Unnecessary and inconsistent nerf to Coral Riptide

MSattrtand · July 31

For those who missed:

Coral Riptide: This set now adds up to 680 Weapon and Spell Damage to your damaging abilities (any source of damage that scales with these stats), rather than granting up to 540 Weapon and Spell Damage in general.

I do not understand why you must add this "to your damaging abilities"? Ok, it will no longer buff your healing, but... What is the problem you're trying to solve with this nerf?

Is it too strong that Coral buffs Resolving Vigour on live? That Coral buffs healing from the Flail? In most PvE situations, you are being healed by your healers, so getting more heals from your skills is not so useful.
Yes, you can do (I think) all of the dungeons HMs without a healer - is it because Coral buffs your own heals? No. In portal-type situations in trials, DDs may go without a healer, so they need to have their own heals, but the fact that they have enough healing output to survive being away from the healer is not caused by the fact that Coral buffs your heals. I don't see how this can be a problem in PvE.

Maybe it's getting nerfed for PvP reasons? I'm not the best PvPer in the world, but I'm pretty sure that sitting under 50% stam is extremely dangerous, so this set shouldn't be popular in PvP (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, what's the point of this nerf? What should it accomplish? Right now, it looks like a nerf for the sake of nerf.

I've seen in a few Discord servers that people don't understand how this bonus will interact with Major Brutality/Sorcery. Right now, it's pretty straightforward - it gives you WPD/SPD; everything that increases your WPD/SPD should affect that. But WPD/SPD to damaging abilities is a slightly different modifier, so maybe it's not affected by Brutality/Sorcery? Balanced Warrior? Slayer? Agility? And you have to specify in patch notes that damaging abilities mean any source of damage that scales with these stats - because you find it confusing yourself. This change just makes the wording more complicated and confusing.

Oh, and another thing: why Coral? I would understand if the devs wanted to clearly separate sets for DDs from sets for healers (even though I don't see the problem here). But there's Siroria, Yandir’s, Harmony in Chaos - they aren't getting this change, they still give just WPD/SPD. Berserking Warrior and Highland Sentinel give you just Critical Chance, not Critical Chance to damaging abilities. Why does the Coral get this kind of treatment when other sets that can technically buff your healing do not? It is a bad change cause it's inconsistent with how other sets work.

To summarise this change:

It's pointless from a balance perspective since it solves no problem.
It's bad from the UX perspective, since it makes it work less intuitively.
It's bad from a balance perspective because it makes one set function not like the other for no reason.

This change should be reverted; it has no pros, only cons.

P.S.
Remember the ultigen passives nerf? Yeah, it was reverted, but ZOS introduced a completely pointless common cooldown for them, so they still got nerfed (I have a wall of text on why this change is pointless, too, but I'm not sure if I need to release it). And now ZOS nerfed WPD/SPD for Coral, then partially reverted this nerf, but again added some pointless nerf.
So, the devs introduced some nerf, then reverted it cause players didn't like that, but introduced another (but pointless) nerf. It is a really concerning trend.

Veinblood1965 · July 31

It's just the beginning of an endless series of skill and set changes due to subclassing. Many of us are just getting so tired of the constant battle to just play the game without being nudged to redo our favorite builds. I know I am sick to death of it.

MincMincMinc · July 31

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

It's just the beginning of an endless series of skill and set changes due to subclassing. Many of us are just getting so tired of the constant battle to just play the game without being nudged to redo our favorite builds. I know I am sick to death of it.

Problem is that the base core build mechanics of the game are unbalanced and made trivial. So everything hinges on the fringe set and edge mechanics like status effects.........so anytime something minor changes to your core stats suddenly your sets and all the fringe case stuff has to change.

Building used to be such that your 5 piece sets were the core choice you made and were easily swapped. Now so much depends on your skill line choices since most passives are worth 5 piece bonuses and most skills have multiple 5 piece bonus worth of value. So now you can wildly swing all of your choices around depending if any of these variables changes. >>> if you want to run X skill, well now you need Y set and Z other skill

IDK, I'm just mentally living back in the old stam/mag meta where WD sets were the main plug and play worry. Times were simpler and the game played better.

ssewallb14_ESO · July 31

They likely wanted to buff the set a bit in PvE while retaining the easier proc condition but didn't want it to start showing up in PvP.

madmufffin · July 31

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

MincMincMinc · July 31

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

They likely wanted to buff the set a bit in PvE while retaining the easier proc condition but didn't want it to start showing up in PvP.

Yeah i'd hate to have wd sets viable in pvp to any degree. Meanwhile we have 100% uptime crit damage/healing, pen, and damage done sets worth 800+ weapon damage 5 piece bonuses.

Best we have right now is clever alch 675 with a 44% uptime. They could bring back old fury, ravager, 7th, briar and they would probably be balanced fine. Honestly it would be nice to give us literally any other option that stacking crit damage, acuity, balorgh, or status/effects.

Atleast with WD it is consistently useful if the player is consistently good. When we have gamble stats and effects more prolific pvp ends up feeling like your input doesnt matter as much. Why be good at weaving when I can wait for my balorgh crit merci bow that does 90% of most people's healthbar.

YandereGirlfriend · July 31

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 31

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

MincMincMinc · July 31

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.

Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain
WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect
Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient
Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

YandereGirlfriend · July 31

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

MincMincMinc · July 31

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

Yeah I think the soft efficiency concept where currently for damage and heal output one line of WD is worth about 2 lines of max stat. Maybe if they inversed this for heals where max stats are worth 2x that of WD...........Problem here now is that nobody cares about WD already since there are no WD sets that compete with the pen, crit, or %dmg sets. So we would see just a net heal jump. Zos would have to push people away from these.

Veinblood1965 · July 31

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

It's just the beginning of an endless series of skill and set changes due to subclassing. Many of us are just getting so tired of the constant battle to just play the game without being nudged to redo our favorite builds. I know I am sick to death of it.

Problem is that the base core build mechanics of the game are unbalanced and made trivial. So everything hinges on the fringe set and edge mechanics like status effects.........so anytime something minor changes to your core stats suddenly your sets and all the fringe case stuff has to change.

Building used to be such that your 5 piece sets were the core choice you made and were easily swapped. Now so much depends on your skill line choices since most passives are worth 5 piece bonuses and most skills have multiple 5 piece bonus worth of value. So now you can wildly swing all of your choices around depending if any of these variables changes. >>> if you want to run X skill, well now you need Y set and Z other skill

IDK, I'm just mentally living back in the old stam/mag meta where WD sets were the main plug and play worry. Times were simpler and the game played better.

Exactly what I am referring to. Subclassing has introduced so many possible combinations that achieving any kind of medium to long term build is going to be impossible due to all the changes that are going to have to be made to stop people from finding even more ways to be super OP. It would be easier if they got rid of rigid stats on sets altogether and just allowed us to pick from a small core group of set abilities and create our own.

MJallday · August 1

Perf coral was mostly used in trials. Its now been swapped out for ansulls in U46. i dont think people used it for PvP but i might be wrong.

i must admit im confused between all of these "nuances" - so for example

adding xx to your damaging ablities
addit xx to your weapon/spell damage

is that not just overly complicating things?

the problem is that the game isnt very good at explaining the stats, let alone itself... (im looking at you , damage over time, direct damage, single target damage) so trying to get your head aound what impact this may or may not have for either PvP or PvE is... tricky - without actually trying it

sorry in advance if ive not explained myself

Major_Mangle · August 1

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

Yeah I think the soft efficiency concept where currently for damage and heal output one line of WD is worth about 2 lines of max stat. Maybe if they inversed this for heals where max stats are worth 2x that of WD...........Problem here now is that nobody cares about WD already since there are no WD sets that compete with the pen, crit, or %dmg sets. So we would see just a net heal jump. Zos would have to push people away from these.

I think seperating damage/healing at this point in the game would be too drastic of a change, but I wouldn't be opposed to an adjustment to how well healing/damage skills scale with max stats compared to wpn/spelldmg (aka change the ratio somewhat).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

The downside with this is that anytime I want to do some outnumbered PvP as a group I'll be forced to have a dedicated healbot with me unless I just want to zergsurf. The concept of having strong self-/crossheals as a damage dealer in PvP isn't bad, but moderation is obviously key. During the PvP event I've spend a lot of time as a duo in nocp, and most of the problem people complain about in PvP genuinely solves itself withou CP active. Feel like CP has a bigger impact on how overtuned things can be than stuff like gear/subclassing etc.

skinnycheeks · August 4

The only Weapon/Spell damage stat that doesn't scale with % boosts like Sorcery/Brutality is Bloodthirsty. Coral will still scale with the stats, the same as before. The only difference is that it won't boost your shields or heals.

It's just straight up stronger than other sets like Siroria/Harmony for damage. The issue is actually that it is too strong compared to those, not too weak.

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

skinnycheeks wrote: »

The only Weapon/Spell damage stat that doesn't scale with % boosts like Sorcery/Brutality is Bloodthirsty. Coral will still scale with the stats, the same as before. The only difference is that it won't boost your shields or heals.

It's just straight up stronger than other sets like Siroria/Harmony for damage. The issue is actually that it is too strong compared to those, not too weak.

Indeed.

If you're comparing ease of use and thus risk vs. reward, Harmony In Chaos should have the most damage because it requires a specific raid comp as well as consistently interacting with the synergy mechanic (which most players completely ignore). It is also much more punishing to lose the stacks on since synergies have global timers and you cannot simply rebuild stacks instantly like with Yandir's, etc. If you lose those stacks then you're going to have to wait for a minute or longer to power back up.

Siroria should also be stronger than Coral since it too requires specific mechanics to get the full value out of unless it's one of those straightforward tank-and-spank stationary fights.

Overall, both of those sets should be tuned somewhere in the +1000 WD range.

MincMincMinc · August 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

Yeah I think the soft efficiency concept where currently for damage and heal output one line of WD is worth about 2 lines of max stat. Maybe if they inversed this for heals where max stats are worth 2x that of WD...........Problem here now is that nobody cares about WD already since there are no WD sets that compete with the pen, crit, or %dmg sets. So we would see just a net heal jump. Zos would have to push people away from these.

I think seperating damage/healing at this point in the game would be too drastic of a change, but I wouldn't be opposed to an adjustment to how well healing/damage skills scale with max stats compared to wpn/spelldmg (aka change the ratio somewhat).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Weapon and spell damage buffing barrier is the main issue. Its interaction with brutality and sorcery is probably the other cause. I think overall the change is pretty fair as it was pretty overtuned before and with the higher max value threshold it would be either broken or worthless depending where they kept the damage number at.

Perhaps.

Though it's Reason #345983495894 why it is and was a terrible design decision to make defensive and offensive abilities scale off of the exact same stats.

Imagine a world where Healing Done mods on defensive sets were (super buffed) and necessary rather than simply the dead weight from a "power budget" POV that they are now. Utopia.

It's bizarre that they made healing sets scale on max stat but didn't do the same for abilities.

It'd likely make the game a lot healthier if you needed Damage for damaging abilities, Health/resists for tanking, and max stat for healing.

Well the old days you had balances between the stats used in a healthier way.
Max Mag was 50% for Wards, and the other 50% for half the damage and heals of WD/SD with the benefit of capacity sustain

WD/SD doubled as damage and heal tooltips with no sustain aspect

Pen or % damage done was entirely damage but more efficient

Armor or % healing was entirely defensive but more efficient

What happened was that zos has bloated the game to the point where the ACTIVE scaling portion of skills is not the right ratio for the rest of the output of builds. For example our total output for a surprise attack used to be mainly the surprise attack hit, not surprise and sunder. So as we are seeing with max stats, soon WD and SD will be forgotten as the actual damage scaling pales in comparison to %damage sources or other effects like sunder.

It was still bad design to have offense and defense scale from the same stats. Even max stats are too dual-use, IMO.

In a better world, there would be healing-exclusive stats that were a genuine opportunity cost to invest in.

The downside with this is that anytime I want to do some outnumbered PvP as a group I'll be forced to have a dedicated healbot with me unless I just want to zergsurf. The concept of having strong self-/crossheals as a damage dealer in PvP isn't bad, but moderation is obviously key. During the PvP event I've spend a lot of time as a duo in nocp, and most of the problem people complain about in PvP genuinely solves itself withou CP active. Feel like CP has a bigger impact on how overtuned things can be than stuff like gear/subclassing etc.

You know we say too drastic of a change, but then we also all just lived through zos releasing subclassing without adjusting all the other layers of the game first to support it.

virtus753 · August 4

Right, if WD/SD modifiers didn’t apply to “damaging abilities only” things, Untamed Aggression would very quickly outdo Wrathful Strikes. It doesn’t, which can be seen with a quick test.

That said, that isn’t as obvious a conclusion as it may seem (or probably should be) when we consider how other things work differently based on minor details, like “damage done” buffs. Sets like Velothi, Ansuul, and Tide-Born look like they would add to other “damage done” buffs (e.g. Slayers, Berserks, CP, Deadly Strike, heavy attacks on off-balance targets, and soon Rakkhat). I see them explained that way here on the forums and in game quite a lot, and it isn’t an illogical assumption. But they’re actually in their own multiplicative category. And the Slayers have not been moved to this “monster” category even though they are effectively restricted to monsters because of the restriction of where they are enabled.

There are just so many places where official explanations are lacking (or unfortunately outright incorrect) or where things don’t work particularly logically or consistently that pretty much everything has to be tested. So OP, I definitely don’t blame anyone for wondering how this change will actually work in practice. Unfortunately, it’d basically be a full time job writing up those missing explanations or correcting them for issues working differently than described. In most cases setting up a quick test (like Wrathful vs Untamed here) is a relatively easy way for players to see for themselves how it works. While we do have content creators like Skinny able to speak to these things with current info, there are also many cases of conflicting or outdated information floating around, so it can be hard to know for sure without firsthand experience.