Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

So as we all know, they kind of messed up the Necromancer & turned a Sorceror into a Necromancer. So what i recommend is rework them. Turn the Necromancer into what it supposed to be, a Pet & MInion class. Able to summon daedra pets & using skeletons is minions during the fight, using the corpse mechanic so it stays within lore and current class but reworked to be a proper pet and minion class.
Sorcerer gets turned into a pure high damage class, No pets but has higher dps and DoT. Light attacks that does burst, poison & DoT attacks. Turning the class into a class focused on damage, healing & DoT, giving it both support and damage dealer abilities. Almost like its now, but pets are removed and gets spells that buffs your dps.

Currently the Necro got mixed up and this way it gets fixed, while not much changes are needed. Only Necro being focused around support & minions/pets. So then its still tanking but added dps with its perma pets & temporary minions & Sorceror gets reworked to being pure damage & heal

This is not WoW or Diablo, it's ESO. If you NEED necro to have pets then simply go play those games. I have both my sorc and necro where I want them to be no, plz don't redo the class because 1 person wants to change ESO into Diablo...

Kwik1 wrote: »

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

So as we all know, they kind of messed up the Necromancer & turned a Sorceror into a Necromancer. So what i recommend is rework them. Turn the Necromancer into what it supposed to be, a Pet & MInion class. Able to summon daedra pets & using skeletons is minions during the fight, using the corpse mechanic so it stays within lore and current class but reworked to be a proper pet and minion class.
Sorcerer gets turned into a pure high damage class, No pets but has higher dps and DoT. Light attacks that does burst, poison & DoT attacks. Turning the class into a class focused on damage, healing & DoT, giving it both support and damage dealer abilities. Almost like its now, but pets are removed and gets spells that buffs your dps.

Currently the Necro got mixed up and this way it gets fixed, while not much changes are needed. Only Necro being focused around support & minions/pets. So then its still tanking but added dps with its perma pets & temporary minions & Sorceror gets reworked to being pure damage & heal

This is not WoW or Diablo, it's ESO. If you NEED necro to have pets then simply go play those games. I have both my sorc and necro where I want them to be no, plz don't redo the class because 1 person wants to change ESO into Diablo...

I wouldn't know, never played either. Its basic common sense. A sorceror is full damage, a necromancer is a summoner

Kwik1 wrote: »

Sure, and let's just keep making every game the same...you know, homogenize them all

[snip] Keep to the topic rather than needing to leave negativity over a common complaint. This has been an issue for years. [snip] They don't understand what a Necromancer is, they mixed up the classes

[edited for baiting]

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

Sure, and let's just keep making every game the same...you know, homogenize them all

[snip] Keep to the topic rather than needing to leave negativity over a common complaint. This has been an issue for years. [snip] They don't understand what a Necromancer is, they mixed up the classes

I'm not. My point is, just because other games have necro's with pets does not mean in ANY way that EVERY GAME needs necro's to have pets.

ESO has established their characters over the last 10-12 years and they have done an amazing job.

I personally do not feel we need to make ESO like other games by copying their characters. I appreciate that ESo took thei own path.

If you feel that is trolling I am sorry but I have a different opinion and prefer ESO stay on their current path.

[edited to remove quote]

That's why i suggested the Necromancer should take over the Sorceror's summons. Realistic a Necromancer will know how to summon daedra & entities. Skyrim is a prime example.
A Sorceror is a high damage dealer with mage abilities too

That wouldn't work. You're thinking in only terms of DPS. Especially since the Sorcerer class is seen as a "newbie" class since those pets help support newcomers in the beginning on Overland content. As well as, the thing is though that Sorcerers do conjure Daedra as minions. Depending on the morph and build, the summons can fill multiple roles. As for Necromancers, they actually are not really supposed to be summoning Daedra. The problem is that you may be thinking of the Worm Cult, which is a Necromancer faction, yes, but, it is also a faction that has non-Necromancers in it that fill other roles, such as summoning Daedra. Summoning Daedra is not something that is actually known for Necromancers to do. They are more into summoning the undead. That is what a Necromancer is supposed to do, after all.

As for using Skyrim as an example, which part of it are you trying to bring up? Any time I have gone after a Necromancer faction, they have thrown undead at me. The only time they do not is if there are non-Necromancers mixed in such as with the enemy group of mages you go to recover some books for the College of Winterhold.

BasP wrote: »

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

I would have to agree the Necromancer definitely needs some tune-ups/reworks, but that should not effect the Sorcerer. Sorcerer is in relatively a good place thematically as it has access to summoning Daedric minions as well as having access to Dark Magic and Storm magic. Having the Necromancer summon Daedra makes zero sense from a thematic to even gameplay.

If anything, the game needs some standardization as well as trying to maintain class identity to some degree. The introduction of Subclassing has really thrown a wrench into stabilizing the game. I planned on creating a post that directly focused on this issue as well as a fix for starters with the Necromancer (it's in a nudge towards the right direction, but it needs some more tuning).

That's why i suggested the Necromancer should take over the Sorceror's summons. Realistic a Necromancer will know how to summon daedra & entities. Skyrim is a prime example.
A Sorceror is a high damage dealer with mage abilities too

In older Elder Scrolls games the Sorcerer is basically a Summoner, though. This is the class description from Morrowind, for exampe: "Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor, and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos."

Similarly, Conjuration is one of their class skills in Oblivion too. So ESO's Daedric Summoning skill line definitely fits the Sorcerer, in my opinion.

Truth be told, I'm glad that ESO's Necromancer doesn't have the Sorcerer's permanent pets that have to be double-barred as I just don't like that mechanic. That said, I wouldn't have mind it if the class had another temporary undead summon like the Skeletal Mage.

I'd be happy to just be able to summon skeletons during battles at least, maybe have a thrall, maybe summon an atronach

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

I would have to agree the Necromancer definitely needs some tune-ups/reworks, but that should not effect the Sorcerer. Sorcerer is in relatively a good place thematically as it has access to summoning Daedric minions as well as having access to Dark Magic and Storm magic. Having the Necromancer summon Daedra makes zero sense from a thematic to even gameplay.

If anything, the game needs some standardization as well as trying to maintain class identity to some degree. The introduction of Subclassing has really thrown a wrench into stabilizing the game. I planned on creating a post that directly focused on this issue as well as a fix for starters with the Necromancer (it's in a nudge towards the right direction, but it needs some more tuning).

That's why i suggested the Necromancer should take over the Sorceror's summons. Realistic a Necromancer will know how to summon daedra & entities. Skyrim is a prime example.
A Sorceror is a high damage dealer with mage abilities too

In older Elder Scrolls games the Sorcerer is basically a Summoner, though. This is the class description from Morrowind, for exampe: "Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor, and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos."

Similarly, Conjuration is one of their class skills in Oblivion too. So ESO's Daedric Summoning skill line definitely fits the Sorcerer, in my opinion.

Truth be told, I'm glad that ESO's Necromancer doesn't have the Sorcerer's permanent pets that have to be double-barred as I just don't like that mechanic. That said, I wouldn't have mind it if the class had another temporary undead summon like the Skeletal Mage.

Necromancer should definitely get a small rework. It would be awesome if they created a class that allowed you to empower yourself with death and corpses as well as an alternative of creating and controlling undead of temporary and permanent nature.

Yeah, as i mentioned to @ZOS_Kevin, the Necro can have more of a debuff, burst & minions

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

Yeah, as i mentioned to @ZOS_Kevin, the Necro can have more of a debuff, burst & minions

Interesting to hear.

Basically turn the class into similar to its skyrim counterpart, Ability to have a thrall which depends on the corpse mechanic the quality, Higher quality corpse means higher magic cost to cast thrall, which is a permanent pet. Another ability, taken from Dragon's Dogma's Wight, Character casts it and skeletons keep popping up for 10-15sec, creating a small temporary horde

Yeah the second would be true to the class, The thrall, even if we can't pick the quality, is something it needs. They mixed up the Necromancer with the Sorceror

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

I agree Sorcerer should always have been be a battlemage class and the Necromancer should have been the summoner class
Necro should get the sorc pets while sorc would get two new lightning themed skills

I actually think of a Sorcerer as being different from a battlemage.

To me, Sorcerer screams "glass cannon magic flinger" - very fragile, but devastating firepower and mobility.

Whereas a battlemage is more like a defense-based caster that is capable of holding their own in melee combat range. Less damage, but way more survivable.

With that said though, I agree that the Necro should be the pet class, not the Sorc, and this is possible to do with subclassing. THE PROBLEM is that it is not really effective. I tried it already, and regardless of armor sets, I could not get the pure pet class build to parse over 60k. I even tried mixing in a damage skill line to help and it didn't seem to make a different.

SO IMO, what we ultimately need is new mythics that will help themed characters like this perform up to par. For instance, they could have a mythic that increases pet damage by 100%, but reduces your NON pet-skill damage by 50%. They also need more pet-themed sets (and/or buff existing ones) and rework some pet-themed skills (like daedric prey) to be more universal in application.

Someone on redddit mentioned they reversed them, the necro is more dps and tank where the sorceror is the necromancer pet class

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

I agree Sorcerer should always have been be a battlemage class and the Necromancer should have been the summoner class
Necro should get the sorc pets while sorc would get two new lightning themed skills

I actually think of a Sorcerer as being different from a battlemage.

To me, Sorcerer screams "glass cannon magic flinger" - very fragile, but devastating firepower and mobility.

Whereas a battlemage is more like a defense-based caster that is capable of holding their own in melee combat range. Less damage, but way more survivable.

With that said though, I agree that the Necro should be the pet class, not the Sorc, and this is possible to do with subclassing. THE PROBLEM is that it is not really effective. I tried it already, and regardless of armor sets, I could not get the pure pet class build to parse over 60k. I even tried mixing in a damage skill line to help and it didn't seem to make a different.

SO IMO, what we ultimately need is new mythics that will help themed characters like this perform up to par. For instance, they could have a mythic that increases pet damage by 100%, but reduces your NON pet-skill damage by 50%. They also need more pet-themed sets (and/or buff existing ones) and rework some pet-themed skills (like daedric prey) to be more universal in application.

Sorcerer in classic TES games has historically been a Heavy Armor caster with masteries in basically all of the Schools of Magic. Even in Skyrim, the classes are still referred to behind-the-scenes and Sorcerers are Heavy Armor and Conjuration.

In Morrowind, it even has Endurance as its primary attribute, along with Intellect, which is shared with brawler classes like Warrior and Pilgrim.

Diablo is definitely what I think of when imagining a glass canon style caster with the Sorcerer name.

This. Elder Scrolls sorcerers don't fit neatly into the typical "sorcerer" archetype in other fantasy properties. TES Sorcerers are typically just bulky magic users with summoning.

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

I agree Sorcerer should always have been be a battlemage class and the Necromancer should have been the summoner class
Necro should get the sorc pets while sorc would get two new lightning themed skills

I actually think of a Sorcerer as being different from a battlemage.

To me, Sorcerer screams "glass cannon magic flinger" - very fragile, but devastating firepower and mobility.

Whereas a battlemage is more like a defense-based caster that is capable of holding their own in melee combat range. Less damage, but way more survivable.

With that said though, I agree that the Necro should be the pet class, not the Sorc, and this is possible to do with subclassing. THE PROBLEM is that it is not really effective. I tried it already, and regardless of armor sets, I could not get the pure pet class build to parse over 60k. I even tried mixing in a damage skill line to help and it didn't seem to make a different.

SO IMO, what we ultimately need is new mythics that will help themed characters like this perform up to par. For instance, they could have a mythic that increases pet damage by 100%, but reduces your NON pet-skill damage by 50%. They also need more pet-themed sets (and/or buff existing ones) and rework some pet-themed skills (like daedric prey) to be more universal in application.

Sorcerer in classic TES games has historically been a Heavy Armor caster with masteries in basically all of the Schools of Magic. Even in Skyrim, the classes are still referred to behind-the-scenes and Sorcerers are Heavy Armor and Conjuration.

In Morrowind, it even has Endurance as its primary attribute, along with Intellect, which is shared with brawler classes like Warrior and Pilgrim.

Diablo is definitely what I think of when imagining a glass canon style caster with the Sorcerer name.

This. Elder Scrolls sorcerers don't fit neatly into the typical "sorcerer" archetype in other fantasy properties. TES Sorcerers are typically just bulky magic users with summoning.

I think Dragon's Dogma did it well but ZOS totally mixed them up with the Necromancer. Pretty sure the dev who made them never played any fantasy game before, It defies common sense how you can mess it up

I mean but even with Necros, until Skyrim, TES Necros functioned just like necromancers in ESO function. That is to say, you didn't actually "ressurect" the dead in Morrowind or Oblivion (save for the Staff of Worms). You simply summoned undead for a limited time out of thin air.

It wasn't until Skyrim that Necromancy spells became a target spell that resurrected a corpse.

Idk it's just not something I'm very hung up on. I'd rather ZOS fix Necro's functionality by changing corpses over making them a class with bad permanent pets.

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

Napalm_Death32 wrote: »

So as we all know, they kind of messed up the Necromancer & turned a Sorceror into a Necromancer. So what i recommend is rework them. Turn the Necromancer into what it supposed to be, a Pet & MInion class. Able to summon daedra pets & using skeletons is minions during the fight, using the corpse mechanic so it stays within lore and current class but reworked to be a proper pet and minion class.
Sorcerer gets turned into a pure high damage class, No pets but has higher dps and DoT. Light attacks that does burst, poison & DoT attacks. Turning the class into a class focused on damage, healing & DoT, giving it both support and damage dealer abilities. Almost like its now, but pets are removed and gets spells that buffs your dps.

Currently the Necro got mixed up and this way it gets fixed, while not much changes are needed. Only Necro being focused around support & minions/pets. So then its still tanking but added dps with its perma pets & temporary minions & Sorceror gets reworked to being pure damage & heal

This is not WoW or Diablo, it's ESO. If you NEED necro to have pets then simply go play those games. I have both my sorc and necro where I want them to be no, plz don't redo the class because 1 person wants to change ESO into Diablo...

I wouldn't know, never played either. Its basic common sense. A sorceror is full damage, a necromancer is a summoner

Necromancer is basicaly a death mage, deal with death and corpses, but summoning daedra? That type of conjuration magic is part of the sorcerer. I'm still waiting for zos to interduce imps, banekin, and other elemntal foorms of atronach (air, frost, fire). Necromancer still can have sizable death summons like wraiths, draugrs, zombie, and lichs.

Sorcerer can still retain its thematic (lighting mage, battlemage, daedric summoner) and necromancer and still keep its thematic (death mender, death mage) without negating each other, both class simply need overhaul, new skills, or 3rd morphs of skills. I personaly like new skills.

I personally think that Sorc and Necro can both be summoner classes, but in different ways. Sorc can keep their permanent pets while Necro leans more into horde summoning with abilities in all their skill lines that can summon minions like the lich transformation in the infinite archive.

For example, Grave Grasp, Boneyard and Life amid Death could summon up to 4 skeletal minions to create a horde for 20 seconds (4 minions being the maximum that can be active at any given time). Their normal summoning abilities can add other functions to the minions, like the healing spirit doing its healing in an aoe around the minions if you have them active or skeletal mage boosting their base damage. This could also interact with siphon abilities and would allow you to consume one of the minions when no corpses are nearby to alleviate some of the clunkiness that the corpse mechanic is known for. This minion consumption would be placed on a cooldown and only 1 of them can be consumed at a time prevent any funny business.

I think this change would give necro a little more visual and thematic identity by being able to actually raise the dead more often and gain more power from their minions. It would also make them more mechanically interesting by having certain skills interact more with their minions/summons.