Stridig wrote: »

I think they should do a "vengeance test" in PvE. No gear sets, no passives, no choices. Just a group of 12 people in a trial with boilerplate builds. Just to see if lag is reduced there too. Oh, and to see if people enjoy it.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

If ZOS is going to force templated builds on PvP, then they should do it for PvE too. The PvE players have been posting for months how much better it is that way, so that's apparently what they want for themselves in PvE zones too.

JustLovely wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I think they should do a "vengeance test" in PvE. No gear sets, no passives, no choices. Just a group of 12 people in a trial with boilerplate builds. Just to see if lag is reduced there too. Oh, and to see if people enjoy it.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

If ZOS is going to force templated builds on PvP, then they should do it for PvE too. The PvE players have been posting for months how much better it is that way, so that's apparently what they want for themselves in PvE zones too.

100%

Traditionally speaking, 'Template' builds are where you have no choice in any of the skills you run, hence asking the question, because vengeance has plenty of choice in that area.

I think the point about a formal road map is important. Whilst people may imply things from questions asked, understanding a more detailed picture of what vengeance tests will come and properly understanding what they are shooting for - then people can have real opinions on vengeance. All they have really said is making epic fights and increasing performance, like there were X years ago. Great, but what are you planning on testing what, when are glyphs, mundus, armor etc being tested? I'm fully expecting ZoS to do tests with these in due course.

JustLovely wrote: »

It's not "the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players...." That's what players who don't want to tackle the huge learning curve that is Cyrodiil PvP like to cry about.

If I want to learn to swim, is throwing me out to the deep sea (vet cyro) the most efficient way, or should I rather start learning in a more adapted environment, like a swimming pool?

SolarRune wrote: »

Traditionally speaking, 'Template' builds are where you have no choice in any of the skills you run, hence asking the question, because vengeance has plenty of choice in that area.

I think the point about a formal road map is important. Whilst people may imply things from questions asked, understanding a more detailed picture of what vengeance tests will come and properly understanding what they are shooting for - then people can have real opinions on vengeance. All they have really said is making epic fights and increasing performance, like there were X years ago. Great, but what are you planning on testing what, when are glyphs, mundus, armor etc being tested? I'm fully expecting ZoS to do tests with these in due course.

A formal road map would definitely help cure all the paranoia and conspiracy. Just that I doubt such a thing even exists. At this point, I'm fairly uncertain whether the testing itself follows a clear plan, or are those tests adjusted every time? And even ZOS might not yet know whether they will ever be enabling an alternative campaign.

Stridig wrote: »

I think they should do a "vengeance test" in PvE. No gear sets, no passives, no choices. Just a group of 12 people in a trial with boilerplate builds. Just to see if lag is reduced there too. Oh, and to see if people enjoy it.

Brilliant and well stated. This is, in my opinion, an opportunistic attack on the PvP community from the lounge chair comfort of PVE loyalists who largely find live Cyrodil PvP distasteful. No concerns at all for the PvP dedicated player's toil over the years to endlessly optimize in the margins for victory in Cyrodil (precisely the PVE approach to their game). Now they get to weigh in on our future. Can you imagine the reaction if we encroached on their PVE world world with a "template vengeance test"?

With all respect to each of us showing deep compassion about the game we love, It would be massively helpful if we could get, at the very least, some assurance that the current Live Cyrodil, playing freely and without restrictions, will exist alongside with whatever Vengeance format takes form. Surely, there must be room for both of us in this amazing game.

It's really sad how some always seek division and to blame other groups of players for things that zos is doing.

Perhaps this is a result of zos refusing to communicate or respond, so people feel the need to lash out at *someone*.

But guess what... actual pve players largely don't *care* what zos is doing in cyro, did *not* request vengeance testing, have not been demanding every day that zos "fix cyro" for years, and would be totally fine with zos stopping vengeance and putting that effort back into other aspects of the game that are of interest to them.

And it's also not the fault of pve players that zos asked *everyone* for feedback. So yeah, some may have tried vengeance and offered feedback on it like they were asked to do. One would think the pvp community, which has been dwindling and could really use some new blood and renewed interest from outside of its core community, could see this as an opportunity rather than an attack. Sorry not sorry that some players expressed outside opinions from beyond the echo chamber - but I promise you pve players didn't arrange this as some kind of "opportunistic attack" on pvp. It was literally promoted to them.

Go place the blame where it belongs. Zos has pretty much always decided what they're gonna do, ignored detailed and valuable feedback from devoted players, and refused to communicate effectively or interactively about what they're doing.

Blaming and provoking other players might feel good in the short term, but does absolutely nothing to move the issue forward, offers no actionable feedback, and indeed, takes accountability away from those who should be accountable.

JustLovely wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Darethran wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I did benefit from those tests that led to no-proc RW - it resulted in a new player friendly environment to learn pvp and I was able to improve, although not as far as I would like to because it got aborted.

Am I the only one who thinks vengeance tests are radically different from other tests that zos have run in the past?

Edit spelling

No you're not, it's just the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players with silly broken sets & skills (always the new stuff that came with the latest DLC...) don't want that changed.

As someone who has played on/off since 2016 ZoS has done nothing like this with PvP before. I'm still so thirsty for third vengeance now that I got a taste of what PvP could have been all these years.

It's not "the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players...." That's what players who don't want to tackle the huge learning curve that is Cyrodiil PvP like to cry about. I agree it's a lot different than PvE, but it's supposed to be. There is supposed to be a skill gap. The daily PvP main players are supposed to be better and stronger than the "on and off" players such as yourself.

ZOS is going to lose most of the PvP vets if they mandate vengeance mode, and the PvE mains are not going to backfill the losses. Vengeance will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP for the most part. At least your admitting that you're only an off and on player. Those of us that PvP every day and that's what we log in to play will not play vengeance in any iteration.

The daily PvP players should be better than „on and off“ players by making better incombat decisions not by having better stats.
If you swap their accounts than you also swap their strength.

Not true.

Part of the skill gap in PvP comes from learning how to make strong builds and play to that builds strengths. It's not just get a couple OP sets and you automatically win....as the PvE mains keep saying is the only trick to being successful in Cyrodiil. Those that say the only trick is to get OP sets are saying that they don't PvP or understand the system as it's set up.

This^

The guys that are best at PvP aren't just good players, they're good builders. So yes, the gear can and does make a notable difference. But a bad player can have the best build and they'll get rolled over and over again to a skilled player with a lesser build every time.

Stridig wrote: »

I think they should do a "vengeance test" in PvE. No gear sets, no passives, no choices. Just a group of 12 people in a trial with boilerplate builds. Just to see if lag is reduced there too. Oh, and to see if people enjoy it.

Overlap it with a PvP event with some of the best rewards in the game, too. Really make the grind worthwhile. (I am VERY salty about Undaunted completely overlapping with Vengeance)

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If PVE had zero population, terrible performance, and a decade long track record of failed attempts to improve both, then such a test would be warranted.

Vengeance critics always miss this part, acting as if ZOS has nothing better to do than torment them, and not subject the rest of the community to these sorts of tests.

PvE having a huge population with few issues is why DPS dungeon queues are so long? Trials are difficult for which to find groups? Personally I've been server kicked from PvE instances far more than in PvP and have had equally bad performance issues in trials as PvP. Don't even get me started on the quest bugs. Meanwhile, Cyrodiil is population locked during primetime and PUGs are almost always running. There's good and bad aspects of both PvE and PvP.

What's annoying PvPers is PvEers coming into Vengeance and saying it's better and "outvoting" what actual PvPers say; there's more PvEer than PvPers. People who main PvP have to do a LOT of PvE to get their sets and resources et cetera, so why can't we do something like a Vengeance test there too? PvPers should be able to go into vet trials without creating and testing and spending resources on an appropriate PvE build then, right? It's about skill after all, isn't it? Personally, I would highly prefer not having to spend resources and time figuring out a PvE build, it feels fair since I don't care about PvE besides what I can get out of it.

Your DPS ques are long because nobody wants to tank and healing is only necessary for the hardest content such that healers are often seen as an afterthought.

It is not hard to find a trials group. Craglorn is full of people looking to PUG them and there are far more PvE oriented guilds that run them regularly. I would hope Cyrodiil would lock its tiny pop cap for a few hours on prime time, and they manage to do this - barely. As a DC, I often get a single digit que if I have to wait at all. Not a ringing endorsement.

There are more PvEers than PvPers for a reason, which is essentially the crux of the issue here. If not enough PvPers are coming out to support the game or vote enough to convince ZOS that PvP in its current weight is worth investing in, that speaks for itself.

Ideally, no, you shouldn't be able to walk into a vet trial without investing any resources in an appropriate build. But the reality of the situation is that you can, right now, without any need for a Vengeance test. The BIS PvE gear is only a few percentage points better than craftable crit oriented gear setup based on something like Order's Wrath. A skilled played with Order's will out DPS a noob with the best gear by quite a bit. Besides, because PvE is more about outputting enough DPS to defeat the final boss rather than playing better than a human opponent, as long as you are good enough (or with ten other really good players), you can win PVE all the time, regardless of gear. So, there isn't a need for BIS gear unless you are looking to finish first on a leaderboard. PvE is much more about player skill than it is about gear. You already have your wish; you need not worry about spending time and resources figuring out a PvE build (not that it was particularly hard to do so: 30 second Google search or just go to SkinnyCheek's website).

As much as the Vengeance critics keep bagging on Vengeance as EZ mode or dumbed down for PvEers, the reality is that it also is much more about player skill than anything else. A mid player can not and will not beat a very good player in Vengeance. This was especially true in the second Vengeance test because Vengeance isn't what its critics keep saying - everyone in the same build (even if it was, players being exactly equal would be the ultimate test of player skill) - and those who have the knowledge, skill, and experience were able to use all that to take advantage of the more options that were available in the second test.

So, no, I don't buy that player skill is the crux of the reason behind the criticism of Vengeance. I think it's exactly what you said: more people are voicing their preference for a different version of PvP than what the few remaining regulars prefer and play. They thus feel threatened that what they prefer will be replaced by what has greater appeal to the ESO population. Which is legit. These regulars are paying customers and deserve to have their feelings/concerns voiced. That's fine. But that is the reality of being a paying customer to a strictly niche product. What ZOS is doing isn't motivated by anything personal against PvPers. The idea that ZOS should just pull a Vengeance test on PvEers is not a good comparison as doing so would be primarily motived by personal reasons.

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I think having a vengeance like test for PvE would be an awesome idea since pve has serious lag and performance issues for months now.

I mean for me as an avid pvp player pve is unfortunately just a unnecessary but mandatory grind to farm gear and unlock skills. How about making it easier accessible to PvPers who don't enjoy PvE by making template PvE builds too? That's really a good idea.

Thanks for inspiring.

This! I think PvE should be more about skill than sets. Just figure out the best set up using only your class and weapon abilities; why bother with all that set farming and leveling or gear or anything? If you can light attack weave and push all your buttons before the little timer runs out that'll get you through the trifectas eventually! Think about how much more accessible it is if someone can log on without ever doing anything but join a veteran trial, as long as they have the skills. It's not like that makes it a completely different game or anything. Just think about all the players who will find this version of PvE better! PvErs who disliked PvP just avoided it before, then returned for vengeance and discovered they liked that better, so imagine how much people might come to like Vengeance PvE!

This might be a little hard for that tiny number of existing endgame PvErs who put time and effort into getting gear sets and unlocking skill lines mastering their build and coordinating with their groups and playing the actual game et cetera but the people want what the people want, and what I want is to walk into a trial butt nekkid and do the same dps as a 3600cp trifecta collecting sweat.

Heavy attack builds for everyone!

ceruulean wrote: »

Man, these arguments against Vengeance are weird. Nobody is going in naked to veteran trials. There's multiple times more normal mode trials listed in the group finder than there are veteran trials. So, for PvE, normal mode is more popular than veteran. Why? Because normal mode is easier, and you can literally enter them naked, starting at level 10, and have a fair chance at completing. I'd argue most of the PvE population already prefers "template PvE" where "gear doesn't matter."

I mean, I can see why some PvPers are upset that "veteran Cyrodiil" is being taken down for 1 week, but Cyrodiil is also more complicated than instanced trials, and its nature of being a shared server with hundred of players means it cannot be compared to instanced trials, of which only 12 players are needed. Cyrodiil is actually more similar to the PvE overworld, which is scaled to your level and "equalized" to the point of being trivial.

Well said.

I was wondering about this sudden raging at PvEers, but I guess it must be down to Vengeance haters running out of arguments.