The fun of Cyro PvP is the multiple games being played simultaneously.

At the lowest level, there's the 1v1, 1vX of matching your build and skill with it directly against other players.

Stepping up from that to XvX; some of the best times I've had in Cyro are from small groups (not BGs) repeatedly punching above their weight class. Even when we finally wipe we're still laughing for an hour.

Then there's the board game (Chinese Checkers) aspect to it, adding strategic elements. Playing for buffs, playing for score. Like when one enemy faction has most of the map, so you take one of their home keeps to remove all their home and enemy keep buffs, then use that window then they're weakened to push on them.

Even playing when vastly outnumbered can be fun, because at that point, you and your squad are guerrillas, partisans, LGOPs, disrupting transit lines through hit-and-run tactics to stay ahead of the zerg that's hunting you.

Add to that the fun of massive siege fights, which Vengeance enables and which harken back to the days of Haderus. "Once more onto the breach, dear friends."

Unfortunately, technical limitations seem to prevent the coexistence of massive keep fights and build diversity, but in the spirit of making lemonade from lemons, I think that a permanent Vengeance replacing U50 and no-CP would serve an excellent purpose as a "feeder league" to learn the ropes, rather than the typical "Welcome to Cyrodiil" one usually gets when 1st stepping into Gray Host.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

For me, fighting other players challenges me more then NPC's and Boss fights. It takes a different skill set to predict people over AI. I enjoy the challenge. For some people it is much more.

It's not a challenge if your build just doesn't do anything to the other person. With how big the gap is between common and meta, you've already lost before the fight's even started.

Sylosi wrote: »

In ESO there is very litte fun in PvP, which is why PvP is so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

For PvP to be fun it has to be competitive to some degree and I don't mean "esports", but simply if you are an actual PvP'er (the small self selecting sample of people / groups left in Cyrodiil are not) then you value decent PvP gameplay, which means decent PvP matches, decent fights, etc, as an actual PvP player you don't want to be rolling your face across your keyboard.

And ESO PvP fails miserably in that regard, on pretty much on every front. In terms of "matchmaking" ESO is laughable as you have "PvP" where you have new players vs people with thousands of hours, casuals vs tryhards, not even the same number on each team, etc.

It also doesn't help that the balance is beyond bad, the game has been dumbed down (proc sets, various mechanics, huge powercreep so sets / group comp basically hard carries, etc) and the skill cap is mediocre at best.

So what ESO mostly serves up is relatively low skilled, one sided, boring AF, not very good PvP, hence why there are so few people who still play it, it isn't fun or appealing to actual PvP'ers, meanwhile there are PvP games with millions or tens of millions of players.

Most top-tier PvP players don't enjoy what you are describing so that reads as quite a bit of a straw man argument.

All of them want a challenge where your skill is actually tested by a worthwhile opponent or circumstance, whether that is an equally matched duel or ballgroup GvG or a 1vXer riding the razor's edge in terms of enemy numbers that they can handle.

If someone enjoys easy wins or punching down, then, I would agree, they aren't really a PvP player. But that does not describe most folk whom I know or have played with.

Not much fun these days

Cause of 2016 nostalgia and I guess I like kicking myself in the 🥜