Blackyack wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Blackyack wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I decided to use an alternate character to level up some lines for subclassing. I picked one that hadn't done any public dungeon quests and then went around doing them. It is rare I go into a public dungeon and don't see at least a couple of other players running around.
Maybe population is down but I'm still seeing quite a few players when I'm out doing my thing. I'm still having fun and it seems so are quite a few other players.
Sorry you are not.

thanks for the sympathy, but your anecdotal evidence is spurious at best. population is way down, off preceding lows. Saying your still enjoying it is fine for you, but its also loaded if your trying to assess statistics and evidence. Of course the people remaining have stayed for their own reasons, and i would never try to take that from you, but you're not who i'm talking about at all. I'm talking about all the people that aren't here anymore, and some of the obvious reasons why.

I don't go into public dungeons for anything really, and while that's cool that is your challenge level, it's not mine, nor the literal legion of people who have left and are phasing out of this game. you can be happy with it, I am not. I've leveled all the lines I want, I have a bazillion hours into this game with 2 or 3 of every class. Gilded sets of everything from meta DD through all the supports. a respectable number of trifectas for my efforts, a few gaps still that I would have liked to check off, but not like this. not at all. and I'm hardly alone, as evidenced by the continual population decline. the endgame is so tweaked right now its ridiculous.

So, again, I'm truly happy for you, but please don't present this situation as fine, and everyone agrees its fine, when its not. the numbers speak volumes. the lack of people complaining isn't a good indication of a problem, but the lack of people at all is.

Other than seeing players in game there are no statistics or evidence. Steam is just a very small part of the population and no other data is made public. So all we have to go on is what we see in game. I see players in game. And you are assuming quite a bit. I said I was using an alternate character to level sub class skill lines and decided to do it with public dungeon quests. I also PvP and was in a top PvP guild and ran with their elite group. I've finished hard mode in most trials and dungeons and still enjoy doing all that. Have a few trifectas but not many. Will probably get more but for now am helping with a progression team. On one account I have twenty characters all geared and skilled out for at least two roles and have several characters on my 2nd account at various levels.
I've had friends leave the game for a variety of reasons but I also have added friends. Sorry you are having a different experience but your experience doesn't prove a decline in the game any more than my experience proves it is thriving. I didn't say everything is fine or that all others think the game is fine. I pointed out my experience is different than yours and the game might not be bad just because you are having a bad time. Maybe you just reached the point where you need a break.

ok sure. the population is fine and thriving! The guild traders are certainly making as much as they ever did! Hakeijos are everywhere for purchase and do not require searching TTC online. Grahtwood has at least as many players as ever on a Sunday afternoon! The endgame discords are definitely as full as ever!
( i have to lol slightly at myself, as i type this, in grahtwood, someone is offering 88 hekiejo in zone)

Guild traders are still suffering from the large supplies brought in by all the 10th year anniversary events and the economy was due for a correction anyway. I'll give you that Imperial City isn't in a good place right now. I've suggested things I think would make it popular again but for now not much reason for most players to go there. Don't know about Sunday afternoon but Saturday night I saw a decent amount of players around the traders when I visited.
I'm not saying the population is as strong as ever. I am saying your experience isn't any better or worse for determining the health of the game than mine and neither of us know what the numbers actually are.

I don't mind subclassing at all, apart from two things, 1) if it's going to work there should be plenty of decent builds that people can make, if not it defeats the entire point. 2) The base classes shouldn't be nerfed or left way less powerful.

They might have a clue how to sort some of this out with something they already did : with scribing, certain combinations aren't allowed to be chosen. They could do similar with skills/passives when they're combined in some ways but instead of not allowing them just make them less powerful or something (only when subclassing is chosen though.) Then give the base classes a boost, even if it's a type of boost to some passives and skills that only works if the classes don't use subclassing.

I'm sure that could be a nightmare to work out and there'd probably be a good number of messed up things happening if it was tried, but if they did it and had patience, then refined it over several patches as they checked player feedback it could end up better than what we have now.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have for the "you can bring any build you want to high-level content and it'll be great!" idea? Particularly when thinking about "high-level content" as vRG HM and above?

Honestly, I don't feel like responding to same argument time and time again. Lemme just quote from a different thread:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m over the “but but but you don’t have to play meta!” argument we see everywhere, even from the devs. It reeks of someone who doesn’t touch endgame content trying to explain endgame content to people who are very experienced in that.

The meta build is obscenely more powerful than anything else, full stop. If you are not bringing the meta, you are coming to your group admitting that you are playing in self-nerf mode and that you don’t care about them enough to contribute properly.

There is a difference between "perfect balance is impossible" (which is true) and "the balance is so bad that one single setup is easily 50% more effective than the second best" (which is currently also true). Are you implying that it's impossible to narrow that gap? And the Combat Team, since Subclassing dropped, has tried the following to balance the game:

• neuter DK sustain
• force Sorcs to use pets (partially reverted)
• disallow ultigen passives from stacking
• throw a single bone to Necros in U48

...that's about it. Are you suggesting that this is a sufficient amount of work done to balance the game because "lol it's impossible"

If the game wasn't made for people who play endgame, then why does it have endgame activities!?!?! The game is made for all of us. Balancing Subclassing would not have made your life any different, and you could still have picked and chosen whatever build you wanted. But the way it came out completely decimated endgame and started driving them off.

...I'm sure you don't care about the exodus of endgamers though. Because you think that ESO, like Skyrim, will always be there for you to solo with. So go ahead, try to play Legends right now and tell us how that goes.
Because ESO, like Legends, is a live-service server-based game, unlike the TES mainline games. That means once enough players leave and Microsoft decided it's unprofitable, that they'll pull the plug. I'm shocked to see the number of people who play ESO exclusively solo who celebrate endgamers getting fed up and leaving, because every person who leaves is one fewer thread keeping ESO active. It's like you're celebrating the very thing that'll kill what you love too.
[edited to remove quote]

You're right about everything, except for one thing. Endgame doesn't need meta either. Endgame can be played without meta, and it's more interesting because the mechanics are not skipped. You don't need these damage numbers for Endgame. Instead of criticizing ZoS for adding multi-class, you should criticize them for making the game more difficult by focusing on meta. However, I highly doubt that they are actually creating content based on meta. After all, they constantly stream how they complete veteran content using completely different builds. All they need is communication and knowledge of mechanics. Not casual damage numbers.

Totally valid post. Nothing wrong with beam builds, I have one for all seven of my characters. I have other builds as well, but they just can’t compete with the beam builds.
Beam builds should be an option but not the best option. They’re fun at first but after a bit they do make me want to quit playing. They’re too easy and ultimately boring. Whatever happened to that “risk vs. reward” crap Zos used to peddle all the time?
All that’s required here is balancing. But what seems like a flat refusal to do it is baffling.

Artem_gig wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have for the "you can bring any build you want to high-level content and it'll be great!" idea? Particularly when thinking about "high-level content" as vRG HM and above?

Honestly, I don't feel like responding to same argument time and time again. Lemme just quote from a different thread:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m over the “but but but you don’t have to play meta!” argument we see everywhere, even from the devs. It reeks of someone who doesn’t touch endgame content trying to explain endgame content to people who are very experienced in that.

The meta build is obscenely more powerful than anything else, full stop. If you are not bringing the meta, you are coming to your group admitting that you are playing in self-nerf mode and that you don’t care about them enough to contribute properly.

There is a difference between "perfect balance is impossible" (which is true) and "the balance is so bad that one single setup is easily 50% more effective than the second best" (which is currently also true). Are you implying that it's impossible to narrow that gap? And the Combat Team, since Subclassing dropped, has tried the following to balance the game:

• neuter DK sustain
• force Sorcs to use pets (partially reverted)
• disallow ultigen passives from stacking
• throw a single bone to Necros in U48

...that's about it. Are you suggesting that this is a sufficient amount of work done to balance the game because "lol it's impossible"

If the game wasn't made for people who play endgame, then why does it have endgame activities!?!?! The game is made for all of us. Balancing Subclassing would not have made your life any different, and you could still have picked and chosen whatever build you wanted. But the way it came out completely decimated endgame and started driving them off.

...I'm sure you don't care about the exodus of endgamers though. Because you think that ESO, like Skyrim, will always be there for you to solo with. So go ahead, try to play Legends right now and tell us how that goes.
Because ESO, like Legends, is a live-service server-based game, unlike the TES mainline games. That means once enough players leave and Microsoft decided it's unprofitable, that they'll pull the plug. I'm shocked to see the number of people who play ESO exclusively solo who celebrate endgamers getting fed up and leaving, because every person who leaves is one fewer thread keeping ESO active. It's like you're celebrating the very thing that'll kill what you love too.
[edited to remove quote]

You're right about everything, except for one thing. Endgame doesn't need meta either. Endgame can be played without meta, and it's more interesting because the mechanics are not skipped. You don't need these damage numbers for Endgame. Instead of criticizing ZoS for adding multi-class, you should criticize them for making the game more difficult by focusing on meta. However, I highly doubt that they are actually creating content based on meta. After all, they constantly stream how they complete veteran content using completely different builds. All they need is communication and knowledge of mechanics. Not casual damage numbers.

I'm gonna stop you right there.

ZOS does not stream themselves playing the game. Full stop. I just checked on the Bethesda Twitch page, and there's nothing there. The last gameplay that isn't just "ooh, look at how pretty the zone is!" is Eigh1Puppies' trial run with his guild. So... players. Not ZOS devs. Who are using beams.
The last time a ZOS dev has streamed themself playing ESO was when Wheeler was showing off the new BGs. And we all know that that featured such highlights as him not knowing heavy attacks restore resources and not recognizing the set that has caused most of the complaints in PvP for years.

And again, I'm not talking about standard vets. Standard vets are not endgame. I'm talking about Hard Modes from Rockgrove and higher. Standard vets can absolutely be completed on every build (assuming you have a group that's going to allow you to bring whatever, but sure let's pretend that those mystical groups exist and are very common for the sake of argument).
Also, there's another factor a lot of people who don't play support don't understand: a group who is not doing high DPS makes playing support so incredibly much harder than having a good DPS group. Sure, it's great to be able to say "hey, come in with whatever for this vet trial!" but you really do need godmode tanks and healers to do those then. I've tanked both types of group, and I can absolutely say that getting Gryphon Heart with a solid DPS group (it wasn't even max DPS) was unquestionably easier than just doing a vCR+0 with a social guild... and it almost beat out doing normal CR+0 with that guild.

I'm in a guild that tries to bring people into vet trials and some of the earlier HMs regardless of build. But even the raid leads know that with the types of people there (who they're not really criticizing for their damage output), they need to 1) stack the group with experienced players who are playing meta and 2) make sure the experienced players are the ones doing the mechanics. If not, it won't clear. I have seen so many people try to use the "I have low damage, but I am good at mechanics" argument and every single one of them has failed every mechanic. Even worse are the people who are on the "I have low DPS so I heal instead" train, since having low DPS is a big non issue in casual settings, but being unable to do your support role (and in a harder circumstance since the group damage is lower) will wipe the group and it will be directly that person's fault.

I actually am fully against the "let's burn it before the mechanics" idea. We have an achievement for passing vMoL within two Lunar phases, and nobody nowadays has even gotten to Lunar once. We're at the point that nobody does Taleria bridges. This means that low skill groups actually have it so much harder than high-level groups. This is not a "why do the players try to make their life easy?" issue - nobody in their right mind is willingly going to make things harder for themselves (which is why the standard 'harder overland' strategy of "lol just take off your armor and food" never flies). It's 100% a game balance problem if the game allows you to stack that much damage to be able to skip everything.

i think here many player forget,parse dummy have 100% sup set(alk/dk flame/full sax) buff time, meta beam real combat not need any
in meta group ,your 120k in no meta build maybe only 72-95k,or you want run many cp/set for you lost stat but still not 120k
for me,my 134k pure nb still can do old trial hm no dead ,i am some new group back up member ,because old trial like godslayer and Dawnbringer are easy for me
but my nb need run many set/cp for my lost stat(6-8k pen 25% crit dmg), so my nb need run Jerensi's Bladestorm and crit dmg cp /khajiit(12%)nb(10%)in meta group real combat still cant full crit dmg,i think other weak build harder.
and because i give up better stat in real combat for my lost stat ,i still cant do 120

heaven13 wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have for the "you can bring any build you want to high-level content and it'll be great!" idea? Particularly when thinking about "high-level content" as vRG HM and above?

Honestly, I don't feel like responding to same argument time and time again. Lemme just quote from a different thread:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m over the “but but but you don’t have to play meta!” argument we see everywhere, even from the devs. It reeks of someone who doesn’t touch endgame content trying to explain endgame content to people who are very experienced in that.

The meta build is obscenely more powerful than anything else, full stop. If you are not bringing the meta, you are coming to your group admitting that you are playing in self-nerf mode and that you don’t care about them enough to contribute properly.

There is a difference between "perfect balance is impossible" (which is true) and "the balance is so bad that one single setup is easily 50% more effective than the second best" (which is currently also true). Are you implying that it's impossible to narrow that gap? And the Combat Team, since Subclassing dropped, has tried the following to balance the game:

• neuter DK sustain
• force Sorcs to use pets (partially reverted)
• disallow ultigen passives from stacking
• throw a single bone to Necros in U48

...that's about it. Are you suggesting that this is a sufficient amount of work done to balance the game because "lol it's impossible"

If the game wasn't made for people who play endgame, then why does it have endgame activities!?!?! The game is made for all of us. Balancing Subclassing would not have made your life any different, and you could still have picked and chosen whatever build you wanted. But the way it came out completely decimated endgame and started driving them off.

...I'm sure you don't care about the exodus of endgamers though. Because you think that ESO, like Skyrim, will always be there for you to solo with. So go ahead, try to play Legends right now and tell us how that goes.
Because ESO, like Legends, is a live-service server-based game, unlike the TES mainline games. That means once enough players leave and Microsoft decided it's unprofitable, that they'll pull the plug. I'm shocked to see the number of people who play ESO exclusively solo who celebrate endgamers getting fed up and leaving, because every person who leaves is one fewer thread keeping ESO active. It's like you're celebrating the very thing that'll kill what you love too.
[edited to remove quote]

You're right about everything, except for one thing. Endgame doesn't need meta either. Endgame can be played without meta, and it's more interesting because the mechanics are not skipped. You don't need these damage numbers for Endgame. Instead of criticizing ZoS for adding multi-class, you should criticize them for making the game more difficult by focusing on meta. However, I highly doubt that they are actually creating content based on meta. After all, they constantly stream how they complete veteran content using completely different builds. All they need is communication and knowledge of mechanics. Not casual damage numbers.

I see you didn't actually answer the question. Do you play endgame content, particularly vRG HM and above content? If yes, are you running and/or leading groups that allow non-meta builds?

I can't believe that it took me this long, but this is the end result of the "toxic casual" attitude taking over, as was predicted in the prophecy of Brother Nefas, Rest in Peace. Players complained they couldn't compete in the high CPM bracket and that HMs were too inaccessable, and ZOS gave us arcanists. Now you have a high dmg, low cpm spell that requires you to cast a high dmg heal that further boosts damage in NOT 1, BUT 2 WAYS to get the most out of it, oh and it also protects people who don't know what ground dmg looks like from being damaged.

Then, idk, RPing dks complained they couldn't go to the party, so we gave everyone beam? How did any of this get past the meeting room? Way to go.

Its like the crappiest trend in MMOs, and none of them seem to be able to avoid it. I really hope the mid-game community enjoys gentrifying Solstice. Maybe they'll name a Starbucks after you and put it up next to the wayshrine.

"FREE NPC PARSE INSTRUCTION WITH ANY PURCHASE FROM THE CROWN STORE."

Barf.