Hybridization

YandereGirlfriend · October 3

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kevkj wrote: »

Would rolling back hybridization but keeping subclassing be worth exploring? Especially in light of the arcanist release which introduced dynamic resource scaling for active skills. The devs could then dictate specific skills/morphs they wanted to be available to both stam or mag setups.

Honestly, simply letting players choose which resource pool that they wanted to use for a given class skill would be interesting and solve a bunch of issues.

It would also free-up several morphs where two skills are identical except for resource cost.

Skills like Weapon Abilities should obviously stay linked to their common sense stat, though.

Just make spells cost magicka and sword swinging cost stamina lol? Hybridization simply removed another layer of immersion, magicka and stamina turned into blue and green ability juice

No, because then you get back into the stupid situation where Stamina builds cannot even use their class kit, like the StamSorcs of old.

Gabriel_H · October 4

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Instead, everything since then has just been doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the same fundamental mistake. Paradoxically, limitations are freeing. You learn that pretty early in any writing or art or filmmaking program. Letting everyone do everything was always going to result in everyone doing the same few things. ZOS are so determined not to learn this lesson, it's almost like they're trying to force reality into a different shape rather than adapt themselves.

That ^^

fizzybeef · October 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Might disagree… but I think hybridization is almost on par with subclassing contributing to bad balance and removing variety.

It’s ironic.

I agree. Hybridisation and subclasing made the game stale and boring. Everyone runs the same sets or they run trash

It's the same in every online loot game these days. A lot of people run the things that gives the quickest rewards.

I am currently playing the new Diablo 4 season and I basically see most people running the 2 most OP classes of the season with the same few current OP builds that kill everything on screen by pressing 1 button. Even though that game has a lot build variety as well.

Ok but eso was never a 2 set game and now it is.
If its fine to you , cool.

I prefered the game how it was before hybridisation and subclassing, the meta created is insanely boring

I understand. But do you think this will change in the future?

If ZOS rebalances sets and skill lines, people will transmute into the next 2 OP sets and skills 10 minutes after the patch drops. Gamers are gonna be gamers.

Thats why they should rollback to pre hybridisation and subclassing.

I know it will never happen no worries.

There was a meta for stam and for mag, there was build diversity and class identity.

Now we have neither.
Im sure roleplayers are happy they can be fire wardens or whatever now, most of the endgame players seem to be pretty upset and dislike it and it what nobody can argue off, it splitted the community and made many leave.

Huh?

People have monocultured the best-in-slot since forever in this game. It was that way before either subclassing or hybridization.

You ever try to bring a Stamina character to a serious trial before hybridization? Laughed out of the instance.

"War, war never changes."

While in pvp stam builds were slapping

fizzybeef · October 4

CoronHR wrote: »

i dislike both hybridisation and subclassing. hybridisation ruined set variety, and subclassing ruined class distinction.

i wonder what's next...sub-racing? mag-stam combo? ten-armed staff-axe-greatsword-shield-resto weilding monstrosity?

We already have some skills costing mag and stam, dor example the dk leash

redlink1979 · October 4

Ratzkifal wrote: »

(...) We used to not have to play hybrids, but now not playing hybrid means intentionally nerfing yourself.
(...)
Subclassing (...) homogenizes builds and kills build diversity and makes balancing even more tricky than before.(...)

All said.

alpha_synuclein · October 4

Hybridization cut build choices in half.
Subclassing reduced them to beam.
So fun....

Udrath · October 4

PvP is really bad now. Before hybridisation it felt well paced and this was when not everyone had a burst heal, one shot damage, infinite sustain, and crazy mobility at the same time. For me the first thing I noticed I hated before hybrid, was when they changed race against time to remove snares. Mobility like that was a luxury you had to build into because snare removals were limited, and so was major expedition. Mobility is what made stamina fun because of forward momentum and evasion. Magicka had their shields, burst heals, more healing over time. Stamina had to block, dodge, use vigor for healing overtime and rally. Magicka didn’t have great stamina to do it all.

SneaK · October 4

Udrath wrote: »

PvP is really bad now. Before hybridisation it felt well paced and this was when not everyone had a burst heal, one shot damage, infinite sustain, and crazy mobility at the same time. For me the first thing I noticed I hated before hybrid, was when they changed race against time to remove snares. Mobility like that was a luxury you had to build into because snare removals were limited, and so was major expedition. Mobility is what made stamina fun because of forward momentum and evasion. Magicka had their shields, burst heals, more healing over time. Stamina had to block, dodge, use vigor for healing overtime and rally. Magicka didn’t have great stamina to do it all.

(Easy) Access to majors is a whole issue in itself.

Alchimiste1 · October 4

“not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.

Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.

In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.

Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.

The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.

“In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

Ah yes nothing except for classes actually feeling and playing different. In case you forgot prior to hybridization Nightblade, sorcerer, dk, warden, templar(to a lesser degree), and even necromancer had two variants (mag/stam) that played very differently. And that was fun. That made it hard to get bored of the patch because if you got bored of something you go to another class.

Multiclassing might have been fun for the first two months because of the unbalanced burst/combo/damage you could create but ultimately it got boring real quick. I don’t want to play some abomination of assassination , animal companion, and restoring light.

For me personally, I will not return to this game unless they remove multiclassing AND hybridization so that classes actually feel unique again.

The causal player base for eso will survive because they don’t really care about any of this. The role play and casuals will be content with anything. But in my personal experience the end game PvP population is bleeding dry. And while I haven’t done any serious pve in a long time , I suspect that even the endgame pve population is experiencing a similar decline. After all, you can only not get bored of beaming everything for so long.

YandereGirlfriend · October 4

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

“not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.

Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.

In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.

Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.

The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.

“In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

Ah yes nothing except for classes actually feeling and playing different. In case you forgot prior to hybridization Nightblade, sorcerer, dk, warden, templar(to a lesser degree), and even necromancer had two variants (mag/stam) that played very differently. And that was fun. That made it hard to get bored of the patch because if you got bored of something you go to another class.

Multiclassing might have been fun for the first two months because of the unbalanced burst/combo/damage you could create but ultimately it got boring real quick. I don’t want to play some abomination of assassination , animal companion, and restoring light.

For me personally, I will not return to this game unless they remove multiclassing AND hybridization so that classes actually feel unique again.

The causal player base for eso will survive because they don’t really care about any of this. The role play and casuals will be content with anything. But in my personal experience the end game PvP population is bleeding dry. And while I haven’t done any serious pve in a long time , I suspect that even the endgame pve population is experiencing a similar decline. After all, you can only not get bored of beaming everything for so long.

You might have personal nostalgia for that time (and perhaps it coincided for patches when your preferred spec was on top) but in reality most people in PvP all played the same dominant spec that was the meta champ at that particular moment in time.

"War, war never changes."

Alchimiste1 · 12:01AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

“not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.

Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.

In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.

Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.

The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.

“In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

Ah yes nothing except for classes actually feeling and playing different. In case you forgot prior to hybridization Nightblade, sorcerer, dk, warden, templar(to a lesser degree), and even necromancer had two variants (mag/stam) that played very differently. And that was fun. That made it hard to get bored of the patch because if you got bored of something you go to another class.

Multiclassing might have been fun for the first two months because of the unbalanced burst/combo/damage you could create but ultimately it got boring real quick. I don’t want to play some abomination of assassination , animal companion, and restoring light.

For me personally, I will not return to this game unless they remove multiclassing AND hybridization so that classes actually feel unique again.

The causal player base for eso will survive because they don’t really care about any of this. The role play and casuals will be content with anything. But in my personal experience the end game PvP population is bleeding dry. And while I haven’t done any serious pve in a long time , I suspect that even the endgame pve population is experiencing a similar decline. After all, you can only not get bored of beaming everything for so long.

You might have personal nostalgia for that time (and perhaps it coincided for patches when your preferred spec was on top) but in reality most people in PvP all played the same dominant spec that was the meta champ at that particular moment in time.

"War, war never changes."

What preferred spec ? I played multiple classes each patch. The one class I tried each patch was nb but I also played at least 2/3 others when I got bored. That just further proves my point.

I’ve played this game since late 2016 the nostalgia is all gone. These are just facts.

YandereGirlfriend · 2:57AM

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

“not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.

Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.

In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.

Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.

The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.

“In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

Ah yes nothing except for classes actually feeling and playing different. In case you forgot prior to hybridization Nightblade, sorcerer, dk, warden, templar(to a lesser degree), and even necromancer had two variants (mag/stam) that played very differently. And that was fun. That made it hard to get bored of the patch because if you got bored of something you go to another class.

Multiclassing might have been fun for the first two months because of the unbalanced burst/combo/damage you could create but ultimately it got boring real quick. I don’t want to play some abomination of assassination , animal companion, and restoring light.

For me personally, I will not return to this game unless they remove multiclassing AND hybridization so that classes actually feel unique again.

The causal player base for eso will survive because they don’t really care about any of this. The role play and casuals will be content with anything. But in my personal experience the end game PvP population is bleeding dry. And while I haven’t done any serious pve in a long time , I suspect that even the endgame pve population is experiencing a similar decline. After all, you can only not get bored of beaming everything for so long.

You might have personal nostalgia for that time (and perhaps it coincided for patches when your preferred spec was on top) but in reality most people in PvP all played the same dominant spec that was the meta champ at that particular moment in time.

"War, war never changes."

What preferred spec ? I played multiple classes each patch. The one class I tried each patch was nb but I also played at least 2/3 others when I got bored. That just further proves my point.

I’ve played this game since late 2016 the nostalgia is all gone. These are just facts.

My point is that you have rose-colored classes on if you think that the past was this amazing utopia of build and class equality. Because it wasn't. I've played since 2018 and have seen it all as well.

Literally every patch had a strongly meta class that the overwhelming majority of players flocked to (and that the forums loudly complained about...). Because most players play what is easiest. A small number play otherwise due to honor or roleplay or whatever, but it was then what it is now to go against the meta: generally a self-inflicted nerf. Which is why most people don't do it.

You can recount the history of PvP through those OP class eras: MagSorc Era, MagDK Era, StamCro Era, StamSorc Era, MagPlar Era, etc. Depending upon the patch, there were maybe 1-2 other specs even worth considering. But whether in Cyro or in BGs you were always fighting cookie-cutter players surfing the flavor of the month.

Alchimiste1 · 6:44AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

“not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.

Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.

In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.

Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.

The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.

“In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization”

Ah yes nothing except for classes actually feeling and playing different. In case you forgot prior to hybridization Nightblade, sorcerer, dk, warden, templar(to a lesser degree), and even necromancer had two variants (mag/stam) that played very differently. And that was fun. That made it hard to get bored of the patch because if you got bored of something you go to another class.

Multiclassing might have been fun for the first two months because of the unbalanced burst/combo/damage you could create but ultimately it got boring real quick. I don’t want to play some abomination of assassination , animal companion, and restoring light.

For me personally, I will not return to this game unless they remove multiclassing AND hybridization so that classes actually feel unique again.

The causal player base for eso will survive because they don’t really care about any of this. The role play and casuals will be content with anything. But in my personal experience the end game PvP population is bleeding dry. And while I haven’t done any serious pve in a long time , I suspect that even the endgame pve population is experiencing a similar decline. After all, you can only not get bored of beaming everything for so long.

You might have personal nostalgia for that time (and perhaps it coincided for patches when your preferred spec was on top) but in reality most people in PvP all played the same dominant spec that was the meta champ at that particular moment in time.

"War, war never changes."

What preferred spec ? I played multiple classes each patch. The one class I tried each patch was nb but I also played at least 2/3 others when I got bored. That just further proves my point.

I’ve played this game since late 2016 the nostalgia is all gone. These are just facts.

My point is that you have rose-colored classes on if you think that the past was this amazing utopia of build and class equality. Because it wasn't. I've played since 2018 and have seen it all as well.

Literally every patch had a strongly meta class that the overwhelming majority of players flocked to (and that the forums loudly complained about...). Because most players play what is easiest. A small number play otherwise due to honor or roleplay or whatever, but it was then what it is now to go against the meta: generally a self-inflicted nerf. Which is why most people don't do it.

You can recount the history of PvP through those OP class eras: MagSorc Era, MagDK Era, StamCro Era, StamSorc Era, MagPlar Era, etc. Depending upon the patch, there were maybe 1-2 other specs even worth considering. But whether in Cyro or in BGs you were always fighting cookie-cutter players surfing the flavor of the month.

Yeah I don’t know where you got this rose tinted utopia thing from because I never claimed it to be such.

My point was and still is that multiclassing actually decreased the viable builds in Cyrodiil. Last I played almost all the players I encounter were using storm calling or assassination unless they are in a ball group.

My other point is that classes had unique playstyles that stopped players like myself from becoming bored. ( regardless of which class was meta at the time). If I was bored of nb I could go sorc, if I was bored of sorc I could go dk, or harmony necro etc. AND they would all play very differently.

Hybridization and multi-classing cooked the game. The stream chart numbers don’t lie, even if we ignore all the anecdotal testimony from good end game pvpers.

Overamera · 7:33AM

A problem also is that many players quit because of this and they are not around to make their "voice" heard anymore in the matter. So the feedback we see is mostly from people who are still around and are fine with subclass/hybrid but still prefer the old magicka and stamina classes.