Your Play Experience b/t Update 45 and Update 46 with Subclassing and Scribing In Base Game

fufu_from_ps4 · August 8

diamondo wrote: »

Rhonemus wrote: »

Except that the classes are not balanced, ESPECIALLY for "Pure" classes vs subclasses.

Subclassed skills should be a weaker...more "Watered Down" version of all non-class skills and abilities. Thus leaving "Pure" classes THEIR full strength skills/abilities.

Otherwise, there is no advantage too, or for any classes wanting to remain "Pure", as it is simply put, unfair to them.

Agreed I’ve discovered this in PVP subclasses builds have such an advantage. I’m sure some top tier players can make it work but I’m a middle of the range PVPer and have noticed a substantial drop in my ability to compete

nah bro. i mastered every class, mained magsorc.... i cant run magsorc this patch. my magsorc vs my subclass build.... i would stomp my magsorc. the difference in power isnt even close. pureclass is obsolete.

Wup_sa · August 9

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

What game content was it?

No, I had to improve my pure dk to be fully minmaxed, with a very optimized build to compete with subclassing metabuilds.

I had to slot more healing debuffs and build a lot more into damage, so that I could have even a chance against the increase to healing and tankyness.

Content was PvP.

Subclassing has given us the worst update in ESO for PvP, which has been voiced ever since this was introduced. I wish the devs would communicate with us more about the issue, instead of leaving us in the dark like everytime.

albertberku · August 9

I have an idea about what could be helpful in PvP. Since a lot of new subclass builds stack damage lines, and they have so much damage just from the passives and burst combos they can go high hp/resistance/resource/speed builds and still have high damage without downsides. But what if they change the damage line passives so that they always scale with the amount of skills slotted. Because most of the passives give flat damage/crit increase.

Lets consider this build: Storm Calling + Assasination + Grave Lord: Master Assassin (crit), Hemorrage (crit), Energized (dmg), Amplitude (dmg), Death Knell (crit), Dismember (penetration), Rapid Rot (dmg). As an example i will give Dismember, it gives you ~3k penetration when a Grave Lord ability is active. What if they changed it so that it will give you ~1k instead for each ability slotted up to ~3k being max.

With the build i mentioned curently you can spawn blastbones get behind it, which makes it impossible to be targeted (and with my dmg build pure magsorc i cant kill the blastbones in one shot with my instant frags + overload, it has quite a lot of hp, as well) and streak 5 or 6 times with very high regen and armors, because they do not need to invest anything in damage to have high damage, they instead just invest everything in defence/mobility and still have higher damage than pure class high dmg builds.

albertberku · August 10

I made a long clip of an encounter i had earlier today. I play max magicka/max dmg pure magsorc and the other player has a subclass build. They are fast they can keep chasing me, they can heal to the full health if i dont one shot all ~35k health, can dodge any amount of times without ressource problems, they have better damage than me that i cant duel them, and they have the ressources to keep this going forever. Basically running in one direction, spamming light attack poison injection from far away and having proc set.

I have shared this one, since this fight was particularly annoying, at some point i just didnt want to fight against that build, but i cant sit on the damage because it was so high, and it is not easy to kill that build, i also didnt want to streak away since all the fight was going on there and wanted to just watch others fighting, so at some point i just started circling there and they kept chasing me, it was tiring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5bwnsBp98

albertberku · August 10

Here is another encounter against a Ardent Flame (DK) + Storm Calling (Sorc) + Aedric Spear (Templar), 3 Damage Skill Lines. They have so much damage that i can barely stay near them for a full second, and they can keep up with a pure magsorc 6x streak, they have that much mobility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Yq8HPuCmc

Now, lets see the same build in a 1vX scenario, they have enough regen to be able to hold 4 people for almost 2 minutes (notice how he was getting damaged all the time and having no problem with healing continuosly, effectively overcoming the damage numbers, streaking and dodging couple times in between), has decent armor and enough hp that they cant be one-shotted with burst combos. Remember this build has 3 damage skill lines, having extremely high damage, what is lacking in this build? Hp? Resistances? Mobility? Regen?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Ay_O0lRgY

YandereGirlfriend · August 10

Both Scribing and subclassing have been A+ additions to the game. For creative players, it has been a godsend for build variety and theming potential.

As with all things, though, the balancing could be greatly improved, as there are clear outliers in both directions:

1. Assassination's crazy infusion of raw Crit Chance and the obvious OP status of Beam (and the Herald line in general) cry-out for their power to be redistributed elsewhere within their class kits.

2. And then the true bottom-feeder skill lines need massive buffing, things like Shadow, Dark Magic, Siphoning, and Draconic Power.

Similarly, there are clear winners and losers within Scribing, with some abilities being must-slot (Ulfsild's, Soul skills) and others being un-slottable (Fighters Guild Torch, Vault). There is also strange imbalance between which buffs are able to be sourced from which skills and why some buffs, such as Minor Mending, are completely unable to be sourced at all. Rather than nerfing things like Ulfsild's, it would be much better to simply buff the underperformers. If you can make players think, "Dang, these are ALL so good, I don't know which one to pick!" it is the sure sign of success.

But those are all implementation details that can and hopefully will be ironed-out in a relatively short time.

Mesite · August 10

Once subclassing and scribing came in, the possibilities seemed endless so I was just too indecisive to decide which of my many characters should subclass. I fed my horses on some of my characters then when the Golden Scribing event appeared it just demoralised me as I decided I couldn't face any more tutorials after so many years of playing. I uninstalled the game.

Then at the weekend I spotted the Golden crafting event and ESO+ trial so I reinstalled it and did some crafting as it was a familiar process. I'm not going to dedicate time to re-develop any of my characters at the moment. Or work on scribing. ESO is still installed though. I might just feed my horses a while longer before I think again about subclassing.

Although I realise I could just play the same classes without subclassing but then it feels like I'd be missing out.

Araneae6537 · August 11

I’ve been busy leveling up the various skill lines and trying different builds on different characters. Having already heard that nerfs are coming in U47, I haven’t tried vet arenas or seeing if I can get further in IA or optimized my gear beyond reshuffling sets I already had; I would be upset if I put together a new build only for it to become unworkable in a week.

But I have been very pleased with what I have tried! Some of my characters I am perfectly happy with keeping one class, others switch out one skill line, two I wish I could switch out for two skill lines from another class to optimize how I’d like to play them, lol, but I shall not be greedy and I have so many more options now!

My sorcs are fun to play again! I was bored of oakensorc, so one has become an elementalist (Storm Calling + Ardent Flame + Winter’s Embrace) while another is a “daedralogist” (Daedric Summoning + Storm Calling + Herald of the Tome). My sorc tank will probably switch out Dark Magic for Winter’s Embrace to keep the storm theme going.

My first necro I created because I wanted to create a character like Vastarie (I started with Elsweyr) and was disappointed that there was no D&D cleric-like skill to smite or take control of undead! Well, now he can get closer to the feel anyway with Restoring Light while I feel that the combination of Green Balance + Siphoning + Living Death fits the circle of life theme I was going for with my warden healer. I like my templar healer as he is, but if the group needs a mass rez or minor toughness, I can swap those in rather than have to bring a different character.

I don’t know whether Zen’kosh DK is still a thing, but I’m enjoying the build with Ardent Flame + Grave Lord + Dawn’s Wrath. That’s probably more than enough examples — main thing is it’s made the game more fun for me. I’ll see how I do in harder content in various roles next update.

YandereGirlfriend · August 11

Premise: Spammables are the "signature" ability of a DPS character and they are responsible for most of the overall theming, vibes, and identity of a build.

Given that, one thing that subclassing highlights is the vast imbalance between various class spammable options, either on the damage and effect tuning of the spammable itself or simply because an otherwise good skill is locked behind an overall bad skill line that equates to taking a hard self-nerf in order to run.

Specifically, the single-target spammables for most classes need significant love (in order to justify using them versus easier and better options such as simply playing Arcanist or using Jabs); skills like:

1. Swallow Soul (very poor damage in an overall bad line for damage; even with Soulcleaver the damage remains mediocre; you can get HOTs on any Scribing skill so that should no longer be a reason to suppress its damage tuning)

2. Crystal Frags (decent damage but is in an overall abysmal line for damage; cast time ability should have significantly higher base damage)

3. Flame Lash (always overshadowed by Molten Whip passive Weapon Damage effect; Off Balance effect uptime is too low to justify using but is otherwise a very neat idea; consider making the bonus damage and stylish animation an always-on feature of the morph)

4. Ricochet Skulls (mini-cleave is awful as a morph effect vs. the Poison Skulls effect; consider boosting base damage or always applying Burning, etc.)

5. Solar Flare (Empower makes zero sense on this skill and Defile is useless in PvE; cast time ability should have significantly higher base damage; overshadowed completely by Solar Barrage)

6. Crystal Weapon (this feels like an ability lost to time at this point; it was over-nerfed years ago due to PvP and sees basically zero use in any format currently; probably a prime morph for another total redesign into something perhaps AOE)

If these un-loved class spammables are brought back up to par it would be a huge boon for allowing thematic builds to be more competitive with the obvious meta choices and would overall be a huge win for the players and for the game.

albertberku · August 11

I am going to comment about sorcerer frags, since i am using them in PvP as spammable. They have slightly higher damage than spammables and even though it is actually hard to use them as spammable there is no effectiveness loss due to the cast time, because it is under 1 sec, which is the global cooldown. So you can cast them in succession as how you would do with any other spammable. Main downside is that you have to have the target for the whole casting time in sight for it to be casted and fired properly.

And about the Crystal Weapon morph, i actually see them in my damage received metrics quite a lot at times when i die. It was never too unpopular before but recently with absurd combos subclassing allowing like blastbones + overload + merciless + kjalnar, they just add crystal on top of it (as if that combo not enough alone :P ) and then stun with undodgable/unblockable AoE stun streak.

YandereGirlfriend · August 11

albertberku wrote: »

I am going to comment about sorcerer frags, since i am using them in PvP as spammable. They have slightly higher damage than spammables and even though it is actually hard to use them as spammable there is no effectiveness loss due to the cast time, because it is under 1 sec, which is the global cooldown. So you can cast them in succession as how you would do with any other spammable. Main downside is that you have to have the target for the whole casting time in sight for it to be casted and fired properly.

And about the Crystal Weapon morph, i actually see them in my damage received metrics quite a lot at times when i die. It was never too unpopular before but recently with absurd combos subclassing allowing like blastbones + overload + merciless + kjalnar, they just add crystal on top of it (as if that combo not enough alone :P ) and then stun with undodgable/unblockable AoE stun streak.

The significant downside in PvP is that you can't block-cast them, are snared, and are subject to Interrupt -> Stuns, none of which are issues faced by using instant-cast spammables.

Given all of that inherent risk, there needs to be more reward than there is. Otherwise, just use Force Pulse + Frags proc and get the best of both worlds with zero risk at all (plus a free Interrupt on your spammable).

tomofhyrule · August 11

I do want to make another anecdotal observation I've had in the weeks since U46's release.

I run content with two main types of players - the sweaty high-end DLC trial HM crowd, and the much more casual social guild running standard vets and dipping their toes into some dungeon HMs.

As to subclassing: the high-end players all go directly into it and build to the meta because their goal is to get content done faster. The other group mostly has kept their builds the same; either they like their characters the way they are, or they built based on a character lore, or whatever.

What I've seen is that the damage of the high-end (who do subclass, and specifically go for the meta) has exponentially increased. The more casual end... has mostly gone down. They're not getting to the damage level they had even before Subclassing was a thing due to individual line nerfs, and their goal is not to be forced to Subclass for personal reasons, which means their efficacy has backslid.

This means the gap between the mid-level and high-level players is only increasing. Sure, you have some from the mid-level who are trying to get into the high end by picking "the right" lines, but for anyone who really wants to "play the way you want," they're barely able to be at the point they were at before the patch.

I also want to address the "buff, don't nerf" idea. Yes, nerfs are never fun, and U35 was a major problem because of all the nerfs (which again the high-end players quickly bounced back from, but the mid-level players were kneecapped and struggled to build back up from there). However, a power infusion of over 50% is ridiculous. It should simply not be possible for some of the apex-tier strategies to be possible, like how they can skip a majority of HM mechanics just by doing more damage.

I don't know how possible it is for ZOS to specifically "raise the floor and lower the ceiling," since that's been the stated goal every time and every time it only seems to do the opposite. But the levels of damage right now are nothing short of ridiculous. We already know that barely any players anymore have ever even seen Lunar in MoL, and now we're going to be getting to a point where trials like vDSR are like "Taleria bridges? What's that?"

Parasaurolophus · August 12

This thread has drowned in off-topic. Guys, no one is asking you what and how needs to be fixed. Just leave your feedback here and that’s it.

YandereGirlfriend · August 12

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

This thread has drowned in off-topic. Guys, no one is asking you what and how needs to be fixed. Just leave your feedback here and that’s it.

Pretty sure that it says, "Any and all feedback is welcome" literally in the original post, so... that's what people are doing.

Renato90085 · August 12

oh and i want update my Experience
i as a healer start doing vlc trifecta in U45,and we start pte in u45
U46 we finished vlc trifecta,but i feel my healer hard than old patch
because this meta not need other class dd or sup set ,healer and tank just a drink pot style artro/colo robot
i think all class better rework they skill line like now sorc(a skill line have all role skill

diamondo · August 14

It’s nice to see some videos going up on YouTube about pure vs subclassed builds I genuinely hope this is not something that gets the
“If we ignore it long enough it goes away treatment” by zos

Flavius_Mercurius · August 14

I had two characters it saved completely. I only saved them in the first place because they were fully leveled up but they were unplayable, subclassing saved them and made them worthy of play rotation.

huskandhunger · August 15

Subclassing feels mandatory now to keep up competitively in PVE and PVP. I miss my old Templar class abilities which I felt accustomed and flowed well together across their three skill lines.

I feel displeased and disappointed in how this has impacted my play experience in the game as it is a marked departure from the well-defined class themes we had before and feels recklessly added to the game.

diamondo · August 16

huskandhunger wrote: »

Subclassing feels mandatory now to keep up competitively in PVE and PVP. I miss my old Templar class abilities which I felt accustomed and flowed well together across their three skill lines.

I feel displeased and disappointed in how this has impacted my play experience in the game as it is a marked departure from the well-defined class themes we had before and feels recklessly added to the game.

It shouldn’t feel like a requirement, having stepped back into game play again today and got blitzed by a few variations of subclasses builds in PvP. Players are refining subclassed builds so I’m getting left further behind for wanting to play the way I want to which is running pure class build.

I’m giving it another 2/3 months and hopefully there will be some. Buffs for pure class builds if not I’m gonna delete the game, it’s just not fun for me anymore

Araneae6537 · August 17

Got further in IA in offensive armor (which sometimes made Sharp nervous with how low my health would go!) but it was fun and I not only got further but am enjoying my “daedralogist” build (Tome Herald + Storm Calling + Daedra Summoning) much more than the oakensorc build I used before! Plus, it feels fitting for this character, after all the time she’s spent in the Archive, the Arcanist abilities seem like a natural evolution for her character.

Parasaurolophus · August 17

diamondo wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Subclassing feels mandatory now to keep up competitively in PVE and PVP. I miss my old Templar class abilities which I felt accustomed and flowed well together across their three skill lines.

I feel displeased and disappointed in how this has impacted my play experience in the game as it is a marked departure from the well-defined class themes we had before and feels recklessly added to the game.

It shouldn’t feel like a requirement, having stepped back into game play again today and got blitzed by a few variations of subclasses builds in PvP. Players are refining subclassed builds so I’m getting left further behind for wanting to play the way I want to which is running pure class build.

I’m giving it another 2/3 months and hopefully there will be some. Buffs for pure class builds if not I’m gonna delete the game, it’s just not fun for me anymore

No, ZoS won’t do this. A subclass is the same kind of system as all the others. Do we have an alternative to the Champion System, or to Mythic items? No.

diamondo · August 18

Well I sure hope something can be done To help all the players left behind by this. Was it not said that subclassing was brought in to allow players to play the way they want, well what if players want to stick with their native skill lines, it seems a bit unfair that they are left behind for playing the way they want to play

MGRza · August 19

diamondo wrote: »

Well I sure hope something can be done To help all the players left behind by this. Was it not said that subclassing was brought in to allow players to play the way they want, well what if players want to stick with their native skill lines, it seems a bit unfair that they are left behind for playing the way they want to play

It was said yes, but in all honesty, it was just said as a placeholder, because as the months go by and the individual skills and skill lines get tweaked and balanced, it's not going to be pure class changes it is meant for how the majority is playing the game at those times, which will be subclassed.

Subclassing is the new standard, that's all there is to it, I myself sit with several pure roleplay builds that need to be changed now, again...

disky · August 19

I haven't read a lot of this thread but I'm guessing there's a significant amount of negativity. I just want to chime in and say that, while I don't engage in some of the more intensive gameplay this game has to offer, I appreciate the feature for character concept reasons. I hope ZOS isn't discouraged by the initial feedback and continues to balance things out to make it work for everyone.

diamondo · August 20

@MGRza well I hope your wrong as there does appear to be a not a small amount of the player base that does not want to subclass. If this thread is anything to go by.

Either way clarification would be nice.

MGRza · August 20

diamondo wrote: »

@MGRza well I hope your wrong as there does appear to be a not a small amount of the player base that does not want to subclass. If this thread is anything to go by.

Either way clarification would be nice.

I hope so, too, hey, but given how some of the skills have been changed to better balance out subclassing options, it seems evident that a couple of months from now, all the skill lines might have gone through similar changes to bring them more in line.

I could be wrong though... Time will tell.

SkaiFaith · August 20

I previously praised subclassing 'cause it made my alts way more powerful, and this stands true, HOWEVER I discovered that my soloist pure Warden has become less powerful by subclassing the way I did with any other character.
Don't get me wrong, it is strong, but a pure Warden remains the way to go to solo, IMO.
Subclassing remains good for accessibility in my case, but now I'm studying how to manage my Warden to return to its previous capabilities and I think it will have to return pure Warden...
Luckily we have the Armory system so I'll keep both builds

diamondo · August 21

Well I think simply subclassing is very overpowered from what I’ve seen there two main builds of which are Templar, sorc and NB. Or warden, sorc and NB

People because they will, will manipulate the meta and I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve been hit with dawn breaker, scorch, and then bow proc. Or incap, javelin, then bow proc. All the while hurricanes going on which has always been a stupidly op skill anyway.

Honestly it’s like all players have been minted out of the same factory.

The simple way to solve this is continued balancing of subclassing and this can be achieved. By say keeping your native skill lines you get increased effectiveness of your skills.
Or for each subclassed skill line your skills cost more.

Come on Zos you changed track on ultimate generation you can do something about subclassing

StihlReign · August 25

Subclassing continues to feel like something someone pushed who doesn't engage in actual gameplay.

The devs sit on the sideline monitoring (yaaay), while players wait for some sense of build congruency or continuity. Since 10+ years of theorycrafting was haphazardly tossed in the trash pile with little precursor, I'd love to see the devs theory-craft and publish a few hundred builds for us.

Simple ask I'm sure - there's 6M+ armor combinations and this was before they scrapped the class system to give everyone more "choice".

The system in place is garbage to play against in PvP and seems mostly useless other than thematically from most of the comments I've read thus far. The game is quiet everywhere, the updates uninspiring (thanks for the bug fixes), and we're all twiddling our thumbs waiting for some signal that says the devs get it.

The real question is how long does it take to get through?

Unkillable players - not fun.
Tank Meta - not fun.
Resources without doors - not fun.
Indestructible resources - not fun.
Heal stacking - not fun.
Invis bombers - not fun.
Shield stacking - not fun.
Auto armors - not fun.
Broken doors - not fun.
Unreliable block - not fun.
Archive no save - not fun.

This reads like an ESO troll's dream...

TheValkyn · August 29

You can’t have subclasses with delayed, stackable damage abilities like bugs, contingency and merciless resolve (back to back? Terrible idea). The burst potential is just way too high.

The concept of subclasses was not thought out at all.

The only way subclasses might work is if they reintroduced soft caps and balanced the game similar to how it was before patch 1.6.

There’s a reason Cyrodiil is completely empty. This new system and patch is absolute, pure garbage. I’ve never seen something this god awful added into a game since DC Universe Online added weapon mastery and advanced mechanics in 2014. Guess what happened to that game when it did? PvP in it died and the game has been a ghost town since.

I do hope ZOS stops making these terrible gameplay design decisions. This is so disappointing to see.