Hahahahahahaha of course they will not do such thing, neither will they acknowledge that it was their worst idea yet.

You are right tho. Class diversity was fun. We were doing dungeons trials back then, everyone knows how much optimization trials took, but even on small group(dungeons or pvp small scale) we would bring different classes to bring different unique buffs to the team and it was fun. Although that ended up 4 arcanists being better than any team comp at some point as well.
Only question is, if a system is profitable enough for them. Will it sell the new expansion? They will get rid of classes altogether if they think its whats going to make them money next year

I don’t know that’s feasible. Best we can hope for—and what should be done at minimum—is a complete overhaul and retuning of all sets, skills (including scribing) and animations in the game. Sets in particular are an egregious oversight and the developer line that they add “variety” and encourage unique builds is laughable because no one in their right mind uses 99% of the sets which are objectively trash.

They can’t keep adding systems and features and leaving them half-baked because the result is that the product feels at once bloated, unfinished and unfocused…where we are now.

React wrote: »

I gave it a solid chance, even had some positive opinions about it post-launch for a bit. But I made clear that I was worried about how it'd settle after a patch or two, and we've now reached that point.

In endgame PVE and PVP where combat balance actually matters, I firmly believe subclassing has done irreparable damage to the playerbase. The unfettered power brought by this system has just completely ruined any remaining semblance of balance, and has created the most watered down homogenized combat experience I've ever had on ESO.

It is really sad to see, because the game use to be so diverse with all it's different classes and specs, with people running a wide variety of things and doing well. This just doesn't exist in a post subclassing world - when it comes to endgame PVP and PVE, you are now losing an unacceptable amount of power to take suboptimal skill line choices.

I know a lot of the casual players enjoy subclassing, and I am happy for them. Truly. But the sentiment I am seeing from the majority of veteran players is that they are unhappy with where subclassing has landed us - and based on the fact that there has been nearly ZERO balancing since it's introduction, it seems very unlikely that the studio has any intentions of trying to make changes to earn those players back.

Maybe this is just the culmination of years worth of pushing against the endgame community's desires, and the game just isn't being made for us anymore.

This game isn't being made for us at least since U35.
Their target audience is solo crowd who prioritizes esthetics and rp features over balance. They will never reroll subclassing, because their target audience enjoy it.

Firsty of all there is no subclassing in ESO.
It's called multiclassing.

Second, you can't remove one thing from the game without compensating with another.

Thats why I think the best case scenario is to remove multiclassing and add proper subclassing.

React wrote: »

In endgame PVE and PVP

ZOS are not interested in that, they made it clear through the last years. they need only casual and roleplaying community. I'm surprised they even release new 12 ppl trials at all, and you should totally disrespect yourself to play pvp this days

I would say dream on, will never happen.

Koshka wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Of course they should rollback and remove this nonsense of subclassing. But that's exactly why it won't happen, because it doesn't make any sense. So… they will keep it.

Meanwhile, they'll probably find something else to break the game even more.

Koshka wrote: »

"... even if it made my chars more powerful...."

And this is the problem: ESO is not about fun or the game anymore it's only about a DPS race. The fun, the lore, the fantasy, the game we enjoy has turned into nothing more than a DPS race.

No mechanics needed, no tanks needed, no healers needed, no fun needed… just DPS!!!

For me personally, getting the hardest achievements is the most fun thing about the game. And the requirements ZOS sets for these achievements correlates with the best possible performance in a given patch. Therefore it's not really possible to get them without caring about dps.
And what's with tanks and healers not being needed? Those are actually crucial roles in trifecta runs.

There are a small group of players that are able to do amazing things in game with the power subclassing provided. They can get perfectas in record time and with less need of two tanks or healers. I would argue that this is not the majority experience for the largest endgame group, the mid level players. I myself am in this group. Subclassing brought my dps up a considerable amount, but most groups dont have the skill required to complete the vKA perfecta in 12 minutes or whatever. The combat balance of the game is in a bad state, but we have to get used to the fact that subclassing will not be rolled back. We should focus our efforts on smart balancing. Maybe a higher tier of raids, nightmare mode or something. We have to live in the world we have and fight for what's possible.

I see no reason to get rid of it. I tried it but do not use it on my main or any of my alts, I am able to complete the content I want to do just fine using the base classes, grinding out the xp to level up the skill lines did not interest me. I play this game for lore and story, the details of builds and concerns about hybridization are of little interest to me. That said, I have zero interest in "end game" content, I don't do vet content, too old and too slow on the keyboard at this point. I did that sort of stuff in WoW, 15 years ago when I was still middle aged.

Subclassing, as it was implemented, really destroyed a lot of the love I had for this game. It was done in the most destructive possible way, with zero regard for tester feedback and any consequences. Seriously, the endgame discords were calling the OP setups and every issue within an hour or so of it leaking, and I’m supposed to believe that the Combat Team (whose literal job it is to do ESO Combat!) couldn’t see any of this coming?!?

That said, we can’t go back. All we can do is hope the Combat Team gets their heads out of their respective nether regions and deigns to balance this before too many (more) people leave in disgust.

I do think Subclassing was good for the casual/RP crowd. There were a lot of people who do not engage in endgame who felt fettered by the rigid Class structure… but that was because a lot of them don’t understand that in a competitive environment (like an MMO, which ESO is), some restrictions need to exist to ensure fairness and balance. That is now all out the window.

If this is the vision the Team had, it needed to have all lines balanced against each other before Subclassing was implemented. Even a few patches before it dropped, they were still balancing Classes on the “this is underpowered because you have this OP thing in another line so it’s balanced-ish.” And that point is now completely moot. Sure, balance was far from perfect then (yes, Arcanist was OP there too), but that balance was better than the mess we have now.

Alternatively, they could have put restrictions on Subclassing. Subclassing in overland is a lot of nothing - who cares if your OP godmode build can oneshot random mobs in a delve. That’s a big whatever. Heck, I’d have even allowed trading all three lines and not having the line restrictions. But it should have been done such that if Grasharog is not able to come out, then neither can you Subclass. No Subclassing in vet instances or PvP. That way, casual and overland would still allow you to RP whatever you want, but there would still be some semblance of a balance handle in competitive modes.

Of course, the Khajiit is out of the bag. Anything the Team does now will result in adding restrictions or severe nerfs to rein in the obscene power creep, neither of which would be popular and would end up driving people away. There’s not an easy solution on how to thread this needle, and that’s if you have a Team that has constantly proven themselves to be fair and competent. And this one… has not.

The real problem is that the Combat Team is, for whatever reason, unable to do anything anymore. There has been basically zero effort to balance anything since. Seriously, since U46, they have:

1. neutered DK sustain
2. tossed Sorc skills in a blender (partially reverted)
3. destroyed ultigen passives (reverted)
4. thrown one (1) bone to Necros

Really? All that since June?!? And now in U48, we see basically no combat changes because they hard-focused on putting Perks and Loadouts into Vengeance (which are in no other game mode). Why is the team actively avoiding the Live balance issues?!?!

This is what makes me scared for the future of this game. The game balance should not be in the toilet for 9+ months until we have a chance of it getting fixed. And, if the Team is going to add anything new, which the game desperately needs after such a light year of content, is the Combat Team going to just continue ignoring balance to work on the new shiny? Or are they going to prevent the addition of anything else to attempt some semblance of balancing at the same glacial pace while the game withers due to lack of new stuff?

I’ll admit, I desperately want a new Class. I want to be able to see the world through new eyes and play with a new set of skills. And now, Subclassing means that a new Class would not be the “thou must make a new character” thing it was before since you could totally use the new stuff on an existing character. But considering the utter lack of balance the game has, it sounds irresponsible at best to add anything new. And how long will it take for the Team to come around to balancing things? So I get depressed thinking that either they’ll never get around to the thing I want most, or that if they say “screw it” and do give it to me, then that’ll only result in the game getting worse.