Dont deactivate normal Cyrodiil or respectfully i will not play any title with a zenimax brand anymo

fizzybeef · November 24

I have just read this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

And i know you dont care about one player and some of the audience here probs dont care either.
But i know for a fact im not the only one who will quit the game if you will AXE greyhost / normal cyrodiil to replace it with vengeance.

I have been a pvp player for 11 years, have played the beta, have multiple accounts.
I went through bad performace where everyone has quicksand, i went through siege weapons would make people crash, i went through lag fest´s before yous finally invested into new servers.

What made me playling a lot less, was your uncontrolled throw in of the unbalanced mess subclassing is AND Vengeance.
Whenever vengeance comes, i do not touch your title till its gone.

Yet you admited you are not able to keep the game performance stable in pvp with a population of 120 people per faction.
Thats respectfully not our fault.

So instead youre honestly EVEN THINKING ABOUT axeing the normal pvp, a etablished system wich pulled and hold a loyal playerbase into the game and was there for 11 years.

We are not your alpha or beta testers anymore.

Invest into hardware. Find ways to make it work. Maybe think of removing all these flashy mount and armor animations in pvp ? Oh no - these are making money with the crownstore.

Im upset about this a lot, its a slap into the face of every pvp player and i can prophecy you will loose a giant chunk of your loyal paying customers if you ever bring that move.

You just proved once more, your endgame players are not your core audience anymore and that you have lost track of what the playerbase wants.

And NO this is not a good bye thread, find another reason to delete or close it.

But im telling you, if you bring that move i will not touch any title with a zenimax brand on it anymore, my eso plus sub and me will be gone and that with over 10k i have invested in the last years.

Outragous ZOS

amiiegee · November 24

Oh great so they’re going to force changes on the PvP community which the majority do not want based on middling feedback from casual PvE players that only play reliably it there is a golden pursuit FOMOing them into doing it.

Performance on PS5 hasn’t been bad enough to warrant these changes since the server upgrade, and the performance in vengeance for me at least was actually worse than in grey host so I don’t believe them for a second that this is legitimately about performance issue.

I don’t buy for one second that population was higher in the third test than the regular baseline considering that a total of 10 people max were playing one of the alliances on PSEU and all servers reported struggling to get even one bar during the test. In fact immediately afterwards the day the test ended there was over 100 people on the leaderboard for that very same alliance. PvP players do not want to play vengeance, on the whole, and PvE/casual players will only jump in during an event or incentive like a golden pursuit. ZoS is just killing off a section of its community for 0 gain, yet again.

Veinblood1965 · November 24

It's the same old same old with every major change more people leave than are drawn in. Many will quit, but few that come will stay, they will say "hey I heard the servers are great now in ESO I'm coming back to PVP". Then they get here and find out it's vengeance and immediately unsubscribe. Of course there will be those that love it and do stay but by far less than will leave. It's why most guild chats are silent. I had several long standing guilds where the chats were lively and often just turn into ghost towns. Vendoring down about 80% and many long time friends left the game.

BardokRedSnow · November 24

I said as much before in the thread but will say it here also and anywhere else it is brought up. Add me to the list of people who will abandon the game if greyhost is removed. It would be such a bad decision that I'll no longer trust ZOS to make good decisions in favor of the players; I already don't trust them as is. The series is supposed to be about "having options" but now they want to consider less options because they cant nerf healing so ballgroups cant live for an hour in a keep spamming skills, or just do regular maintenance on their servers which actually does lower lag.

Or both.

Getting rid of greyhost in favor of Vengeance campaigns is not an option unless they wish to take vengeance on Microsoft for the layoffs by costing them more money. In which case, sure option 2 is outstanding because I wont give them a cent ever again.

Yall already lost players simply by doing the tests because people suspected this. I currently do not see more than ten people online on my friends list at one time anymore. Regularly the higherups make awful decisions like this that ruin the good content still remaining. Case in point, Solstice. Great story, terrible event/season pass garbage.

Subclassing can be balanced, healing can be nerfed, but nothing will ever be done to make me agree to stripping away the complexity of pvp we've had for over a decade because PvErs wanna zerg for a week before they get bored and never return.

fizzybeef · November 24

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

had several long standing guilds where the chats were lively and often just turn into ghost towns. Vendoring down about 80% and many long time friends left the game.

this has already happened to me, alot of people i played fo ahes with quitted and now they want to take everything what makes the game funf for those who are left

TX12001rwb17_ESO · November 24

So your only here for the optional versus mode?

I would prefer if ZOS just removed PvP, Cyrodiil has so much PvE potential.

BardokRedSnow · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So your only here for the optional versus mode?

I would prefer if ZOS just removed PvP, Cyrodiil has so much PvE potential.

So you're only here for the optional repetitive ai mode?

I would prefer it if zos made all instances open pvp instances, the zones have amazing PVP potential. So many pugs to farm.

kargen27 · 12:00AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So your only here for the optional versus mode?

I would prefer if ZOS just removed PvP, Cyrodiil has so much PvE potential.

So you're only here for the optional repetitive ai mode?

I would prefer it if zos made all instances open pvp instances, the zones have amazing PVP potential. So many pugs to farm.

Those zones have very little if any PvP potential. PvP would have to be opt in and there are no real choke points or area of interest locations compelling the PvP crowd to gather. What would happen is a few fight take place for the first week or two and then gankers hide near wayshrines hoping some player who forgot to turn off PvP comes along. Eventually PvP in those zones would be forgotten.

Soarora · 12:45AM

ZOS literally said in the post that they don’t want to remove Grey Host.

tomofhyrule · 12:53AM

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS literally said in the post that they don’t want to remove Grey Host.

To be fair, they also said when Vengeance was released that it was only a test and not a permanent solution.

Soarora · 12:59AM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS literally said in the post that they don’t want to remove Grey Host.

To be fair, they also said when Vengeance was released that it was only a test and not a permanent solution.

This is true and I understand the importance of outrage to prove the point that Grey Host is important... but ZOS has also previously blown us off for being outraged before the thing actually happens (which I think is why we stopped getting patch notes on stream days and instead get them on PTS day... U35...). There's a limit between useful outrage and something that looks like someone who didn't read the post, especially if other people don't read the post and it becomes a telephone game.

licenturion · 1:35AM

This comment is not specific on the OP, but more general.

What really bothers me in all this is that players (including me) have been complaining that there isn’t enough transparency, too much secrecy of what is in the works and not enough time for player feedback to reflect on plans.

The post Jessica did is exactly what everyone wants for months. Instead of shooting down everything it would be more productive in the long run to give usefull and respectful feedback instead of going into full hyperbole mode or ragebate threads on reddit where people leave out some specific sentences to rile up people. Or this might be the last time ZOS is actually talking about stuff that is coming months before release.

Lucasl402 · 3:21AM

Every instance of vengeance fewer and fewer players return to the game. That's just the facts. We aren't going to stick around if vengeance is mandated. We just aren't. ZOS needs to get that through their thick skulls.

Lucasl402 · 3:23AM

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So your only here for the optional versus mode?

I would prefer if ZOS just removed PvP, Cyrodiil has so much PvE potential.

How would you feel if the rest of us lobbied to have PvE removed from the game? Wouldn't you consider to be rude and obnoxious?

fizzybeef · 4:53AM

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Every instance of vengeance fewer and fewer players return to the game. That's just the facts. We aren't going to stick around if vengeance is mandated. We just aren't. ZOS needs to get that through their thick skulls.

Thats basiclly what i wanted to say with a lot of more words.

And yes the transparancy is text is good, their blurred out chart numbers are not

Gabriel_H · 6:02AM

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work. ZOS explained why it doesn't (The reason being something some of us have been shouting about for years).

Unless quantum computing becomes a thing anytime soon, there is no solution to the performance except to cut player numbers in Cyro even further or cut the complexity of the calculations from skills.

Gabriel_H · 6:04AM

fizzybeef wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Every instance of vengeance fewer and fewer players return to the game. That's just the facts. We aren't going to stick around if vengeance is mandated. We just aren't. ZOS needs to get that through their thick skulls.

Thats basiclly what i wanted to say with a lot of more words.

And yes the transparancy is text is good, their blurred out chart numbers are not

The blurred out play numbers that you can easily infer from the stated cap?

MISTFORMBZZZ · 6:21AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work.

It does work and a lot of people enjoy it in the way it is. Speak for yourself.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

there is no solution to the performance except to cut player numbers in Cyro even further or cut the complexity of the calculations from skills.

I disagree. How about remove the animations of glowing swords and weapons , every single armor bit needs to be calculated in their animations, same as every single mount wich appears with a flashbang ultra LED animation and 16 different moving arms.

Why dont start with this ? Put everyone in a same looking armor again like in the beginning, before trying to cut out the fun for everyone.

But i can tell why this is not to consider, because people spend fortunes for outfits and mounts.
But even more some people, me included play pvp for vanilla cyrodiil.

Take this from me and im gone and will not come back.

BardokRedSnow · 6:24AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work. ZOS explained why it doesn't (The reason being something some of us have been shouting about for years).

Unless quantum computing becomes a thing anytime soon, there is no solution to the performance except to cut player numbers in Cyro even further or cut the complexity of the calculations from skills.

Bit of a hyperbole, its not like Cyrodiil is so bad that people can't play there, I haven't had a crash there in over half a year and as long as you turn off ambient occlusion and turn shadow down to low, there shouldn't be audio bugs like there used to be.

The lag is always gonna be a thing to an extent and yea at times it gets bad, but its usually because of primetime weekend pvp, or an obscene amount of ballgroups in one location.

All they need to do to cut down on the performance issues is simply nerf ballgroups, namely their ability to overheal so much and stack shields. You weaken healing across the board and not only will everyone have more fun, and ballgroups will die more while also still having a strategic advantage of grouping, but youll also limit the performance issues because the battles wont last as long.

They repeatedly said "Prolonged fighting" and constantly casting skills was the issue. Well, literally no one does that more obnoxiously than their precious ballgroups they seem to want to protect so much. Wont allow us to keep sets that kill them, because they constantly nerf them, they wont nerf overhealing, heal stacking and shield stacking, and for whatever reason they won't listen to actual pvpers repeatedly telling them this again and again and again and would rather do these asinine convoluted tests instead.

Cyrodiil could be fixed in one day in the hands of someone competent or someone willing to listen to reason. At this point I can only assume their ego is getting in the way.

Gabriel_H · 6:30AM

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

It does work and a lot of people enjoy it in the way it is. Speak for yourself.

Look at those graphs. If good performance is 50% or below on the Y, and you are routinely hitting 100% at a player cap of 360 - objectively it does not work.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

I disagree. How about remove the animations of glowing swords and weapons , every single armor bit needs to be calculated in their animations, same as every single mount wich appears with a flashbang ultra LED animation and 16 different moving arms.

Those things eat your memory. The issue is the server calcs which are from the skills.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Take this from me and im gone and will not come back.

Nobody is taking anything. Did you even read the ZOS post?

"As a dev team, Scenario 1 (We would open a Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign sometime next year with a special ruleset based on the previous and upcoming tests, and leave Grey Host open as it is now) is the one we strongly prefer and is the most likely. We want you to have a choice between playing in Vengeance or Gray Host, and would closely monitor both campaign populations to help inform any additional actions we should take moving forward."

YandereGirlfriend · 7:02AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work.

That's literally just your opinion and not remotely close to a factual statement. Do you actually PvP?

I do. Most nights of the week. There is an hour of truly bad lag perhaps once per week in entirely predictable situations (prime time hammer fight, etc.). It honestly was significantly worse in the past. And that isn't just me but the experience of my whole guild as well.

There are legitimate game design and balance reasons to revisit some of the complexity of ability effects but in no universe is the solution to the supposed problem of Grey Host to simply nuke Grey Host from orbit and shunt everyone into a game mode that they never asked for nor do they prefer to play in.

MISTFORMBZZZ · 7:05AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

It does work and a lot of people enjoy it in the way it is. Speak for yourself.

Look at those graphs. If good performance is 50% or below on the Y, and you are routinely hitting 100% at a player cap of 360 - objectively it does not work.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

I disagree. How about remove the animations of glowing swords and weapons , every single armor bit needs to be calculated in their animations, same as every single mount wich appears with a flashbang ultra LED animation and 16 different moving arms.

Those things eat your memory. The issue is the server calcs which are from the skills.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Take this from me and im gone and will not come back.

Nobody is taking anything. Did you even read the ZOS post?

"As a dev team, Scenario 1 (We would open a Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign sometime next year with a special ruleset based on the previous and upcoming tests, and leave Grey Host open as it is now) is the one we strongly prefer and is the most likely. We want you to have a choice between playing in Vengeance or Gray Host, and would closely monitor both campaign populations to help inform any additional actions we should take moving forward."

I did read it and standalone the fact they are considering it, even mentioning it is insane and a big disrespectful slap into the face of the audience who enjoys pvp.

So why you pc players always think youre the centre of the world, we on console did not have performance issues at the time when the server was full.
Maybe try to deactivate 1-2 of your addon´s you will eventually see the screen of the game again aswell as a positive side effect.

''Those things eat your memory. The issue is the server calcs which are from the skills.''
Who says that ?

Everything has to be calculated. Every single step, every single move anything does, any interaction has to be calculated.

Before removing something elementar like SKILLS, i would rather remove skins, outfit styles and mounts except some standard stuff.

Bring back the times, when everyone is running in the armor and mounts of their faction´s style. Back in the days the pop cap was also higher

Gabriel_H · 7:46AM

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

''Those things eat your memory. The issue is the server calcs which are from the skills.''
Who says that ?

ZOS do, along with anyone who has knowledge of how games like this work. Animations are run from client side - the only thing the server does is confirm your position - the animations don't add to server load. Skills are all calculated server side because they affect others.

Gabriel_H · 7:49AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work.

That's literally just your opinion and not remotely close to a factual statement. Do you actually PvP?

Again, not my opinion. The data shows it.

Theignson · 8:13AM

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
Without 25,000 hp heals per second, 12,000 shield per second, they found out they had no advantage as a group and any 12 pugs could kill them.

The fact is that Cyrodil has died a slow death largely due to the enormously over powered groups. ZOS has lost sight of game balance.

The math is something like this: a pug group generally has only a small bonus as a group, so 12 people = approximately a strength of n=12.This is an additive increase per player.
However, with the above changes to the game, ball groups power goes at least multiplicative and, arguably, exponentially.

So now 2 players in a group can have a strength of 2(2) = 4. A six man can have 6(2) = a power of 36, This is why you see well structured 6 man groups running around with dozens of players seemingly helpless. Of course with a 12 man 12(2) = 144, they are virtually immortal. With heals of shields they have something like 37,000 hp heals per second for the whole group.

Now an exponential claim may be overstating the group advantage as you scale up. It may only be multiplicative, eg (players) (x) where X is probably 4-5. So in the scenario some 12 man groups are as strong as 50-60 pugs.

I am all for build variety and subclassing. But group strength should not be multiplicative or exponential. It should be additive, ie a group, due to coordinated movement and strategy, as an advantage over a similar number of pugs. So a well run ball group should have 12+n, eg advantage,
This is actually the case in Vengeance and some of the old school groups with skill had a noticeable , but not hugely overpowered advantage.
Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

licenturion · 8:48AM

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
...
I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

While I agree partially with them that ZOS should promise to keep GreyHost running, they should also continue developing Vengeance.

If PvP’ers think Vengeance should be cancelled because they are so afraid that the majority will switch to Vengeance, that only says they actually agree that Vengeance mode is better for the majority of players.

ZOS should keep GreyHost, so they could fight among themselves while others can have fun in Vengeance or the other new mode. The mode that is the most fun, will have the most players and balance will sort itself out.

Gankform · 8:52AM

It's time for me to go find my friends who have been left for a long time...yes its gb post from me:P

amiiegee · 9:22AM

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
Without 25,000 hp heals per second, 12,000 shield per second, they found out they had no advantage as a group and any 12 pugs could kill them.

The fact is that Cyrodil has died a slow death largely due to the enormously over powered groups. ZOS has lost sight of game balance.

The math is something like this: a pug group generally has only a small bonus as a group, so 12 people = approximately a strength of n=12.This is an additive increase per player.
However, with the above changes to the game, ball groups power goes at least multiplicative and, arguably, exponentially.

So now 2 players in a group can have a strength of 2(2) = 4. A six man can have 6(2) = a power of 36, This is why you see well structured 6 man groups running around with dozens of players seemingly helpless. Of course with a 12 man 12(2) = 144, they are virtually immortal. With heals of shields they have something like 37,000 hp heals per second for the whole group.

Now an exponential claim may be overstating the group advantage as you scale up. It may only be multiplicative, eg (players) (x) where X is probably 4-5. So in the scenario some 12 man groups are as strong as 50-60 pugs.

I am all for build variety and subclassing. But group strength should not be multiplicative or exponential. It should be additive, ie a group, due to coordinated movement and strategy, as an advantage over a similar number of pugs. So a well run ball group should have 12+n, eg advantage,
This is actually the case in Vengeance and some of the old school groups with skill had a noticeable , but not hugely overpowered advantage.
Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

Speak for your server
Not everyone gets bullied by ball groups on their server, some people know how to deal with them.

MISTFORMBZZZ · 11:23AM

licenturion wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
...
I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

If PvP’ers think Vengeance should be cancelled because they are so afraid that the majority will switch to Vengeance, that only says they actually agree that Vengeance mode is better for the majority of players.

I have not ever seen anyone claiming that.

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

On PS EU while the last vengeance (and this is no joke) like 30 people participated.
As soon it was gone the server was populated, leaderboard full and for a short time even 3 bars each

licenturion · 12:23PM

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

On PS EU while the last vengeance (and this is no joke) like 30 people participated.
As soon it was gone the server was populated, leaderboard full and for a short time even 3 bars each

Well then, ZOS their months long data analytics and survey data must be wrong then. Oh no, and they are investing all these resources and man hours for nothing now. They should use anecdotal examples next time as data points. /s

All joking aside, even though I am pro-Vengeance, I do agree with the other side too and agree that they should leave Greyhost alone and it keep it as an option for players who like playing GH. That way everyone is happy and can play their own way. They should not take it away and I agree with those who say this. In fact, it would have been better that they wrote something like 'We are fully committed in keeping GH also available in the future'. That one sentence could have made this announcement being received a lot better.