Swallow soul buff when?

FoJul · July 24

Title is pretty straight forward. With subclassing my puny range blade has been left in the dirt. And no I don't care that is viable in IA.

madmufffin · July 24

Making one of the morphs just be pure higher damage with no heal would be a nice change

Lumenn · July 24

I personally Dream of a day when Sap Tanks are buffed up to and even beyond their former GLORY as DEATH WALKERS!

Until then yeah, swallow soul would be a great start 👍

ArctosCethlenn · July 24

madmufffin wrote: »

Making one of the morphs just be pure higher damage with no heal would be a nice change

Gross.

If you want buffs just ask for buffs, don't try to come up with an unneeded nerf to offset it. Not when things like assassination and herald exist.

madmufffin · July 24

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Making one of the morphs just be pure higher damage with no heal would be a nice change

Gross.

If you want buffs just ask for buffs, don't try to come up with an unneeded nerf to offset it. Not when things like assassination and herald exist.

Making one a high high damage ranged spammable isn't a nerf. The other morph would still keep a heal component.

ArctosCethlenn · July 24

madmufffin wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Making one of the morphs just be pure higher damage with no heal would be a nice change

Gross.

If you want buffs just ask for buffs, don't try to come up with an unneeded nerf to offset it. Not when things like assassination and herald exist.

Making one a high high damage ranged spammable isn't a nerf. The other morph would still keep a heal component.

Swallow soul is already a decent ranged spammable with self healing, and quite strong when further buffed by soulcleaver. It doesn't need to give up all healing for a damage buff.

Edit: look at what they did with mag jabs recently for an example. Brought the damage up to be on par with stam, but didn't completely eliminate the healing, just reduced the damage:healing ratio a little bit to compensate. If SS needs a damage buff, that's how to do it, not by stripping the unique aspect of the skill.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 24

I think the healing is a unique part of Swallow Soul, but it could use something extra for DPS. I find it very satisfying to weave. Because it has a "drain" vibe, maybe it could give you stacks of a passive damage or resource buff.

madmufffin · July 24

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Making one of the morphs just be pure higher damage with no heal would be a nice change

Gross.

If you want buffs just ask for buffs, don't try to come up with an unneeded nerf to offset it. Not when things like assassination and herald exist.

Making one a high high damage ranged spammable isn't a nerf. The other morph would still keep a heal component.

Swallow soul is already a decent ranged spammable with self healing, and quite strong when further buffed by soulcleaver. It doesn't need to give up all healing for a damage buff.

Edit: look at what they did with mag jabs recently for an example. Brought the damage up to be on par with stam, but didn't completely eliminate the healing, just reduced the damage:healing ratio a little bit to compensate. If SS needs a damage buff, that's how to do it, not by stripping the unique aspect of the skill.

Thematically, I definitely can see the argument to keep it having a heal because of the sould draining thing, but also don't think it's hugely detrimental to give it more damage and a major/minor buff tacked on to make it more viable as a damage skill. Unlike jabs, you're not melee and there's much less inherent risk to the skill's use.

Djennku · July 25

Swallow soul does not need anadjuatment to its damage or healing. It is a very good spammable, an the healing it provides is great too. It hits just as hard as other ranged spamnables.

madmufffin · July 25

Djennku wrote: »

Swallow soul does not need anadjuatment to its damage or healing. It is a very good spammable, an the healing it provides is great too. It hits just as hard as other ranged spamnables.

The tooltip itself has parity with other range spammables, but it doesn't have any passives backing it up to provide actual parity. Since the line isn't really oriented to be dps, buffing the skill tooltip is the most suitable way to sort out that issue imo.

ArctosCethlenn · July 25

I'd personally vote for making it (and tether) still heal vs absorption shields, since right now if an enemy pops a barrier your healing goes away because damage to a shield 'doesn't count'.

After that, even just giving it a higher status effect chance would be fine as a buff if a damage buff is needed, but it isn't in a terrible spot.

Something thematic to siphoning even if it isn't damage might be better overall, it is still really weird to me that the line that's all about draining health and what not from your enemies doesn't include minor lifesteal in the kit.

FoJul · July 25

Djennku wrote: »

Swallow soul does not need anadjuatment to its damage or healing. It is a very good spammable, an the healing it provides is great too. It hits just as hard as other ranged spamnables.

Soulcleaver doesnt buff anything outside of siphoning. Soulcleaver is okay, but for pvp and pve its not that great.

In pvp Rally/Wretched gets you further than Soulcleaver.

In pve, like I said in op, its only good in IA, and even then a simple status effect build is only used in there.

Overall, lemme be free with my swallow soul. It's single target, bring that damage up.

BasP · July 25

Djennku wrote: »

Swallow soul does not need anadjuatment to its damage or healing. It is a very good spammable, an the healing it provides is great too. It hits just as hard as other ranged spamnables.

I agree that, objectively, Swallow Soul's damage is comparable to most single target ranged spammables (though of course there are exceptions such as Snipe's morphs and Runeblades with 3 active Crux).

Due to subclassing, however, I do think the opportunity cost of using Swallow Soul can be factored in. You have to take a skill line with zero offensive buffs nor other really outstanding skills for damage dealers just to be able to use Swallow Soul. Therefore I still think that some kind of buff would be nice.

Anyways, even though I definitely wouldn't be against a straight up damage increase, I wonder if some other mechanic could be interesting?

Spearblade · July 26

Swallow Soul is quite strong already, and like others have said, Soulcleaver is amazing for it. That said, something small for it is probably warranted. My pick would be a higher chance to proc Overcharged, thus granting Minor Magickasteal, further leaning into the Siphoning flavor, and a small instant damage spike that won't affect the healing based on the % of damage done.

MashmalloMan · July 26

Yeah Swallow Soul is quite fair in comparison to other ranged instant spammables. I'd probably just add a small thematic buff like "this ability always applies the Hemorrhage status effect on hit" to make it feel more blood magic related which would add a decent amount of DPS, but not put the skill over a crazy budget, and then focus on the passives and making the dot/ult more worth using for damage dealers.

As discussed in skinny's stream when going over how to better incentivise mixed damage/utility lines like this after subclassing, a great suggestion I saw was change the 3% healing done per slotted passive into 2% healing and damage done, but from both bars.

So in a situation where you have 3 front, 1 back for example, previously you'd get 9% and 3% healing done respectively, but the new version would give 8% for both bars all the time. While I don't think this would replace Assassination as the go to NB damage dealing line, it would be of great use for solo/PvP/and pure classes with the 6% resources and ult gen, as a hybrid line, avoiding completely gutting yourself for not using Assassination instead.

Also, off topicish, but on the subject of pure classing and making these odd lines usable again, I think ZOS should look to how Sorc's function. The Storm Calling line's 108 ws damage for slotting works for all skill lines, what if Assassination's did the same for the 2.5% Crit chance? Obviously that's very strong, but technically the 108 vs 2.5% is equal to the ratio we find from sets of 129 vs 3%. I think it's just worth considering some version of this because it does make taking 2-3 lines for Sorc more enticing than other classes have it, the main problem right now is Dark Magic/Daedric Summoning just kinda suck, but that passive is really well designed imp.

My only gripe with that idea is that Storm Calling becomes this base must have line. If you want Daedric Summoning, you want Storm Calling so those skills mean something per slotted. Same goes if you wanted only Dark Magic, you should probably take Storm Calling too. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue with Siphoning and a rework to the healing done passive as discussed above.. but why not something completely new instead like...

Move the 108 ws damage per slotted for Storm Calling into a new passive tree that applies any time you take ANY Sorc line. Maybe move some other passives in there. Consider adding the classes minor group buff too. This way someone could take Daedric Summoning without Storm Calling or Dark Magic, and still get 108 ws damage per slotted, 10% of your main resource, and Minor Prophecy for example.

Templar could give 2% ws damage and armor per Templar skill slotted, minor Sorcery, and -5% resource/ult cost, etc. Add something new in the places these passives were taken from.

Unless they did this for all classes at the same time, it wouldn't really work given the current context of the game, but I think it would be an interesting way to promote subclassing and pureclassing, rather than what is now where lines are just completely killed off or made redundant for the majority of content.

Major_Mangle · July 26

I kinda have to agree, the spammable is complete dogwater unless you run soulcleaver, but even with soulcleaver it's barely viable. The skill could definitely get some love to be more competitive outside the occasional use with soulcleaver.

Lebensf0rm · July 29

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

YandereGirlfriend · July 29

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

Funnel Health is actually pretty cracked if you've used it recently. It's super slept-on in like BGs or at least it was before subclassing.

I would look elsewhere for changes.

MincMincMinc · July 29

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

I think having the guaranteed status effects on skills is a mistake. You are just stacking flat layers and effects onto something that could have its value simply increased or active concept changed. We don't need 5 paragraph explanations for skills. Designing around systems that are poorly described on youtuber wiki's is just not a good idea.

A more active function like at higher hp it does more damage, at lower hp it does more healing is unique and simple. At the same time it forces the user to think more each weave about how the skill will be used.

nadrokal · July 29

Just my personal opinion, Soulcleaver is okay I guess, but involves giving up a 5 piece bonus for a dps buff to like 3 skills, one of which is a single target dot and another an ultimate (I am deliberately ignoring Drain Power, having to actually hit something with it to get my buffs just feels awful to me. Being in combat should be enough). The transfer passive is nice, but I certainly wouldn't say no to a tooltip increase to Swallow Soul.

Tonturri · July 29

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

Funnel Health is actually pretty cracked if you've used it recently. It's super slept-on in like BGs or at least it was before subclassing.

I would look elsewhere for changes.

Isn't Funnel Health a super strong HoT when doing trials? Covers a nice amount of allies per cast, too.

Certainly wouldn't mind getting more damage on Swallow Soul (presumably while keeping the healing return the same), but I'd much rather see the other skills get some love.

Lebensf0rm · July 29

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

I think having the guaranteed status effects on skills is a mistake. You are just stacking flat layers and effects onto something that could have its value simply increased or active concept changed. We don't need 5 paragraph explanations for skills. Designing around systems that are poorly described on youtuber wiki's is just not a good idea.

I don't understand the notion that status effects are mysterious or poorly described. The F1 menu explains damage types and their respective status effects, and a more detailed description on ESOHub is probably going to be the first thing you'll see after searching for something like "ESO Hemorrhaging". Moreover, stating that an ability procs hemorrhaging with each tick would only require a single line, rather than "5 paragraphs". Max hemorrhaging stacks are also the strongest status DoT in the game; being able to reliably keep those stacks up on a target is desirable. I'd rather see a unique and potent interaction with status effects that fits the line's theme than a simple tooltip increase.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

Both Muffin and Mashmallo have good ideas: Strife could use a pure damage morph, and a skill that applies hemorrhaging would be thematically appropriate for the Siphoning line. I think Funnel Health is more or less a dead morph, so replacing it with a skill that does as much or slightly more upfront damage than Swallow Soul and applies hemorrhaging every tick for some time could be cool. The Siphoning line probably needs more tweaks than that to see it picked for builds other than bombers and ult batteries, though.

Funnel Health is actually pretty cracked if you've used it recently. It's super slept-on in like BGs or at least it was before subclassing.

I would look elsewhere for changes.

Funnel Health's range is somewhat stubby, but if people are successfully using it as an alternative or addition to Radiating Regen, I guess it can stay. Honestly, given the state of the line, adding hemorrhaging to Swallow Soul probably wouldn't make the skill overpowered.

Vaqual · July 29

Swallow Soul gives the caster an exceptional amount of healing per damage done (6 x ca 35 % unmodified, non-purgable). The issue with this is, that this function basically goes against its role as a spammable. While spamming or alternating you can pretty much double the healing rate compared to the natural tick rate, but you lose up to ca 85 % of the total heal per cast. If the ability would need a sensible buff, then it should meet both roles in the middle. Maybe a % damage buff per remaining ticks on the caster on early recasts (1-5 ticks, maybe 2% each).

A guaranteed Hemo would make the ability very very strong, maybe not completely OP due to the way it interacts with shields (which is a big drawback), but pretty much borderline. Maintaining magic as type + a high chance for Hemo procs (15 % base) would probably be way more appropriate and wouldn't dump so hard on the already nerfed charged trait.

I'd go with one of those, but not more. The ability is in a pretty weird spot for balancing, because Soul Cleaver buffs it so hard, while it is hard to justify bringing it without the set.

This ability has never left my bar since I created my NB and it really did not serve me well most of the time. But for me it just defines the class. I'd like it to be better, but I'd hate it if it would become OP.

YandereGirlfriend · August 1

I had to fully refresh myself on just how weak SS is compared to other competing spammables, and yes, it is quite grim!

Even using Soulcleaver, it only buffed my SS ticks to the level of a non-Proc Frags (and Frags is already an underdog spammable in the era of Arcanists, etc.).

And wasting an entire 5-piece just to turn your SS into a Poor Man's Frags is just not it, particularly when considering that the curse of the set is like applying Minor Timidity to yourself if you're using it as a spammable. Hard pass on that use case.

Considering that we have Scribing skills out there that heal and/or can apply things like MAJOR Vitality to you, there's no reason for why SS can't deal at least Frags-level damage as a base and retain its full heal. And ideally all of the underdog spammables can receive a tooltip buff on top of that as well.