It's time to reshuffle the other three base game classes

BasP · August 4

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

Well dk is fairly split up or able to be tweaked.

Sorc just needs damage redistributed to dark and daedric

NB needs merci cut down with damage added back to shadow and siphon

Templar dawns can play more into dots like it was supposed to. Aedric and restoring could be balanced out damage/heal wise for passives.

Warden frost damage could have tooltips raised and the green tree can play more into debuffs and dots

Necro just needs higher tooltips in general with less random % buffs. A reshuffle of skills where the corpse system is consolidated to grave may function the best with subclassing.

Arcanist, tbh I didnt bother to level because I never saw anything strong in pvp.

PVE wise DK is pretty heavily split between DPS/Tank/Utility for their 3 lines. The weirdness of the ults in Draconic and Earthen are really the only things that keep them from being extremely segmented. Swapping talons and chain would basically make all non-ult skills be in perfect role alignment.

True. Personally, I'd love it if ZOS tried to make Draconic Power better for DPS instead though - with a couple of changes it could become a good line for tanks as well as decent for damage dealers, similar to Winter's Embrace. I just think it would be nice to have more options when putting a build together - not less.

MincMincMinc · August 4

katorga wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So the design philosophy is 2-3 one-stop-shops for playing competitive, the other 17 are purely aesthetic?

Probably makes it easier to balance the meta, but also makes the whole build system feel pointless.

Funny how in all the vengeance threads people cry for build diversity like on live...... meanwhile on live its the same handful of builds.

Assassin+Animal+storm+aedric
Trainee
BS+onslaught or Bal+dbos
Mono
RC backbar
Acuity or your favorite pen/dmg set frontbar

Ooh onslaught. The pen and defense is too good when you have that much crit power.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So the design philosophy is 2-3 one-stop-shops for playing competitive, the other 17 are purely aesthetic?

Probably makes it easier to balance the meta, but also makes the whole build system feel pointless.

Well the argument and general point of this post is that reshuffling each class' power into specific role focused lines would raise viability in all facets as opposed to right now where there's only like 4 good lines for each role and that's why they're vastly over picked in content for both pve and pvp.

They should buff other skill lines so that there are other combinations that will allow us to hit Crit Damage cap with good weapon/spell damage buffs. Either in the passives or on skills.

People are already capping pen+critchance+critdamage+resists all on the same build. If anything crit damage sources need to be cut down to size or limited with more major/minor buffs.

This.

I probably already said it this thread but I think it is fine to have these cap sets or skills like acuity or onslaught. However I think it is a poor decision to allow these on a generic cooldown or ult wait period. For instance onslaught I would return the unique ult return to it, but grant 3300 (5%)or 6600(10%) pen per kill for with onslaught for 3s and stacking. Such that, you can build up perfect pen but there are opportunities to shut you down if you can't combo correctly.

madmufffin · August 4

BasP wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

Well dk is fairly split up or able to be tweaked.

Sorc just needs damage redistributed to dark and daedric

NB needs merci cut down with damage added back to shadow and siphon

Templar dawns can play more into dots like it was supposed to. Aedric and restoring could be balanced out damage/heal wise for passives.

Warden frost damage could have tooltips raised and the green tree can play more into debuffs and dots

Necro just needs higher tooltips in general with less random % buffs. A reshuffle of skills where the corpse system is consolidated to grave may function the best with subclassing.

Arcanist, tbh I didnt bother to level because I never saw anything strong in pvp.

PVE wise DK is pretty heavily split between DPS/Tank/Utility for their 3 lines. The weirdness of the ults in Draconic and Earthen are really the only things that keep them from being extremely segmented. Swapping talons and chain would basically make all non-ult skills be in perfect role alignment.

True. Personally, I'd love it if ZOS tried to make Draconic Power better for DPS instead though - with a couple of changes it could become a good line for tanks as well as decent for damage dealers, similar to Winter's Embrace. I just think it would be nice to have more options when putting a build together - not less.

I wouldn't mind them making it a lot more offensive. Would make me less salty about my precious talons being wasted in the skill line

Zyaneth_Bal · August 4

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

I don't see why not

madmufffin · August 4

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

I don't see why not

I mean afaik they've moved 1 skill between lines in the existence of the game and that's just because of NB bias from combat team. There's 0 chance they're reworking every class to be a disaster like Sorc is.

Zyaneth_Bal · August 6

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

I don't see why not

I mean afaik they've moved 1 skill between lines in the existence of the game and that's just because of NB bias from combat team. There's 0 chance they're reworking every class to be a disaster like Sorc is.

Sorc is a disaster and making other classes like sorc is certainly not what I said.

madmufffin · August 6

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

In my opinion, skill lines should resemble those of base game classes more, containing skills that perform different functions and serve different roles simultaneously. Unlike the popular opinion that skill lines should be strictly separated, one line for one role, certainly a much easier way, but hardly a good one. Of course, some kind of separation should exist as it always has, like generally each base class line is a mix of two roles.

This would reduce the potential power of subclassing as each line wouldn’t be focused solely on a single role which would lower the ceiling of minmaxed specialization. And at the same time would present more creative opportunities as you would mix lines dedicated to several roles at the same time instead of only stacking damage lines for instance.

This would've been the more ideal way, but given that NB and all 3 DLC classes are fully segmented and DK is pretty much there as well, we can't really roll back to that design.

I don't see why not

I mean afaik they've moved 1 skill between lines in the existence of the game and that's just because of NB bias from combat team. There's 0 chance they're reworking every class to be a disaster like Sorc is.

Sorc is a disaster and making other classes like sorc is certainly not what I said.

More saying that sorc best represents the full meshing of roles better than any other class, so would be the standard used for integrating skill lines into being more than one stop shops like they are now with subclassing.

Lebensf0rm · August 12

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

People are already capping pen+critchance+critdamage+resists all on the same build. If anything crit damage sources need to be cut down to size or limited with more major/minor buffs. The easy way to force people on other lines is to start cutting down the unique sources for major/minors that can be obtained in other places. Probably why they pushed to do the heroism ult gen on different places......although ult gen is hardly the problem *COUGH* SURPRISE ATTACK AND MERCILESS *COUGH*

This is something that does need to be addressed. I am seeing passive crit damage so high currently that malacath has become a viable option again despite removing the base 50% crit damage characters start with. Sure it doesn't hit the cap technically, but still sits at crit damage values that were considered high pre-subclassing, even with that downside.

It's like how there's so much passive, easy, movement speed in the game that SSC has no practical downside at all, despite the massive (uncleansable) snare it inflicts.

These mythics are supposed to have detrimental downsides as trade-offs for the massive power they grant, but powercreep (speed creep before and now crit damage creep) has all but removed the downsides of these mythics, making them all positive for no practical trade-off.

Its a clear problem if pvp builds are regularly capping half the stats in the game.
Crit chance

Crit damage

pen

Armor

Speed

Even on these builds you have enough % mit and % damage done that a 10% mit source really only gives about half of that due to efficiency losses.

Almost none of this is true.

PvP builds aren't regularly capping crit chance unless you count briefly hitting 100% with Mechanical Acuity, which isn't really an issue given the length of its cooldown.
A player would need at least 145% critical damage to cap in PvP (50% base and 95% from other sources due to the base 1320 or 20% crit resist). Builds definitely aren't hitting that number regularly.
Pen doesn't have a set cap in PvP given that player resistances vary. I would say that players are generally running somewhere between 25k and 30k resists with major and minor resolve, and likely even more on their back bar. You aren't hitting penetration that high without Balorgh or some ability that ignores resists like the 2h ult or Corrosive Armor.
Armor is basically the same point as the above: player penetration functionally changes the armor cap.

You might hit high values for a good chunk of those stats temporarily, but the single easiest thing to do if PvP burst is actually too high is raise the base crit resist value. Nerfs are almost never necessary.