600+ days played character is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · August 4

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

Araneae6537 · August 4

The high end competitive gameplay has ALWAYS been very specific, with specific classes with specific armor sets in specific roles, and some classes not desired at all, depending on the content. Subclassing gives you more options in how you play your character, not fewer.

PeacefulAnarchy · August 4

What's your base class and what do you want to do?
I can understand not liking the current meta or what you have to do to keep up, but if you had a character you could do content with before, it should be just as if not closer to meta now by adding the right subclassing lines. Base class only matters for three things, class script where the only standout one, arc, is getting nerfed in 2 weeks, IA sets which aren't meta, and the ability to take 2 of a skill line which isn't in any meta builds for any role I've seen.

Islyn · August 4

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

You can do all trials, even trifectas - all with a lot of builds/classes. You just won't be pushing scores on a leaderboard that no one cares about unless they're on it or want to be.

This is coming from someone who was within the top 3/5/10 years back.

You can still do all content, get all achs etc. Just maybe not in any tippy tip guild but if you wanted to do that, you wouldn't be bothered by this.

Your character is absolutely not obsolete.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · August 4

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The high end competitive gameplay has ALWAYS been very specific, with specific classes with specific armor sets in specific roles, and some classes not desired at all, depending on the content. Subclassing gives you more options in how you play your character, not fewer.

Right, I get that. But my main class was competitive in the type of content that I play and enjoy. Now it's not.

Adding MORE options in how you play your character has the OPPOSITE effect in that certain class skill lines are now the best and if none of those are part of your base class, you're out of luck.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · August 4

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

Urzigurumash · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

Arent all 4 of the base classes and Warden viable as a top tier build in PvP? With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

Urzigurumash · August 4

Granted I'm from the behind the times world of Xbox, but while Assassination - Animal - Storm might be THE S Tier combo seems like theres many A Tier.

I'm also playing a Pure Arc build so, I'm not really a reliabe source for this topic

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

War, war never changes. And subclassing owns. Adapt, overcome.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

I'm intimately familiar with all of the skill lines, sets, how damage is calculated, etc. I'm just not looking for build advice in this thread.

Here's a good example.

Hypothetically, let's say that DK was my main in PvP. I'm not playing that when Assassination, Animal Companions, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light, and Storm Calling exists. The DK passives are awful. Sure, Ardent Flame + Storm Calling w/ Pyrebrand hits hard but it still gets outclassed by the 5 skill lines I just mentioned. I'm still switching off DK because it's obsolete if I want to play at the highest level.

Urzigurumash · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

I'm intimately familiar with all of the skill lines, sets, how damage is calculated, etc. I'm just not looking for build advice in this thread.

Here's a good example.

Hypothetically, let's say that DK was my main in PvP. I'm not playing that when Assassination, Animal Companions, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light, and Storm Calling exists. The DK passives are awful. Sure, Ardent Flame + Storm Calling w/ Pyrebrand hits hard but it still gets outclassed by the 5 skill lines I just mentioned. I'm still switching off DK because it's obsolete if I want to play at the highest level.

You're not wrong, but as a Xbox Day 1 DK I couldn't be happier about that. So long fairweather fans, only the true devotees of the Akaviri Traditions remain.

Vulkunne · August 4

Not going to sub my DK. Not interested in playing for anyone else's expectations. My DK still achieves results. Completely disagree that the DK passives or skills are awful or that the class itself is obsolete. DK is meant to be played a certain way, if I wanted something else, I would have gone for... something else.

I'd focus more on what a DK is rather than what it isn't.

Where there's a will there's a way, old ways. Let others go - but this mountain shall not be moved, and I will not be shaken.

Urzigurumash · August 4

Amen

Desiato · August 4

ESO has always been very limiting with only one character.

I have 5 DKs of different races and played 4 of them in PVP.

drkfrontiers · August 4

I hate subclassing personally as it will ultimately lead to homogenization of build performance with narrowly defined meta go-to combinations.

That being said, I have maxed out subclassing across all tiers - how did I do it? Crafting writs.

randconfig · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

I'm intimately familiar with all of the skill lines, sets, how damage is calculated, etc. I'm just not looking for build advice in this thread.

Here's a good example.

Hypothetically, let's say that DK was my main in PvP. I'm not playing that when Assassination, Animal Companions, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light, and Storm Calling exists. The DK passives are awful. Sure, Ardent Flame + Storm Calling w/ Pyrebrand hits hard but it still gets outclassed by the 5 skill lines I just mentioned. I'm still switching off DK because it's obsolete if I want to play at the highest level.

Gotta say I don't disagree. Only Ardent Flame is useful now, Draconic Power and Earthen Heart passives and defensively play literally just gets melted in the current PVP meta of stacking 3 dps skill lines, unless you also put on tank sets, but then you're a meme and can do nothing but stand there and not die.

PVP is best when there's a balance between being able to deal damage, being able to tank damage, and having some self healing to recover. When you can just get one shot by Storm Calling + Assassination skill line abilities, then PVP is reduced from 3 core mechanics (deal damage, tank some damage, self heal to recover) to just deal damage. Very boring imo, though PVE only players probably are able to do better now, but they only play PVP for events, so after that PVP dies since it's not fun for actual PVP players.

Rkindaleft · August 4

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The high end competitive gameplay has ALWAYS been very specific, with specific classes with specific armor sets in specific roles, and some classes not desired at all, depending on the content. Subclassing gives you more options in how you play your character, not fewer.

You're right that the high end has never been particularly diverse, but Subclassing has only really given you more options in how you play your character for people who don't play at a level where builds actually start to matter (so nobody doing PvP or PvE at Veteran level).

I'd consider myself one of the high end competitive types, I have 8 trial trifectas titles, some of which multiple times, and have current server record scores for 2 trials. For these kinds of players, Subclassing has only made this diversity problem worse.

Lets go back to the patch before Subclassing and take a pretty "competitive" group DPS composition for the majority of the trials (this is console specific because it's what I play and maybe not meta everywhere, but close to it, while ignoring things like Lucent Citadel which was/is extremely Arcanist dominated):

ZenKosh Dragonknight
EC Necromancer
MK Sorcerer
MAYBE 1-2 Templar DPS
3-5 Arcanist DPS

Now, on live thanks to Subclassing, we have 7 Arc beam hybrids and 1 Zen player, with the other support options being extremely specific in where you use them and subclassed passives have made EC and Alkosh completely meaningless in raid most of the time. If you didn't like playing Arcanist (which to many people is boring/not engaging to play) you could at least have the option to play as one of the support DPS (on classes that weren't Arcanist). Now you're just gimping yourself and making it harder for the rest of the group by not doing the boring beam gameplay (boring is subjective).

So in reality, the ways to play your character at this level just went down.

Urzigurumash · August 4

randconfig wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

I'm intimately familiar with all of the skill lines, sets, how damage is calculated, etc. I'm just not looking for build advice in this thread.

Here's a good example.

Hypothetically, let's say that DK was my main in PvP. I'm not playing that when Assassination, Animal Companions, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light, and Storm Calling exists. The DK passives are awful. Sure, Ardent Flame + Storm Calling w/ Pyrebrand hits hard but it still gets outclassed by the 5 skill lines I just mentioned. I'm still switching off DK because it's obsolete if I want to play at the highest level.

Gotta say I don't disagree. Only Ardent Flame is useful now, Draconic Power and Earthen Heart passives and defensively play literally just gets melted in the current PVP meta of stacking 3 dps skill lines, unless you also put on tank sets, but then you're a meme and can do nothing but stand there and not die.

PVP is best when there's a balance between being able to deal damage, being able to tank damage, and having some self healing to recover. When you can just get one shot by Storm Calling + Assassination skill line abilities, then PVP is reduced from 3 core mechanics (deal damage, tank some damage, self heal to recover) to just deal damage. Very boring imo, though PVE only players probably are able to do better now, but they only play PVP for events, so after that PVP dies since it's not fun for actual PVP players.

Seems you are way out of date on the Laws of ESO PvP as put forth by this forum:

1. Tanking is awful, tanks are a menace and must be banned from PvP. HP Scaled heals like Dragonblood should warp you to the wayshrines upon casting

2. Wearing Heavy Armor should grey out any and all offensive skills

3. Sorcs only kill noobs, because all of their damage can be blocked or roll dodged

4. NBs only kill afk players, since you can break free and roll dodge within Merciless Resolve's 0.25 second travel time

5. HP Regen is the single all time most busted mechanic in PvP, since it dominated the meta for 3 months 5 years ago

Shall I go on? The short of it is prior to 2021 DK always was and now can again be the Anti Meta Class, DK Mains must resist and oppose the slanderous lies of our SorcBlade oppressors

darkriketz · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

Your character is obsolete in what way ?
Are you totally unable to use subclassing to add a new skill line ? Have you used each of your skill points and you have no gold to reroll them ? Are new pieces of gear, both crafted and looted, totally unavailable to you ? Is TESO even playable anymore in your perspective ?!?
Obsolete in which way ?!? O_O

...ok I'm kidding, I'm being sarcastic, it's just another case of player complaining for non-existing problem, and it gets really annoying as the times passes by.
You're obviously obsessed with competition, maybe take a break, breathe a little, go explore Tamriel, do some crafting or housing, marvel to the beautiful landscapes, and remember that the game still is playable for you. Changing your character and shifting your strategy is, like, a basic in a MMORPG. It happens sometimes, it's not a big deal, don't worry.

And regarding the fact that you may have a single master crafter character and other characters for other purposes... welcome to TESO, I guess ?

Urzigurumash · August 4

darkriketz wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

...ok I'm kidding, I'm being sarcastic, it's just another case of player complaining for non-existing problem, and it gets really annoying as the times passes by.

It's not a non existent problem, do you play PvP? However it is a return to form for DK, ironically while everything else has dissolved, we've reconstituted.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · August 4

The most endgame content of ESO where combat is concerned is actually far into the Infinite Archive

Those 3 DPS skill lines Subclassing builds are not going to make it very far in there.

darkriketz · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

darkriketz wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

...ok I'm kidding, I'm being sarcastic, it's just another case of player complaining for non-existing problem, and it gets really annoying as the times passes by.

It's not a non existent problem, do you play PvP? However it is a return to form for DK, ironically while everything else has dissolved, we've reconstituted.

There is absolutely no universe in which subclassing breaks TESO and renders it unplayable. It's just another way to play the game. For example, as a nightblade, my main character is far more secure and agreable to play now that it was before Subclassing.

If you like PvP, you like challenge. You're not forced to use Subclassing but if opponent players use it and it gives them a chance to best you ? See it as a challenge and rethink your character and strategy. It's just a new puzzle to solve to improve yourself. That's how competition works, by the way, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and when you lose, absolutely nothing in the universe forces you to post a forum thread to complain. Again : new way of playing, puzzle to solve.

Decimus · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

If you WANT to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay' then you do what you need to min max (put simply).

If you don't want to do THAT then you don't want to do 'serious high-end competitive gameplay.'

I do want to do that. That's why I'm switching characters and my main is now obsolete. 🙄

With your level of knowledge I'd be surprised if Cro was your first main?

I'm intimately familiar with all of the skill lines, sets, how damage is calculated, etc. I'm just not looking for build advice in this thread.

Here's a good example.

Hypothetically, let's say that DK was my main in PvP. I'm not playing that when Assassination, Animal Companions, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light, and Storm Calling exists. The DK passives are awful. Sure, Ardent Flame + Storm Calling w/ Pyrebrand hits hard but it still gets outclassed by the 5 skill lines I just mentioned. I'm still switching off DK because it's obsolete if I want to play at the highest level.

Hypothetically... have you tried building around Corrosive on DK this patch? Defensively I think it provides more value than ever in the current patch while still providing you a ton of offense (especially if subclassing bow procs, blastbones etc).

I think the one big issue one could point out is the DK class script being bad (which ZOS should definitely do something about btw) and thus any such build being better on another class base, but I think you can still justify running ulti gen on Healing Soul when building around Earthen Heart.

mattaeus01b16_ESO · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

I havnt played my main for anythng really since U35.
The build became convoluted. Sure, it could do amazing damage.
But I want to play and have fun... not get cramps in my hands.

WaywardArgonian · August 4

This doesn't sound like a subclassing-specific issue. Basically any major patch you had the risk that your class would be nerfed significantly. Even Sorcs, which have been top of the line in many types of content for quite a while now, went through a long period of receiving nerf after nerf and becoming at best a niche choice in PVE and PVP. Nevermind Necromancer mains, who were calling for class-change tokens for years because of how little use their class saw in most content after the initial high of its launch.

Right now, since you only have to retain one skill line of your base class, I'd argue it's become easier to work around being "stuck" on an underpowered class. Sure, you have no guarantee that you will have the optimal set-up for a given patch, but you did not have that guarantee anyway back when only pure classes existed. Minmaxing has always come with a price, and even without subclassing, DK or any class was always 1 patch away from becoming redundant.

moderatelyfatman · August 4

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

The ZOS combat team balance the classes by giving everyone beam and you're still not happy?

Yeah, me neither. I wanted a warden to do endgame content with and not a second rate arcanist.
The only hope for the game is if the combat devs get replaced and the roll back to having distinct classes. At this stage I think it's more likely the game gets put in maintenance mode with a skeleton crew for the whales and the only new content will be in the store.

Urzigurumash · August 4

darkriketz wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

darkriketz wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My main character, the one I've done all quests on and discovered all points of interest, found all skyshards, learned all crafting, etc. is now obsolete thanks to Subclassing. The builds that I need to stay competitive are no longer possible on my main class, so I must reroll another character and start fresh. Either that or buy skill lines from the crown store and switch characters anytime I need something crafted. You get the idea.

It's also been said before but Subclassing has distilled combat down to maybe 5 skill lines for the serious high-end competitive gameplay.

"oh wow, you're playing XYZ... how original" etc

...ok I'm kidding, I'm being sarcastic, it's just another case of player complaining for non-existing problem, and it gets really annoying as the times passes by.

It's not a non existent problem, do you play PvP? However it is a return to form for DK, ironically while everything else has dissolved, we've reconstituted.

There is absolutely no universe in which subclassing breaks TESO and renders it unplayable. It's just another way to play the game. For example, as a nightblade, my main character is far more secure and agreable to play now that it was before Subclassing.

If you like PvP, you like challenge. You're not forced to use Subclassing but if opponent players use it and it gives them a chance to best you ? See it as a challenge and rethink your character and strategy. It's just a new puzzle to solve to improve yourself. That's how competition works, by the way, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and when you lose, absolutely nothing in the universe forces you to post a forum thread to complain. Again : new way of playing, puzzle to solve.

Yes thats how I think and play too but thats proven to not be maximally competitive at ESO PvP. To do so you must ditch everything every 3 months and humiliate your integrity with repulsive procs like Tarnished Nightmare. Anybody with an ounce of regard for balance, thematic integrity, not using exploits, and so forth, is an RPer, and is the object of ridicule to the Max Kill Count meta chasing Exploiters, aka the true PvPers.

Urzigurumash · August 4

The solution, in my mind, the way to bring these two crowds back together, so a maximally competitive player learns and studies their (sub)class rather than hunts for the newest semi exploit, is to wind down the massive changes that have been nearly relentless since late 2019.

And we've just had the single biggest change in all ESO history. So many will have their complaints and many should be heard.

CrushDepth · August 4

This is a durn game, and one made up of little 1s and 0s at that. I can not see getting concerned about being "maximally competitive" at or in it, sorry, I just can not.

Get out in the real world, join the Military and perhaps serve your country,(I did not say serve your Government by the way so do not even whine about serving or not serving it) and try that for excitement and adventure. Playing chicken with a Ruskie boat at test depth while answering a Full bell will get that competitive blood rushing.

Urzigurumash · August 4

CrushDepth wrote: »

This is a durn game, and one made up of little 1s and 0s at that. I can not see getting concerned about being "maximally competitive" at or in it, sorry, I just can not.

Get out in the real world, join the Military and perhaps serve your country,(I did not say serve your Government by the way so do not even whine about serving or not serving it) and try that for excitement and adventure. Playing chicken with a Ruskie boat at test depth while answering a Full bell will get that competitive blood rushing.

This is a great bit for a game of darts or billiards at the pub too, "you guys think youre so good, wanna play a REAL game tonight?"

But yeah most of us would rather be on a submarine for sure theyre just way too expensive

licenturion · August 4

If you have all skyshards you don't need to reroll a character.

Just use your free armory station and make builds. It saves subclasses too now. You can switch between you competitive build and your fun build with the click of 1 button and back.

Since you have all the skyshards, you won't have any troubles unlocking stuff.