This is how games die

LikiLoki · September 16

No matter what anyone says, the game is still good. Good for new players. The developer needs to focus on attracting fresh people. It would be more interesting for me to play if I saw new faces for whom this world is just opening up its secrets.

twisttop138 · September 16

LikiLoki wrote: »

No matter what anyone says, the game is still good. Good for new players. The developer needs to focus on attracting fresh people. It would be more interesting for me to play if I saw new faces for whom this world is just opening up its secrets.

I don't believe the game is dying but to your point, the game is good for new players. It needs to be good for everyone though. Vets too.

shadyjane62 · September 16

11 years and these days I play more freecell.

loosej · September 16

LikiLoki wrote: »

No matter what anyone says, the game is still good. Good for new players. The developer needs to focus on attracting fresh people. It would be more interesting for me to play if I saw new faces for whom this world is just opening up its secrets.

The focus on attracting new people while making little effort to keep them is the reason player numbers are dropping. At some point everyone who could possibly be interested in this game has at least tried it. Keeping the players they still have, and trying to get some of the ones they lost to return should be the main focus.

ArchMikem · September 16

You realize we've been hearing "This game is dying/dead" every year, for years now.

Writhing Wall/Eastern Solstice will drop and player numbers will spike into the tens of thousands again, like it always does.

ApoAlaia · September 16

MMOs only die in one way: when the publisher pulls the plug.

1 million concurrent players would not 'save' the game from being sunset if the publisher decides is time.

Conversely the publisher can keep the game running with >25 concurrent players for as long as they see fit.

We have no agency here.

The game exists in spite of us, not because of us.

tsaescishoeshiner · September 16

Lowered Steam player count isn't the same as a dying game. People have been claiming ESO was dying or on maintenance mode since like Elsweyr, and there have been higher peaks since then.

I'm just slow to believe it about any game, because people often seem to get very cynical and doomy about it with little evidence—it's a flashy topic. It's not a particularly helpful conversation.

It's also been a while since a new mainline Elder Scrolls game, which would take some players from ESO temporarily, but introduce a lot of new ones over time, as well.

RebornV3x · September 16

The game is currently on the decline one thing I'm sure of is less and less people have ESO+ and or bought the 2025 content pass then ever before.

Orbital78 · September 16

LikiLoki wrote: »

No matter what anyone says, the game is still good. Good for new players. The developer needs to focus on attracting fresh people. It would be more interesting for me to play if I saw new faces for whom this world is just opening up its secrets.

Overall yes, but I think they really need to address the lack of combat versatility. They have slowly narrowed the options pretty greatly. Subclassing has added some niche builds and some customization, but the lack of addressing the underused lines is frustrating.

There are many things to do but the balance is pretty sad right now. The combat team really needs a fire lit or some changes to hierarchy. The whole team cannot think this is the way to go, take feed back from the community.

Part of the decile is probably other good options in the market opening up.

Karivaa · September 16

I just want 24 man groups to come back so the large pvp guilds are around again.

colossalvoids · September 16

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

Orbital78 · September 16

Karivaa wrote: »

I just want 24 man groups to come back so the large pvp guilds are around again.

They are still around, just split into two groups. I see group two calls often.

kargen27 · September 16

ESO died four times in 2014 alone and has died an average of 3.72 times a year since.

How many non-Steam players logged in last month?

Thumbless_Bot · September 16

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

With u48 notes out eso has reached it’s lowest player pop in 6 years on steam and as this is obviously a general trend all launchers are likely to show the same picture.

Eso is experiencing a steady decline in player interest and count, yet all we get is u48 with absolutely no combat changes and u47 with a minimal number of those following u46 obliterating any semblance of balance the game had left by rushed and not thought through multiclassing.
We are far beyond the point where empty promises like “next update” or “next year” can work, after all zos has long lost all of the players’ trust.

It is odd how devs grit their teeth and push changes that no one want while completely ignoring their players’ feedback when all this mentality achieves is making more players quit.
The recent question and answer event on
reddit only made things worse because it has been shown how out of touch with reality and game’s mechanics the combat team really is, that is to say completely.
Such blatant lack of care and effort on devs’ part is incredibly disappointing and tiring, the community is burned out by empty hopes and vain effort to help improve the game.

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

Soarora · September 16

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

With u48 notes out eso has reached it’s lowest player pop in 6 years on steam and as this is obviously a general trend all launchers are likely to show the same picture.

Eso is experiencing a steady decline in player interest and count, yet all we get is u48 with absolutely no combat changes and u47 with a minimal number of those following u46 obliterating any semblance of balance the game had left by rushed and not thought through multiclassing.
We are far beyond the point where empty promises like “next update” or “next year” can work, after all zos has long lost all of the players’ trust.

It is odd how devs grit their teeth and push changes that no one want while completely ignoring their players’ feedback when all this mentality achieves is making more players quit.
The recent question and answer event on
reddit only made things worse because it has been shown how out of touch with reality and game’s mechanics the combat team really is, that is to say completely.
Such blatant lack of care and effort on devs’ part is incredibly disappointing and tiring, the community is burned out by empty hopes and vain effort to help improve the game.

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

Yeah, sometimes I have detailed post ideas and I don't even bother because there's no point.

Thumbless_Bot · September 16

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

With u48 notes out eso has reached it’s lowest player pop in 6 years on steam and as this is obviously a general trend all launchers are likely to show the same picture.

Eso is experiencing a steady decline in player interest and count, yet all we get is u48 with absolutely no combat changes and u47 with a minimal number of those following u46 obliterating any semblance of balance the game had left by rushed and not thought through multiclassing.
We are far beyond the point where empty promises like “next update” or “next year” can work, after all zos has long lost all of the players’ trust.

It is odd how devs grit their teeth and push changes that no one want while completely ignoring their players’ feedback when all this mentality achieves is making more players quit.
The recent question and answer event on
reddit only made things worse because it has been shown how out of touch with reality and game’s mechanics the combat team really is, that is to say completely.
Such blatant lack of care and effort on devs’ part is incredibly disappointing and tiring, the community is burned out by empty hopes and vain effort to help improve the game.

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w0BbaObAw_k&pp=ygURc2tpbm55IGNoZWVrcyBlc2_SBwkJyQkBhyohjO8%3D

Gabriel_H · September 16

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

Fun Fact: The same thing was being said about WoW Devs 10+ years ago. The same thing was being said on WoW forums. The same thing over and over and over. The same things are being said right now. How's WoW doing?

As for "we" ... that would be the vocal minority whose opinions we see. That isn't a relfection of the whole playerbase. People come to the forums to complain, it's why the internet exists it seems.

Want to know what "screaming into the void" looks like? Arguing with a RL that your build is perfectly viable and you can get the job done without issue, despite not speccing what the likes of SkinnyCheeks claim is the new "meta".

Morvan · September 16

The game isn't dying, but it is shrinking—as expected when the combat team can’t respond to even a third of our feedback.

They released subclassing, which, to be honest, could have been great for the game and still provided class diversity if they had listened to our feedback to buff underperforming lines. Honestly, some lines are so bad—and the reasons so obvious—that it wouldn’t take much effort to make them at least decent without breaking anything.

Instead, they just nerfed the outliers, which barely changed anything, since Herald is still BiS. They completely ignored our feedback and are now investing in a PvP mode while leaving subclassing in the unacceptable state it’s in.

Don’t get me wrong, Update 46 was a good patch, but they should have gone full force in fixing its issues with Update 47. Now, once again, we’re being ignored in Update 48.

Not to mention how this new DLC system feels even emptier than what we had before, and as I mentioned before, the word “pass” does not carry a positive reputation among gamers and will only make people less interested, as they'll assume it's tied to limited time content.

Thumbless_Bot · September 16

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

Fun Fact: The same thing was being said about WoW Devs 10+ years ago. The same thing was being said on WoW forums. The same thing over and over and over. The same things are being said right now. How's WoW doing?

As for "we" ... that would be the vocal minority whose opinions we see. That isn't a relfection of the whole playerbase. People come to the forums to complain, it's why the internet exists it seems.

Want to know what "screaming into the void" looks like? Arguing with a RL that your build is perfectly viable and you can get the job done without issue, despite not speccing what the likes of SkinnyCheeks claim is the new "meta".

Fun fact: This isn't wow. Assuming what you assert is even true. Not sure about that.

Vocal minority? Fun fact: It's just a statement that isn't supported by anything. You have no idea what percentage of people are not happy. Also, Trying to frame an argument around a fallacy is pretty sad. You can figure out what fallacy on your own.

Fun fact: I have no idea what your last paragraph even means.

Gold25Dog · 12:01AM

I really enjoy the game overall - that said the absolute ridiculous handling of the in game gifting has me so angry that I actively steer people clear of the platform.

I login to get the daily reward and log out - I may on occasion buy something from the store if I see something I like - I refuse the play the game any further tho or try to get others to join me on the platform because of the gifting policy.

It is truly the absolute dumbest solution to gifting related fraud I think I have ever seen in a game

There - now that I have let that out I feel better. Maybe some day the decision makers will pull their heads out of their behinds and put together a real gifting policy that works for everyone.

Zyaneth_Bal · 12:18AM

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

With u48 notes out eso has reached it’s lowest player pop in 6 years on steam and as this is obviously a general trend all launchers are likely to show the same picture.

Eso is experiencing a steady decline in player interest and count, yet all we get is u48 with absolutely no combat changes and u47 with a minimal number of those following u46 obliterating any semblance of balance the game had left by rushed and not thought through multiclassing.
We are far beyond the point where empty promises like “next update” or “next year” can work, after all zos has long lost all of the players’ trust.

It is odd how devs grit their teeth and push changes that no one want while completely ignoring their players’ feedback when all this mentality achieves is making more players quit.
The recent question and answer event on
reddit only made things worse because it has been shown how out of touch with reality and game’s mechanics the combat team really is, that is to say completely.
Such blatant lack of care and effort on devs’ part is incredibly disappointing and tiring, the community is burned out by empty hopes and vain effort to help improve the game.

I think SkinnyCheeks put it best with his commentary on u48 that we are all "screaming into the void". Zos isn't listening to anyone but themselves and they have shown they are, as I have said before, willing to ride this iceberg right down to the equator. LONG LIVE THE SPREADSHEET!

All these post about subclassing, hybridization, cyro, vengeance, battlegrounds, crafting, etc. are like talking to a matte white wall in the hallway. you likely won't get a response and, if you do, you should probably question where it's coming from.

I realize that and it it does indeed feel like screaming into the void. I don’t expect any reaction, although I almost expected the thread to be deleted lol.

Gold25Dog · 12:34AM

Re-reading through this thread after my outburst I am reminded of my corporate life - I checked and it looks like there were layoffs back in July but not clear how that affected zos.

That said - I truly feel bad for those who are still working - if these layoffs are anything like what I have seen in other tech companies then I feel the true problem is in the absolute failure of executive level leadership to provide any meaningful guidance other than 'do stuff but don't spend any money'

Makes me angry but there is not really anything that can be done about it - greedy people suck (and also tend to be shortsighted and dumb).

tomofhyrule · 12:40AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Want to know what "screaming into the void" looks like? Arguing with a RL that your build is perfectly viable and you can get the job done without issue, despite not speccing what the likes of SkinnyCheeks claim is the new "meta".

So… because you are not able to get into trials, then all raiders are being petulant?

That actually sounds like a balance issue - if the game is so poorly balanced that only one meta setup is acceptable because everything else is miles behind, that suggests the game devs need to work on making things more viable.

Before U46, you could make the “but I’m a NB main and am able to parse on the same level as the Arcanists, so I can play along” argument. But after Subclassing, there is nothing that parses close to the Arcbladeplar or Arcbladeknight, and nothing that has the survivability or cleave or ease-of-use of Flail-Flail-Pragmatic Fatecarver. It’s a one-meta game because the devs aren’t bothering to balance the other lines. Literally the only reason to run anything other than meta is that you personally find it fun to play something else… and “but I want to have fun!” isn’t going to be enough of a reason for others to agree to carry someone who’s clearly underperforming… which anyone who isn’t running the meta is doing by nature.

Pevey · 12:47AM

Gold25Dog wrote: »

Re-reading through this thread after my outburst I am reminded of my corporate life - I checked and it looks like there were layoffs back in July but not clear how that affected zos.

That said - I truly feel bad for those who are still working - if these layoffs are anything like what I have seen in other tech companies then I feel the true problem is in the absolute failure of executive level leadership to provide any meaningful guidance other than 'do stuff but don't spend any money'

Makes me angry but there is not really anything that can be done about it - greedy people suck (and also tend to be shortsighted and dumb).

I absolutely agree that layoffs can be completely demoralizing to a team and kill any meaningful productivity for a long time after. I think anyone who has worked in large corporationa can commiserate.

That said, the issues with the combat team have been going on for many years now, way before the layoffs.

New players come to the game and find so much of it appealing but then quickly get frustrated. Many leave very quickly (the churn in this game is unreal--- ask anyone who manages guild applications and removal of inactives) and some stick around believing for a while the promises of great things coming soon. Some delusional diehards like us hang around a long time or at least keep peeking our heads back in to see what's up, but almost all eventually leave when they finally lose faith that ESO's long-standing problems might ever be addressed. Its gameplay systems were lacking from the start (they were okay, but far from top notch). Gameplay has only gotten worse, and on top of that, the systems are now 10 years outdated. C

People constantly come on these forums with the same feedback, and it is never listened to. If the combat team is still exactly the same, there is no reason for hope. A game with wonderful environments, epic quests, excellent voice acting (not saying ESO has all these--opinions will vary) is still a bad game if the gameplay is bad. It is just a walking simulator. There is a reason gamers use that phrase as a pejorative.

Gabriel_H · 4:56AM

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Fun fact: This isn't wow. Assuming what you assert is even true. Not sure about that.

It's an MMORPG with a playerbase, classes, and regular content drops, where everyone playing it has a different idea of what the game should look like - just like ESO.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vocal minority? Fun fact: It's just a statement that isn't supported by anything. You have no idea what percentage of people are not happy. Also, Trying to frame an argument around a fallacy is pretty sad. You can figure out what fallacy on your own.

Latest steam reviews paint a positive picture. I don't base statements on fallacies.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Fun fact: I have no idea what your last paragraph even means.

Yeah, I know. It's part of the problem.

Islyn · 5:03AM

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

Yup thats it, it's all over.
But ill take one for the team and when everyone decides to go send me your gold and materials and ill hang on long enough to collect them.

Can't decide if agree or awesome

SeaGtGruff · 5:25AM

ApoAlaia wrote: »

MMOs only die in one way: when the publisher pulls the plug.

1 million concurrent players would not 'save' the game from being sunset if the publisher decides is time.

Conversely the publisher can keep the game running with >25 concurrent players for as long as they see fit.

We have no agency here.

The game exists in spite of us, not because of us.

I would say rather that the game exists for us, but aside from that, I agree.

fizzybeef · 10:38AM

It actually feels like the game is dying

Koshka · 10:42AM

LikiLoki wrote: »

No matter what anyone says, the game is still good. Good for new players. The developer needs to focus on attracting fresh people. It would be more interesting for me to play if I saw new faces for whom this world is just opening up its secrets.

Big projects like this don't just die overnight unless they severely underperform at launch.
Usually it's just gradual decline that can take years, maybe even a decade. We are getting less content and less polished content these days, and combines with player stats, it doesn't look too great.
And yeah, the game is fine for new players, it offers 10 years worth of content, after all. But games like this need a healthy population of dedicated players. Sure, selling new copies is important, but it's not sustainable if the game cannot retain it's playerbase.

Xarc · 11:00AM

fizzybeef wrote: »

It actually feels like the game is dying

September has always been a period of low pop on ESO (more or less high intensity)

BTW
Knowing this, and when I see the September daily rewards month, and the what are actual Golden Pursuits rewards, I think that ZOS could reward the most loyal players even more. But hey... that's just my opinion