PvP changes but that tends to taper off if they impact PvE groups.
To improve Cyrodiil, healing and damage would need to change, which affects PvE. If PvE combat is perfect without PvPs influence, and ESO is essentially a solo RP MMO, we're probably seeing the end of ESO PvP without some pretty directed changes to base game combat. The devs built Template PvP to solve the PvP problem. Play how you want PvP => template.
PvE, no more worries. Beeeam
I'm guessing BGs will be on the chopping block shortly, it feels like the devs have moved on...
Implying that PvE balance is in a good state, though...
A lot of PvErs are just as interested in them screwing their heads back on and working on balance since they were like "here's Subclassing ghlf!" back in June. A lot of us don't want to have the all-beam-all-the-time meta either.
They seriously need to do that thing that everyone's been suggesting where they don't let HoTs of the same type stack. Someone else throws a Radiating on you? Fine, it replaces the one you have, not adds to it. Done.
It does make me sad that they're really pushing ESO into being a solo game. We've pretty well lost a lot of the things that made this an MMO, and now the big push is to take out the RPG elements and make it so you never have to make choices and can get everything all at once with no downsides.
So when the MMORPG loses its MMO and its RPG aspects... what are you left with?
Not a good state for players and many PvPers, but the devs stance has been everything is perfectly fine with subclass balance. No Adjustments. Get rid of PvP and you remove a large portion of sub-class complaints. Get that to a dull roar, easier to manage and ignore? I think they've moved on.
It's probably fair to say at this point, many of the better known ESO community managers and devs don't share positive views of PvP. The recent record of ignoring PTS is borderline legendary and almost no one is shocked the devs are proposing a plan to shutter the zone (the players figured it out months ago). Everything is trending towards a long, planned effort to eliminate PvP in ESO, most of what we see they've planned and built out 3-9 months ago.
Hello Template PvP = Goodbye combat complaints. PvE is saved = No adjustments needed. Think about where we are: The devs broke combat, combat timing and animations during the largest event of the year, hotfixed some of it, went silent on the rest, then went on vacation...meanwhile the reports stack up while we suffer with poor gameplay for another extended period.
Not sure what happens when the MMORPG loses its MMO and its RPG aspects...but I bet there's a ton of folks who will miss the PvP buyers.
Wonder how low the price of Columbine, Roe, dragon rheum and dreugh wax will get?
Edited by StihlReign on 27 November 2025 11:13"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
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Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »
This was your question.
Several posters have now linked you proof that it was sold as a test.
You are moving the goal posts at this point.
Oh the irony. I asked for evidence that the test was aimed to improve current cyrodiil. I get evidence that it was 'a test'. Who exactly is moving the goalpost here lol.Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Some more questions:
-What will happen to the other Cyrodiil campaigns in both scenario 1 and scenario 2? Will they keep existing, be removed, something else?
-How many resources have been spent over the years to try and get Cyrodiil working as intended? And will these resources now get allocated to more content/features, or will you still try to fix Cyrodiil going forward?
-Could a cause of the lag in Cyrodiil be the Imperial City still being linked to Cyrodiil? In the IC we still get messages about the scrolls/gates/etc in Cyrodiil there, even though the two should no longer be linked.
-What will happen in scenario 1 if due to playernumbers both vengeance and grey host end up with unhealthy/unsustainable populations? basically showing neither PvP mode was populair enough to begin with. (asking as some players are expressing boycotts for certain modes)
-You stated that in survey test 1 many players expressed their like for vengeance, was vengeance liked by enough players to have a healthy permanent/sustainable population for that mode?
There are players who enjoy vengeance, and you are actively trying to keep vengeance from them/have ZOS remove vengeance from the game. Which is just as bad as players who want your beloved Cyrodiil closed/removed! The more options for gameplay, the more players who can happily play what they want, and the more players who can play the modes that they want to play. Growing both the game and it's population.This statement from ZOS makes it clear those of us who despise vengeance and will never play any version of vengeance have only one option now:
We have to boycott participation in all vengeance going forward and hope ZOS figures out vengeance is a fail in every way.
This is absolutely the correct course of action at this point.
Besides that, boycotting vengeance will actually have the opposite effect. If enough grey host players go to vengeance, causing both vengeance and grey host to have unhealthy/unsustainable populations, the entire future of PvP in this game will be at risk. Making it seem like neither vengeance nor grey host have a place in this game's future, and I'm guessing you do not want that either.0 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »
This was your question.
Several posters have now linked you proof that it was sold as a test.
You are moving the goal posts at this point.
Oh the irony. I asked for evidence that the test was aimed to improve current cyrodiil. I get evidence that it was 'a test'. Who exactly is moving the goalpost here lol.
A bunch of players had similar concerns as early as January:
Cyrodiil Champions Test Q&A Livestream - Jan 24 @ 1pm ESTZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone!
We've been seeing a lot of questions about the Cyrodiil Champions test currently on the PTS. To help clarify a few points, we will be hosting a very brief (15-20 minute) livestream today at 1pm EST on twitch.tv/bethesda to answer some common questions including what the goals of this test are, how this current test is different from what will be on Live, what success looks like from our end, and more. This is not taking the place of the written Q&A that is in progress and we do not plan to cover any other topics.
Looking forward to seeing you all in a few hours!Major_Mangle wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
This might be answered during the stream but I´ll ask here regardless:
Me and a few of the people I play with have concerns about these tests due to the fact what the outcome/consequences of previous tests, mainly referring to the No-proc test that took place a few years ago. Back then it was also presented as a temporary test period that wasn´t meant to become a permanent campaign option. The outcome of that decision caused one of the most popular PvP campaigns on PCEU to become a complete empty campaign/ghost town that no one longer plays.
What me and the group I play with would like to know is if it´s possible to disclose if these tests will ONLY be data collection tests with no plans to actually make this kind of "preset PvP" (or however you´d like to call it) a thing in the future? If it´s not something you guys can answer at this time that´s fine, but it would be kind of a dealbreaker for our group if we wanna participate in this test week or not.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Stream VOD is here in case you missed it! https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2362374320"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
LoS1 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭PTS Update 45 - Feedback Thread for Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)i11ionward wrote: »Is the team going to look at feedback about how balanced the skills and classes are?
I really liked the overall idea of the campaign, but I wish there were more build options. Adding weapon skills would definitely help with that.
So the goal here in PTS is to test performance. We understand everyone is looking at skill/class balance. While that is important, it's jumping several steps ahead of what we are trying to accomplish with the test. Before we can realistically look at balance, we need to make sure things are working as intended for performance. It is why we are stressing the importance of answering the questions in the first post. If we can't get in info needed to make things work properly, then balancing means nothing anyway. This isn't to ignore thoughts on balance, but rather to make sure we are clear about the objective of this test on PTS.
I'd forgotten about this interchange during the early days of Vengeance testing on PTS. Now that I look at things again, in retrospect this probably speaks to the current approach to subclassing balance (if there is an intent to balance subclassing, not certain there's any will to change the status quo), and could answer why balance in GH is given so little importance or attention beyond anything egregiously broken..."O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
LoS1 -
albertberku✭✭✭✭I have been playing Grey Host a lot and i mean a LOT. But the sweaty PvPers there are getting really to a point that they are griefing every other player, with the power they got from subclassing and scribing. Any form of unfair gameplay, they use it to their advantage. If now players want a more fair, more accessible gameplay experience it is not anyone's fault but yours that open a Kill/Death display, look for the most absurd one-shot builds, tinker their builds for that, and eye at their D/K percentage during the whole gameplay.
And for what end? You will make all these normal players leave and you will stay on your own and fight against players like yourselves. And you will stop playing eventually because you wont be getting easy wins anymore. If there will be a Vengeance campaign, no matter if Grey Host stays or not, it will be dead, because players that you are so keen to "farm" in 2-3 man sweaty groups are bored of your griefing and fighting against absurd builds, and will move on to where you cant do that. Either a new game, or a new game mode. And no the reason is not that you are a very skilled person and a good player that everyone is escaping, you are just a person that is investing much more hours in this game (and looking for the most OP builds every patch) than an average player. You are killing the Grey Host and all this build customization bs for yourself, not anyone else. So there is that.
At least Vengeance next month will have 4 sets and 7 classes to choose from. And how many builds does Grey Host currently have to choose from? It is just Assasination + Storm Calling + Animal Companion (Grave Lord) with Null Arca + Roksa + Monomythic + Bear Haunch + all stats Health. Vengeance will have easily much more build variety than Grey Host. You dont root for "build variety", you root for unfair advantages, easy kills and a no lifer gameplay experience.
They bricked the PvP so hard with all those recent updates and now everyone knows there is no recovering anymore, you can't balance this. They will just simply leave it and start from the scratch, which i support. Lesson learned: If you give freedom to a MMO PvPer, they will always use it to grief other players. So there always has to be a some kind of pre-determined, balanced architecure, like classes or loadouts/perks, etc. to avoid players abusing the freedom like this.Edited by albertberku on 27 November 2025 14:292 -
shadyjane62✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I wish I took screenshots of all the times we were told vengeance is not going to be a mode and that is was for testing purposes only.
All those times they said it was for testing, I prayed it was not true. I want a permanent Vengeance campaign. It's only PvP left to me since the awful subclassing.
As a pure Templar for 11 years, my fingers refuse to learn new moves.0
