- Do you have any general comments?

Yes, I saw a lot of people at certain times of the day, but unfortunately there was a bit of lag. I think Zenimax should impose this on PVE and also disable mounts that have special effects. I think there's still room for improvement in this area.

I invested a lot of time in Cyrodiil to understand and immerse myself in a world that I liked, but Zenimax stole that from me. I also bought all the DLC to be optimized with the latest sets released, and you stole that from me too. I don't even know if there's any way to appeal, but if someone speaks up to defend us, I'll follow them.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the new Vengeance Test. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
  - yes. Just played tonight and we had so much going on all over the map. I like to play PvP more than Pve so had a good reference point from previous games.
  
• Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
  - I usually get solid 5-25 fps when having a big fight, all my graphics scaled as low as they go, and only essential PvP addons on. Tonight I left all my graphics to PvE settings (High-Ultra) and my fps was around 30 in big fights. Amazing.
  -
• What you think of the simplified abilities?
  - Easy to understand but boring to use. There is no personal touch. The game didn't feel mine. It felt like playing a simulation. - Hard fixed resurses won't work: healer needs different resources than stamina DD.
  - No CPs makes PvP mains rub their necks with all the champion points they grinded for nothing. (also, almost fell asleep with the slow as heck horse)
  
• What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
  - I love that you guys are taking a long hard look on the Cyrodiil situation. I have always said we should have separate skill morphs and sets for PvP (without fancy visuals but still effective bonuses). But not like this.
  - Over simplification takes the exitement off. It is like being on a poker game and counting all the cards, knowing what others have in their hands. It was fun perfomance wise today, but I don't feel like going back to Cyro untill the event is over.
  - Unite Cyrodiil and IC with a unique playstyle. So PvP has own sets, own morphs on the skills. Changing, interesting rewards (not just the vendors)! PvP dailies have been the same for years, boring and never ending. (adding the monster sets from the bosses was a good touch) Ppl don't care about the telvar, if it is boring or annoying to farm it. IC could be vibrant and Cyro full with people. Players just need a reason to go there: rewarding, fun and engaging games. ^_^

I was able to get into large-scale battles.

Latency in large-scale battles was okay, but not noticeably better than before. Combat did not feel fun, largely due to the simplified abilities.

With simplified abilities, battles are a pure numbers game; whichever faction has more players online wins. There are no bomber builds or counterplay options, discouraging people from staying logged in and worsening the overall situation.

None of my characters became corrupted.

Initial Thoughts on the Vengeance Test:
The Vengeance test sounds like a good idea, but in practice, these changes are not enjoyable. The simplified PvP system removes depth, creativity, and build diversity, which makes the experience less fun for everyone and turns it into a numbers game.

General Feedback:
If Vengeance fully replaces Gray Host, Cyrodiil will be in trouble. While the forums only represent a small portion of the community, the broader player sentiment toward Vengeance is very negative. For example, my PvP guild, Blue Magic, of over 500 members, has little to no interest in this type of gameplay. The lack of meaningful builds removes uniqueness and creativity, which are core to what makes PvP fun and what makes ESO such an amazing game.

JustLovely wrote: »

The next time ZOS mandates vengeance with no other options I'm uninstalling the game.

I hope this feedback is clear enough for the devs to understand it.

I had been at least moderately interested in the next test with the loadouts and perks, but honestly, after this one, and looking at how underwhelming the perks were on PTS, I'm honestly just done with this trash.

8 vs 8, its vaguely fun until you have to fight a keep defended by oils.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Vengeance is a failed game mode. It will be the death of PvP in ESO if ZOS continues down this road. And PvE will die shortly thereafter most likely.

Not seeing this, there's > 3 bars AD, 3 bars EP, 2 bars DC atm at 8pm. So that's over 200 players per faction, on a week day, with a PvE event on.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, some large scale battle occured. In particular, pursuing a scroll steal that turned into a battle overland. Other large scale battles occured in taking a keep. Particularly in getting through the doors to the main and inner keeps where the death bottleneck with siege occurs. one nice thing is that bombers and ball groups weren't around - we actually had some real fights.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
Yes, large scale battles did feel better latency-wise, however, some death recaps still showed things that were not seen. A negative part with pvp in general is that one does not see many of the things that appear on the death recap, and thus cannot react to them.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
The simplified abilities are ok. The single target focus and limitations on some abilities create a fairer pvp environment absent of the exploitative bombers and ball groups. The problem with pvp is the spamming and stacking of 1. AOE burst damage. 2. Stuns/loss of character control. These are more absent with the simplified abilities.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
First, the community should calm down and participate so that you (ESO) can use the data from vengeance to improve the game. Refusing to participate is going to hinder real progress in Cyrodil. At the same time that the simplfied combat is fun, one can't help missing some of the skills players usually have. however, combat is more balanced and ball groups and bombers are non existant. These are the players that probably refuse to participate because their exploitative advantage is taken away. IF pvp was more balanced since Day 1 in 2014/15, this would probably not be an issue. one might even predict that pvp would be even more popular today with more servers/participation.
Do you have any general feedback?
The ball groups and bombers are the problem with pvp. This is not to take anything away from them...what they do is skillful. The ball groups are in voice chat and coordinate the targeting of immense AOE damage into an area to obliterate everything in it's path. In Vengeance, they can't do this. More fighting skill is required in vengeance. The solo builds in normal pvp also exploit for the most part spamming AOE damages. This has always been the trend in pvp. I used to be bombard/steel tornado years ago, then came the shalk/resto ulti, steel tornado etc etc. bombers. Shalks used to major breach, stun or root, and do large damage. These burst AOE skills are the problem because stacking them. Hybridization has also now made it easier to exploit all this damage because one can be in medium armor and spam high damage magicka abilities along with the stam/weapon abilities etc. Remember in pvp once upon a time in 2015 when a Dragon Knight Standard was a bid deal? Today a typical combo is a subclassed Shalks, Frozen Collossus Ulti, and spamming Brawler. The player doesn't need any real targeting skill. HUGE AOE damage needed for dungeon PVE is used in pvp to do massive damage in a matter of 1-3 seconds. Players can't react.
In addition, ball groups benefit from stacked heals. A group with several people stacking vigor heals along with some purges etc. Again, the coordination of these groups are impressive with their 5-10k weapon damage set combos and buffs, almost constant invulnerability, and movement.
So how to fix pvp with Vengeance? Fix AOE heals and AOE damage. Limit stuns and roots so players can block, dodge, shield, counter, etc. etc. Actually fight...not get rooted and then wipedd out in 2 seconds. Balancing things so players don't die as fast, but still can't be completly indestructable and be a nuisance tank...this would possibly be a happy medium. The DEFENDER needs to be able to react to the attacks, every advantage should not be given to the attacker. This allows for a real fight to occur. Bursts negate this good fight. Many other games have pvp cooldowns on stuns and roots, etc. The average player is exploited in a somewhat abusive environment by these bombers and ball groups who ruin the fun of large scale fights. Again - if they are that good - why aren't they in vengeance fighting single target fights? Because their exploitative AOE power is taken away? They refuse to play if they can't exploit AOE's. Spamming AOE's is PVE combat.
One thing about Vengeance is there is much more skill involved with regard to blocking, roll dodging, etc. It is more like a real fight...not an aoe spam fest. Spamming burst aoe damage is not skillful. The setups can require some, but then it is exploitative in actual use.
In short, regular pvp with all the different skills could work (with no need for vengeance.
One thing that should knock down players and where they should have no immunity is when hit with siege. This would curb some of the ball groups if they all were sent flying if hit by a ballista bolt etc. This is not the cure all.
Many people who want a more realistic fighting experience have exited ESO pvp a long time ago. All that is left are the ball group people who have fun running around slaughtering the general population, bomber builds, who do the same out of stealth etc. (over and over again...it is really lame). The average player experience these conditions and doesn't play pvp. With this in mind, getting a good read on pvp is difficult. The exploiters are probably 20-50% of the population, with the rest as cannon fodder for them to run around feeling empowered and heroic by spamming aoe's. Again...the people that are left are mad they can't feel all powerful now...and refuse to actually engage in a real fight and more skillful battle environment in Vengeance. Pity. One thing they can still do is groups can target 1 player at a time...burn 1 at atime quickly...but while doing so, they are prone to damage from others.
What is the solution? How can these toxic ball groups and bombers be eradicated while allowing the full extent of the game skills and sets? That is the question. PVP is terrible for the average player, who left long ago. The only ones left are those who tolerate this environment, and those who exploit it.
Cyrodil is awesome, abitious, and a tremendous achievement. The fact that there are not multiple servers with considerable populations is because of the toxic and abusive environment created by exploitative play that uses PVE AOE. The problem that exists is that these things are generally fine for just an average group that depends on each other to survive...or solos playing alongside each other. However, the exploiters of these pve skills are a real problem.
Last issue: Lag. A small group of players all spamming aoe skills in to a a small area, ultimates, mashing a rotation of skills, all supposed to take place within a second or two...is almost bound to lag. Who is at the disadvantage? The player who is dead and didn't know it until the death recap and see the immense damage that at least the 5 things there can show (more prob preceeded it).
The highest damage skill in pvp should be the fully charged MELEE attack from a 2h, 1h/sh, or DW. One can see them happen, and they are blockable. Everything else should be lesser than the fully charged heavy attack, because the fully charged attack takes TIME to complete. spamming a button and doing huge damage, and AOE damage for that matter, again - takes no account into the defender's ability to counter it.
*In revising pvp, however it is done, these aoe exploits should be taken into heavy consideration along with lag with the DEFENDER in mind and how they can play in the midst of an attack.
If one were to consider a spellmaker, and the cost vs reward of many of the skills, they simply don't cost enough in pvp, and should have a cooldown or something. Imagine, power, duration, range, area of effect, dot or direct. Fantasy AOE skills typically provide a slow heal, damage, buff, debuff, etc. if one had to choose between a spammable a high damage burst aoe, or a high damage single target skills, of course the aoe is going to be the favorite. one barely has to aim. (this brings to mindd another fact that melee weapon skills have too much reach...7m is too much...the ranges should be 4m.

Is it possible that the entire game - both pve and pvp - need a zoom out to look at damages and how they are being applied. The new classes and power creep is very real. What if all of the AOE bursts were checked? Why should dungeons/trials/more difficult content, as well as pvp - rely on aoe burst damage - as if one is playing a hack and slash isometric game like Diablo. All the NPC's in the game are basically trash mobs to be obliterated bhy massive AOE damage. What if even trials and dungeons had to survive and fight NPC's with more 1 on 1 type skills...fight, dodge, block, heal...work together...rather than spam aoe? Problems in the past such as heavy attack damage where people would just spam lighting staff heavy attacks...why? Because the lightning staff heavy attack did AOE dmg (with no cost to boot as heavy attacks regenerated). If the AOE damage in both pve and pvp were curbed...the problems with people saying the game is too easy may also be curbed. That little mob of npcs in some dungeon might become more difficult and players would actually need to switch bars, work together, etc...rather than spam the same thing.
If PVE aoe damage were addressed, then so would that naturally address pvp. The PVE is mentioned here, because the PVE power creep is partly because of AOE damage, and huge burst aoe damage, and those same skills translate over into PVP. If less of the aoe things were present, this may also be more in the spirit of the older single player elder scrolls games with more realistic combat.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

You don't know what the player caps are any more than anyone else does, outside of ZOS employees at least.

And you're clearly not referring to PC NA.

So your just making a massive assumption and calling it fact. We don't know that they raised the pop cap at all for this round of vengeance, and whatever the cap is, there are fewer people playing this vengeance than play on normal live mode. That's why the campaign balance has been so lopsided this time around; only EP has guilds that are playing this vengeance and 20 people is all it takes to dominate the whole map all day for EP during this test.

PC NA Has always had a bad PvP population, no-CP was dead even back in 2016 on that server. On EU it was maxed out and had more players on average than the CP one. Do keep in mind that America isn't the whole world

The pop caps are around 100 players on live. People did a lot of work determining the numbers which was ~100 at max pop. Before they cut the population caps down, back in 2014 it was 1800 so 600 per faction: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/#en/answer/6533

Groups of 20 people? I've seen easily >2x that on each faction at a flagged keep, with lots of other keeps flagged with many players as well.

Last year they even tested with increased pop caps: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing/p1

What's really interesting is people on that thread explaining why live Cyrodiil is dying and driving people away because of all the same issues that made people love Vengeance over live.

1) Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
I was only able to get into large-scale battles during prime time pc/na, otherwise the map was predominantly red most of the day. I mentioned this would happen in my feedback from the last Vengeance test. The success of a fight in Vengeance is almost entirely based on population numbers. If there aren't many people online for the other factions, then it will be imbalanced. They'll look at the map and the population bars and be like, "Nope, I'm out," because getting run down by a zerg is not fun.

2) Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)? The few large battles I was able to be a part of had little to no lag, which was nice.

3) What do you think of the simplified abilities? Boring, but shouldn't that be irrelevant if Vengeance is just for testing lag?

4) Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? No

5) What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?/Do you have any general feedback?
One of my biggest issues ever since the first Vengeance test ended was that everyone was arguing over if it should replace regular pvp or not. When it was first introduced, I was under the impression that things were being simplified to test for latency, and then each test after you'd add more stuff back a little at a time to test for lag and pinpoint what the problems are for combat. Since V1 ended, your questions and results are sounding as if Vengeance will become a permanent thing in the future, not simply a test for lag. What are your intentions for it? Why are you adding new things in December's test instead of already existing things if it's just a test? I'm tired of seeing people arguing over it when you could literally just say, "Hey, Vengeance is just to get test results, we don't plan on making it permanent." OR "Hey, Vengeance seems to be pretty well liked by a lot of people, we are considering making it a campaign alongside GH, instead of Blackreach/Ravenwatch/Icereach." WE NEED THIS COMMUNICATION PLEASE. A lot of pvp guilds are not participating in Vengeance because they dislike the playstyle and worry it will become the only option. Since the players in these guilds are most affected by lag, you really need those specific people to test Vengeance the most because they have the most Cyrodiil/combat bug experience over the pve players (no offense). Lastly, if it's test results you want, you should really make it an event again because there really isn't a lot of incentive to play it if you don't like it.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?

Yes, several.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?

Yes, large-scale battles feel much better latency-wise. I have the impression that break free does not always work though. Otherwise, skills fire and bars swap correctly, and I'm one who smashes buttons furiously while in the fervor of a fight. The game was very responsive to my pace.

There was especially this one huge battle at Fort Ash on Wednesday, 24/09. This battle lasted more than one hour (I don't remember exactly, but it began somewhere past 7 pm CEST and finished around 8.40 pm). This one was huge; at some point, there was nothing else going on the map. I didn't experience any latency issues whatsoever during this fight, and it was a truly epic battle and a lot of fun (we only got a 15k def tick though... ).



I had some issues, like ping spikes and rubberbanding outside of battles while riding with our zerg from keep to keep (22/09 around 10pm CEST while blue zerg was pushing Aleswell from Glademist, also 26/09 in the evening while blue zerg was pushing from Bleakers to Chalman Mine and further to Chalman, 27/09 in the evening around Chalman Mine). I forgot to take screenshots though. Also, I noticed some time ago that my machine, which normally runs ESO smoothly, starts to have issues after several hours in the game, be it PvE or PvP. I usually have to /reloadui or restart the game, and it runs fine again. So I don't know how much of it is on my end.

Some members of my groups crashed, and some players mentioned getting disconnected in the zone chat on Wednesday, 24/09 in the afternoon (before the Ash battle above).

Fun-wise, combat doesn't feel that great mostly because my poor DK is far too slow in this mode, and I can't afford to use Rapid Maneuver because it is punishingly expensive.

What you think of the simplified abilities?

I miss morphs. Their lack negatively affects build variety, and it severely limits my options. I don't use Weapon Skills on my main DK, I'm only using Class Skills, which I like better. In Vengeance, I feel forced to equip Weapon Skills to equilibrate between magicka and stamina cost.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.

No.

What happened to trigger the corruption (leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc)?

N/A.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

I'm happy that this test exists at all, and that you are looking for fixes to Cyrodiil's performance while increasing the population caps too. But after three rounds, I think the time has come to start taking into account players' feedback on combat balance. Vengeance starts to resemble live Cyro far too much; mostly because of heal stacking we start to see some nearly unkillables. Also, soon it will be populated only by Nightblades, which isn't fun at all (and without detection potions, there is no way really to win against NBs).

Do you have any general feedback?

It appears that this round of Vengeance is a huge fiasco. Only PC EU was populated it seems, and it never hit pop-lock. You have to get the balance right, listen to your playerbase and factor their feedback in for Vengeance 4. Don’t repeat the same mistakes as on live with heal/shield stacking and healing being more powerful than damage; it just isn't fun anymore.

You have invested some serious time and effort in this test, and if you want to see your ROI, and if you are perhaps considering developing a new PvP mode, then you have to address combat imbalance; otherwise this project will be dead on arrival. Prove that you are taking players' concerns about balance seriously, tell us you are going to tackle it in the next round already and actually follow through, and you might see renewed enthusiasm and participation.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes and no. A few times, but the "LARGE SCALE BATTLES" seem to be more of a 1 sided large scale where one faction was gate keeping another and no where near a equal fight.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
The large scale battles felt exactly the same as before. Nothing changed. Fun for about 10-15 minutes most. Then boring. Nothing could be done to "win the fight" outside of having more people vs having actual game skills or knowledge on what to do or not to do. Mainly, defending a keep was a lot easier than taking one. Still would lose if you were out numbered.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
Where to start with the simplified abilities. They're horrible for the most part. When it takes 5 people to capture a resource because you can't kill guards while trying to take them solo, just simply horrible. Healing seems to be a thing that does exist during this mode (ok lets face it in any mode most don't have self heals or use them). Some base skills seem to be ok, but some seem to be REALLY under powered. Thanks for adding the 2 guilds into the mix this time, the camo hunter worked great for finding a guild stealthed inside of a keep that was taking it ninja style(respect to that guild though! Funny and AWESOME MOVE).

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
My thoughts, while this is possibly a needed thing to actually figure out whats causing issues in your "wonderful old coding." It seems to not be fun for most. We're being forced to be test subjects by this and taking out our normal game play and what we like about the game. The lag is still there during larger fights. Time to cast skills is drastically effected by this lag. Fall damage is still a thing, especially off objects that would appear to be 2ft off the ground. Getting out of combat is still an issue. Overall..... Just not fun. You have people swapping to other factions because they have numbers and just want to make AP, which I get but pointless for the test. Maybe if you decide to do this again make it faction locked, then you'll be able to see numbers spread across the map and not just one faction pvdooring the entire map down. Also there should be WAY MORE REWARDS for those that actually do this test. The 2x AP gain, just isn't enough. Sorry, were doing testing for you, to help you figure out whats wrong with PVP. Instead of you just listening to the people that actually PVP on a daily basis.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?

- Yes like never before! Latency usually seems to be quite hindered with all the calculations of GH. However, in this camp it doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you

- In regular grey host I often encounter a HP bug where my Max health is unable to be fully recovered and will be an arbitrary number like (71% of my regular max HP) and will only reset until I die or leave GH. However, Vengeance I have not come across this bug.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

- I believe DOT based skills have been brought to par where they should be in PVP fights from the removal of battle spirit. I have enjoyed it since the first test! Ive played in ball groups, small man, dueling, 1vX, ganking, you name it, I can say that from the viewpoint of the majority of players(casual drop in probably solo or joining a random casual group) I almost prefer this just not having to deal with ball groups, crutch builds, etc.
The ability to actually fight in battles seems to be in a much better place in terms how you utilize what resources you have to either kill or avoid getting killed rather than just getting insta killed or nuking someone less experienced as you. This opens the door for more casual players which I think is at least 50% of the PVP players in this game that just want to jump into cyro maybe join a random group in zone and ride around and partake in whatever adventures unfold. I think more features like CP should be added in next test to really drill down what is causing the performance issues and keep recall stones would be nice. I dont know if the population caps are the same as regular GH IE 1 bar Veng is the same as 1 bar GH or not so its hard to say but even only 2 bars there have been many large battles in the veng camp.

I did join all vengeance test campaign so far. I was running guild groups. I noticed something typical.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?

- Yes large scale battles. Alliance stacking and populations not reliable. Either players waiting passively or relogging.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?

-The latency was good. In large battles the skills responded less and were often not landing on the opponent as intended, and also had some roll backs. We noticed also that some players were less vulnerable then others even in a 1 on 1 situation. Then a 1vX was needed.

What you think of the simplified abilities?

-It invites players to bring different chars.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.

-None of this happened.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

-It is something different. Unkillable ball groups are not possible any longer with the current population. That is a step in the good direction.

Do you have any general feedback?

Tips:

- Transport inactive (not moving) players to a different instance and substract them from the population.
- Give a deserter penalty when players are logging to another alliance.
- Present then absolute numbers of every population.

We need a more realistic impression of populatons to adapt with a fitting strategy.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?]Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?

I only jumped in briefly to check where this is headed. I did end up in one somewhat large scale battle and didn't notice any performance issues then.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
I felt there were too many abilities with essentially the same effects. I don't mind the abilities being simplified per se. That means you have to make more trade-offs which is good. But even then you need those choices to be meaningful.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.

No

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
I appreciate the approach to creating a performing Cyrodiil and it makes sense to build things up step by step. So I'm prepared to be patient with it. Not everybody is though and at this rate you're going to lose a lot of PvP minded players before Vengeance gets to the point where it becomes engaging.

Do you have any general feedback?

Firstly, I do like the focus on 'jump in and play'. I've really never felt happy with the notion of having to spend a lot of time doing things I don't actually want to do (group PvE) to collect gear. So if it were up to me, work on the skills and perks side of build variety. To the extent that gear is brought back, it really should only be gear from crafting or PvP activities. If not, the 'jump in and play' will be destroyed.

Secondly, it's not just performance or balance that's a problem. Campaign incentives need to be looked at. If for whatever reason people are benefiting from all jumping on one faction and painting the map monochrome, there's something wrong with the campaign rules.