Subclassing is fun for PvE, but it destroyed PvP

ArchMikem · August 13

As a PvE main, I got so happy about being able to subclass Storm Calling onto my StamBlade so I could play an actual SpellSword, like I do in TES:V.

In Cyro, Subclassing was a huge mistake. Being bulldozed by Sorcanistdens or one tapped by Arcansorcblades has made absolutely every single moment in PvP an abysmal experience.

I struggled for years earning my Star, I learned and adapted, but this absolute massive wrench is a Camel back breaker. I have zero desire to participate anymore unless they introduce a Non-Subclassing Camp.

Rohamad_Ali · August 13

After every major change, it is difficult. I remember when CP was introduced and some people did not want to re level. These are the same game tricks they use in all mmo pvp games to raise the ceiling or lower the floor to keep everyone on a perpetual hamster wheel of achievement content and re learning game dynamics. I hope they throw you a bone for a campaign you can at least play.

Araneae6537 · August 13

I thought that PvP had already been destroyed by class X and set Y? And those ball groups working together and those individual players who dare heal allies they aren’t grouped with….

reazea · August 26

ArchMikem wrote: »

As a PvE main, I got so happy about being able to subclass Storm Calling onto my StamBlade so I could play an actual SpellSword, like I do in TES:V.

In Cyro, Subclassing was a huge mistake. Being bulldozed by Sorcanistdens or one tapped by Arcansorcblades has made absolutely every single moment in PvP an abysmal experience.

I struggled for years earning my Star, I learned and adapted, but this absolute massive wrench is a Camel back breaker. I have zero desire to participate anymore unless they introduce a Non-Subclassing Camp.

We knew this would happen. It was very predictable. Subclassing totally blew the lid off any chance of balancing the game. It's just a matter of finding the 5 or so top tier builds now depending on your class.

Oblivion_Protocol · August 31

reazea wrote: »

We knew this would happen. It was very predictable. Subclassing totally blew the lid off any chance of balancing the game. It's just a matter of finding the 5 or so top tier builds now depending on your class.

I bring this up occasionally, frankly because I’ll never stop feeling a bit salty about it, but I said that subclassing would only bring about a meta where three or four builds would dominate everything. It’s just shifting power laterally, not actually balancing it.

People told me I was wrong and that it would bring about so much build creativity and the possibilities would be endless.

Fast forward a few months, and everybody’s running around with their ‘Assassination-Storm Calling-whatever’ builds, and the power scale is so stupidly out of tune that for the first time in ages, proc sets don’t matter. Other than Rushing Agony and maybe Null Arca, there’s no proc set that hits as hard as a critically juiced spec bow.

ArchMikem · August 31

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

We knew this would happen. It was very predictable. Subclassing totally blew the lid off any chance of balancing the game. It's just a matter of finding the 5 or so top tier builds now depending on your class.

Fast forward a few months, and everybody’s running around with their ‘Assassination-Storm Calling-whatever’ builds, and the power scale is so stupidly out of tune that for the first time in ages, proc sets don’t matter. Other than Rushing Agony and maybe Null Arca, there’s no proc set that hits as hard as a critically juiced spec bow.

The most common I see are Animal Companions, Storm Calling, and Grave Lord. Streak gives them mobility to run away, and the other two just bursts everyone down.

RaidingTraiding · October 6

Nothing has damaged pvp more than rush of agony. That said, subclassing really has brought out more of the class imbalance issues and magnified them. Good example is assassination, where everyone and their grandmas dog is running bow proc. And why wouldn't they if you can fire 2 with each proc hitting harder than most ults in the game.

if skill lines were balanced then there would be good opportunity for theory crafting, but as long as a few skill lines are so overwhelmingly better than everything else, everyone will get funneled into the same 3 skill lines. Now it feels like you're fighting the same build over and over. that's in between getting pulled to instant death from the next keep over by a rush of agony user

Oblivion_Protocol · October 13

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Nothing has damaged pvp more than rush of agony. That said, subclassing really has brought out more of the class imbalance issues and magnified them. Good example is assassination, where everyone and their grandmas dog is running bow proc. And why wouldn't they if you can fire 2 with each proc hitting harder than most ults in the game.

Subclassing didn’t bring out or expose anything. We all knew what the problem skills were already. People have been complaining about spec bow and NB for years. Same goes for several Warden skills and Streak. Yet, when the devs allowed us to take all of these problem skills and shout “By your powers combined, I am the meta”, suddenly people want to walk around with the shocked Pikachu face.

Oh, and let’s not forget Scribing, which literally allows you to fill any gaps left behind by your Subclassing build. No burst heal? No stun? No sustain? No problem! Just Scribe it in.

RaidingTraiding · October 15

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Nothing has damaged pvp more than rush of agony. That said, subclassing really has brought out more of the class imbalance issues and magnified them. Good example is assassination, where everyone and their grandmas dog is running bow proc. And why wouldn't they if you can fire 2 with each proc hitting harder than most ults in the game.

Subclassing didn’t bring out or expose anything. We all knew what the problem skills were already. People have been complaining about spec bow and NB for years. Same goes for several Warden skills and Streak. Yet, when the devs allowed us to take all of these problem skills and shout “By your powers combined, I am the meta”, suddenly people want to walk around with the shocked Pikachu face.

Oh, and let’s not forget Scribing, which literally allows you to fill any gaps left behind by your Subclassing build. No burst heal? No stun? No sustain? No problem! Just Scribe it in.

yeah I probably should have emphasized how bad it had already been. my point was that they made things even worse, not that they had exposed anything, since there were things that were obviously overperforming for quite some time.

For one, damage from these broken skills went up. For example, both animal companions and assassination give you crit damage so now you can have beetles and bow proc and benefit from both skill line passives to buff the damage on both of those skills.

Second, it's more common to see these skills now. Say you didn't like the nightblade playstyle, or you really enjoyed another class. Now you can just add bow proc and have access to one of if not the highest damaging skills in the game without having to play a full nightblade. And now you're fighting not just one overperforming skill at a time, but a combination. And like you said, scribing fills in any gaps you missed.

But if for some reason you decide to play a pure class without subclassing, especially a weaker class, prepare to get rolled. Even more so without scribing. You're now forced into both of those things if you want to be able to enjoy playing. So chase the meta or be satisfied with being at a major disadvantage. no wonder the pop keeps going down.

QB1 · October 28

The potential is still there for a lot more creativity to builds with subclassing. I still have a blast with it despite not playing the meta 3-4 skill lines.

Nerf rush of agony, tune down assassination, animal companions, storm calling, aedric spear (or tune all other skill lines up).

Need consistent tuning patches and hot fixes

Rhaegar75 · November 11

QB1 wrote: »

The potential is still there for a lot more creativity to builds with subclassing. I still have a blast with it despite not playing the meta 3-4 skill lines.

Nerf rush of agony, tune down assassination, animal companions, storm calling, aedric spear (or tune all other skill lines up).

Need consistent tuning patches and hot fixes

Definitely - a lot of builds are carbon copies due to some clearly overtuned skills;

For once ZOS.....boost underrated skills lines rather than nerfing the OP ones!!!

Xarc · November 11

Looking back, I think that in a way, subclassing might be the solution ZOS found to resolve class balance issues. At least now, almost no one complains about it anymore, if you've noticed.

ArchMikem · November 12

QB1 wrote: »

tune down assassination, animal companions, storm calling, aedric spear (or tune all other skill lines up).

Instead of nerfing everything, it'd be a lot better to limit Subclassing to just one skill line.

WuffyCerulei · November 12

Something does gotta give for sure. Everyone and their grandma is using Hurricane for whatever reason. At least changes gotta be made that don't affect PVE tho. Sorc actually needs love in that department.

soelslaev · November 12

All the overpowered copy cat builds are just a new trial with a new trial boss that you and your buddies have not figured out the mechanics of yet. Its part of the game.

But yeah, the Wardens bugs coming up from the ground while the Sorcerers triggered assassination timer is on you is kinda brutal. What to do... what to do...

Yudo · November 13

Before you could look at class animations, mentally prepare for the unique combo's that each could have. Each fight was different with weaknesses and strengths depending on class and build combinations.

Now what we got?

Charm, deep fissure, merc
Charm, deep fissure, merc
Charm, deep fissure, merc

BTW, i also don't agree that subclassing is fun for PVE. It can be fun to RP some stuff here and there.
Beam meta intensified in PVE and is the exact same issue there.

ArchMikem · November 13

soelslaev wrote: »

What to do... what to do...

ArchMikem wrote: »

limit Subclassing to just one skill line.

Also tell me. How am I supposed to fight a Nightblade Warden Sorc that has mobility, burst, charm, and fear all in the same build?

soelslaev · November 16

ArchMikem wrote: »

Also tell me. How am I supposed to fight a Nightblade Warden Sorc that has mobility, burst, charm, and fear all in the same build?

I have not begun to look into it. I am still experimenting with ball group interruption builds for trolling ball groups and helping ragtag groups beat a ball group.

But, off the top of my head, I would start with looking at Undaunted Spiked Bone Shield that returns 95% of damage, and some effective counter I can trigger after I lure them in, like Unchained Aggressor set that gives Major Berserk for a long time (compared to other ways). Clever Alchemist maybe? Or maybe go with a burst-heal high-health region build with a set that lets me counter attack after being pummeled like Warrior's Fury set.

Pick a tactic based on what popular copy pasta build you want to counter, find two things (set, skill, potion, passive) as the base, and start building on that. Then figure out the rest of the things you need with that is left. Most builds need a gap closer/mobility, solid res regen, and some kind of damage burst, and so on. Once you filled in the slots, try it out.The build will need tweaks and your play style will have to adjust.

But this process is half the fun of the game: to field test ideas and see how they do. I love the surprises and insights. Like, I made a build just for scroll running. I thought it would die easy and do no damage and be totally useless. Turns out it survives brawls easier than my purpose-built brawler. Sure, it lives because no one can get a bead on it, but I was in some situations that made me realize there is something else going on that I don't know yet. And even more, I do not need to tweak damage as much as I thought. Now, this scroll running was supposed to be my Alessia Bridge troll build, where I knock people into the water to get eaten by slaughter fish, but that did not work out like I expected. I gotta get back to that one. Or! Here is another surprise from long ago, I misread a set, and accidentally invented Stealy McKillSteal while in Battlegrounds. LOL. My poor teammates.

Anyway, you get the idea.