Revert Arcanist Class Mastery Script Banner Changes Until You Ease Crux Restrictions

randconfig · July 18

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

Prionyx · July 18

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

Arcanist is overpowered and if you think that it didn't deserve a nerf you just don't want your accessibility class nerfed

preevious · July 18

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

You mean the most blatantly overpowered build will not be able to be even more blatantly overpowered by using subclasing?
Damn, that's rough ..

CalamityCat · July 18

I can't use banner because it messes with my eyes, so I dumped it before subclassing hit PTS. Does it mean my arc is struggling? Not in the slightest. I only notice it gone because I have an extra skill slot available. Truth is, arcanists don't have to use beam on every mob they meet, and we can still kill stuff without full crux.

The problem was devs adding something they supposedly didn't intend (passive crux generation) then taking it out again. Had it always been actively generated, players wouldn't have become reliant on the banner.

I don't support giving back the passive crux gen. I've played without it with no problems. Other classes have been hit with significant changes to balance subclassing, often because of the increase in power when the arcanist skill line is added. It's only fair that arcanists get adjusted too!

mdjessup4906 · July 18

your accessibility class nerfed

I despise this kind of thinking. Wtf is wrong with accessibility? Boo hoo too easy for you. No everything shouldn't be beam if you dont want to play it, but thats the devs lack of creativity in other classes, not arcs fault for being actually well designed. And "accessible".

mdjessup4906 · July 18

Crux gen banner nerf hitting no runeblade builds is an interesting problem. Some have suggested no crux gen during beam, wich would nullify half of scholarship procs too, BUT if they increased the frequency of scholarship crux or let it generate more than one crux, it could help both beamers and non-beamers, maybe?

Change arc banner to something like weapon damage based on crux consumption or something, instead of just making it literally dead.

pinkpom · July 18

Arcanist play should be more difficult.

madmufffin · July 18

pinkpom wrote: »

Arcanist play should be more difficult.

Tentacular dread builds have probably the highest skill floor in the game. You're picking a fight with an entire class over one skill.

tomofhyrule · July 18

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Crux gen banner nerf hitting no runeblade builds is an interesting problem. Some have suggested no crux gen during beam, wich would nullify half of scholarship procs too, BUT if they increased the frequency of scholarship crux or let it generate more than one crux, it could help both beamers and non-beamers, maybe?

Change arc banner to something like weapon damage based on crux consumption or something, instead of just making it literally dead.

I feel like there are some limits to logic this way though.

We're talking about how the banner nerf is hard for players who are no-beam, no-runeblades, only-other-class-spammable builds. At which point... uhh...

Yes, Arcanist's Class Passives are based around generating and using Crux. That's the design of the Class. ZOS has come directly out and said that they intend active interaction with the Crux mechanic in order to play Arcanist effectively. This means that the build of someone playing an Arcanist line needs to use a Crux generator actively to get the full benefit from that line - each line has at least one skill which generates Crux on both morphs, and another which has one morph that generates and another that consumes. You also have Scribed skills from the weapon, world, or guild lines. The only thing you don't have is passive generation of maximum Crux.
And yes, none of that prevents you from using other Class' skills if you choose, but you will need to just intersperse them with some of the above skills. But a two-button-Arcanist-using-a-different-Class-spammable-and-Tentacles is no longer going to be effective since ZOS directly said that they do not intend passives to just give you bonuses without working for them.

Do we expect that NBs should be able to use skill-only builds (no light or heavy attacks) and still proc Grim Focus? Do we expect DKs should still be able to build stacks for whip without using Ardent Flame abilities? Same idea - they want to to engage with the mechanic in order to get the most out of it.

Letting Crux passively generate is counter to the point, and ZOS has directly come out to say that it is unintended and breaks the design of the Class.

randconfig · July 18

Prionyx wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

Arcanist is overpowered and if you think that it didn't deserve a nerf you just don't want your accessibility class nerfed

If you think Arcanist is overpowered, nerf their numbers, but mechanically, do not take away their ability to engage with Subclassing and Weapon skills.

<snipped for Trolling or Baiting>

randconfig · July 18

preevious wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

You mean the most blatantly overpowered build will not be able to be even more blatantly overpowered by using subclasing?
Damn, that's rough ..

Damn, sounds like you don't know how to read either, that's rough ..

My point is that Arcanist is the only class being restricted from using Subclassing and Weapon Skill lines, and that changes need to be made before removing the only way to work around those restrictions.

It's in the title, it's in bold, I don't know how much more "accessible" I can make it for you people.

randconfig · July 18

pinkpom wrote: »

Arcanist play should be more difficult.

Agreed, so why not nerf the beam and allow Arcanist to have a wider range of access to abilities, like all other classes have, by easing the crux restrictions.

YandereGirlfriend · July 18

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

Necromancers have entered the chat.

With their class minigame mechanic that is even more failed and restrictive than the Crux minigame.

randconfig · July 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer. If I want to subclass Grave Lord to use Flaming Skull or subclass Ardent Flame to use Lava Whip, I can't because 1/3 of my class passives simply won't work, and any crux consumption ability will be ineffective as Banner or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration will only generate a single crux and nothing more until after 30 seconds and it expires. Passives proccing a single time over 30 seconds means you have no passives.

"bUt YoU cAn StIlL sCrIbE aBiLiTiEs ThAt GeNeRaTe CrUx",
yeah but that restricts me to only use those scribed abilities. The reason Banner Bearer worked was that it was passive Crux generation, meaning I was able to use any ability spammable I wanted, including Subclassing and Weapon skill lines.

Passive crux generation sucks, I agree,
so why not let any direct damage ability generate a crux, or let Tome-Bearer's Inspiration generate a crux anytime you use a damaging ability, or literally make any change to ease these restrictions?

Until you ease these restrictions on the Arcanist class, that no other class has to deal with, then PLEASE do not remove our only method of working around them (i.e. using the class mastery script with Banner Bearer).

@ZOS_Amy @ZOS_Kevin

Necromancers have entered the chat.

With their class minigame mechanic that is even more failed and restrictive than the Crux minigame.

Necromancers minigame mechanic isn't as restrictive as the crux mechanic, you can still subclass any skill line, use weapon skills only, etc etc, and generate corpses. Yes, it's bugged and annoying to use since U46, but by design, it's less restrictive than Arcanist.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 18

randconfig wrote: »

Unlike all other classes, Arcanist can not use Subclassing or Weapon skills effectively without the Crux generation from Banner Bearer.

I think that they could add passive Crux generation to some skill morphs to address this so an Arcanist can use Snipe or Dizzying Swing as a spammable. For example, what if one of the morphs of Inspired Scholarship made it so that it wasn't class skills the triggered the Crux generation, but only non-Class skills? Maybe at reduced damage.

It would need to be adjusted so you have a way to get more than one crux, and I don't think it should be stronger than the Class skill crux-generation, but this would open a second branch of builds in a subclassing and Scribing-friendly way.

Also, there's a lot of bashing of other players in this thread by the OP. It might be better to ignore someone whose comments are unwanted--there's no winner of a forum thread lol.

ZOS_Hadeostry · July 18

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. Please post about subjects, not the community members engaged in the discussion.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here If you

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imaslowlearner · July 18

I can't take it anymore. I'm sick of arcanist. I try to play warden. My arcanist deals more damage. I try to play dragonknight. My arcanist deals more damage. I try to play night blade. My arcanist deals more damage. I want to play sorc. Her best subclass has arcanist. I want to play plar, blade. They both want arcanist.

She grabs me by the throat. I farm for her. I cook for her. I give her skillpoints. She isn't satisfied. I pull deadly lightning. "I don't need this much status" She tells me. "Give me more crit." She grabs the tank and forces him to throw himself at enemies. "You just need to buff me more. I can deal more damage with spaulder."

I can't wear spaulder, I don't have enough recovery. She grabs my parse food. I die. "Guess this is the end." She grabs Bastian. She says "Bastian, get them." There is no hint of sadness in his eyes. Nothing but pure, npc ai application. What a cruel world.

Cerbolt · July 18

Put banner bearer back to how it was and nerf the beam. I don't understand why the devs find this so difficult. The beam is the issue but they nerf everything else. It just doesn't make sense.

francesinhalover · July 19

No. Banner was extremely overpowered on arcanist.
Making it só ppl Need to use skills to build cruz is a win. Thats how arcanist is meant to BE played.

Lebensf0rm · July 19

Cerbolt wrote: »

Put banner bearer back to how it was and nerf the beam. I don't understand why the devs find this so difficult. The beam is the issue but they nerf everything else. It just doesn't make sense.

Banner is the bulk of the problem. Fatecarver is a good skill, but it's so good because it's buffed by 33% per crux. The developers' stated intent was for crux to be gained by using active "builder" skills before using a "spender" skill like Fatecarver, aside from some very limited cases (like going from no crux to 1 crux passively via Inspired Scholarship). The passive crux gain from Banner-Bearer allows players to effectively circumvent the bulk of the "building" minigame when paired with Inspired Scholarship, which arcs were already using because it's a good skill. Only needing to hit Cephaliarch's Flail once instead of twice to get a fully-charged Fatecarver dramatically increases the number of Fatecarver ticks you get in a prolonged fight; those Flails you get to skip really add up. In the absence of the extra crux from Banner-Bearer, the gap between Fatecarver and non-Fatecarver builds gets much smaller.

The rest of the problem, which many have pointed out, is that builds not based on Fatecarver generally have a hard time keeping up with it because of its length and breadth. Even target-capped, Fatecarver can hit a lot more enemies than most skills other classes have at their disposal. It cleaves extremely well, and cleave is what a lot of newer content calls for. I don't think nerfs to Fatecarver are the answer, though.I think it's acceptable for Fatecarver to be BiS in scenarios where extreme AoE burst or burst damage along a line of enemies is required. But other builds need to be able to pull as close to Fatecarver in AoE as Fatecarver does to the best single target setups. There are tons of opportunities to buff elements of other classes' toolkits to bring them in line with what Fatecarver is capable doing and stop it from dominating the PvE meta. There are plenty of essentially dead passives and morphs to buff.

That said, I think Randconfig is on to something in advocating for more active methods of crux generation. Allowing weapon skills to generate crux on cast (we don't want Hail, Wall, or Stampede to be a new Banner-Bearer) when Inspired Scholarship is up isn't a terrible idea IMO. Flexibility is a necessity in the era of subclassing. And "Play how you want", "You belong", etc. as mantras seem to suggest that flexibility is the developers' intent, anyway.

CheenTheCat · July 19

If crux gen is made easier, fatecarver needs a nerf though. Not a massive one, but enough to fall below like 3rd best in single target setup. A skill being BiS regarding multi target fights should not be on top with single target as well - that just speaks for it being too strong.

I understand balancing is by no means easy, but I'd rather be forced to deal with certain restrictions for the time being than a single specific setup outshining everything else by a mile far beyond what was ever intended!

Jestir · July 19

Tbh I think they had the answer to fatecarver, its how jabs worked before u46. The reduced damage for every enemy past the closest would significantly cut the cleave down while still allowing it to function the same, doing that and cutting out the 8% damage buff they randomly gave it should be enough to rein the skill in while not really changing how it is played for those who enjoy it.

While I am incredibly bummed out by it, I get the change to the class mastery on banner but I do hope that it at least comes out of all this still "viable" which currently doesn't seem to be the case

francesinhalover · July 19

Jestir wrote: »

Tbh I think they had the answer to fatecarver, its how jabs worked before u46. The reduced damage for every enemy past the closest would significantly cut the cleave down while still allowing it to function the same, doing that and cutting out the 8% damage buff they randomly gave it should be enough to rein the skill in while not really changing how it is played for those who enjoy it.

While I am incredibly bummed out by it, I get the change to the class mastery on banner but I do hope that it at least comes out of all this still "viable" which currently doesn't seem to be the case

They could Nerf Beam dmg by 50% and it would still BE the most used skills on the game because all others spam skills outsise of jabs feels awfull to use.

Liukke · July 19

Let's put a "kill boss" button since we're at it...O_o

The banner as it is at the moment is too strong, I have an arcanist that I use for running the daily crap.
I start with 1 crux (scholarship), then I go to the backbar to run some buffs, maybe a debuff and what, in the time I spent for it I have now a crux for free...or even better, all the new bosses where devs forgot how to do their job and simply slapped 20 invulnerability phases where they do some stupid useless stuff and you just sit and watch...I get 3 crux by just watching the show.
No other classes generate power by just running backbar/buffs/debuffs, it's simply broken.

There's a difference between accessibility and no effort, this is not about disabled people, mental disabilities included, this is just dumb and offers no reward whatsoever. Stop hiding behind the accessibility excuse as if people aren't allowed to find something utterly stupid and criticize it, the banner as it is right now offers a loophole that breaks the game for a class that already breaks the game, that's so childish and sometimes it's embarrassing how some people just don't see it.

Again, let's make a special server where everybody just oneshots everything. I'm serious, that would be the pinnacle of accessibility, go there and have fun o_o

La_Croft · July 31

Honestly I think I would have preferred if they just nerfed fatecarver damage and left banner as is. That way the banner + tentacular dread could be a nice combo that you can subclass with other spamables if they eventually bring them more in line with the power of fatecarver. 15 seconds to generate 3 cruxes, would have aligned pretty well with the 20s, 11% damage taken debuff you apply with tentacular dread. But that's just me.

randconfig · August 1

La_Croft wrote: »

Honestly I think I would have preferred if they just nerfed fatecarver damage and left banner as is. That way the banner + tentacular dread could be a nice combo that you can subclass with other spamables if they eventually bring them more in line with the power of fatecarver. 15 seconds to generate 3 cruxes, would have aligned pretty well with the 20s, 11% damage taken debuff you apply with tentacular dread. But that's just me.

Yup, it was nice and allowed for variety with the class using Tentacular Dread as a shotgun once every 15 seconds (time it took to generate 3 crux).

Maybe they'll make more changes to the class to make generating Crux easier when using subclassed spammables or weapon skill spammables... But I'm not gonna hold my breath since they refuse to even comment on this issue in the dev notes. Just play a different class if you want to have fun for now.

randconfig · August 2

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. Please post about subjects, not the community members engaged in the discussion.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here If you

It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is violating those rules, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

Sorry I got so emotional over this, and sorry to everyone I was rude to, (especially Tom). 😅