Please take the taunt in Runic Jolt away from Arcanist!!

ElderSmitter · July 20

It's getting more and more annoying Tanking with all META arcanists in PUG's stealing Taunt and not even knowing they are doing so. I just watch the taunt counter. I am letting them die now instead of taunting back the enemy, so they learn. Arcanist do not need a taunt...

Jestir · July 20

It's a dedicated tank skill in the dedicated tanking line

0 reason to take it away

Urzigurumash · July 20

Some people say we should only balance around the top tier players. I'm not sure that's realistic. But, I would agree we shouldn't balance around players who don't even know what they're doing, or what skills they're running.

DragonRacer · July 20

Uh, my ArcTank needs it soooo…

FadeShade · July 20

NO!

I like my arcanist taunt.

Desiato · July 20

What ZOS needs to do is introduce Undaunted Basic Training to explain what a taunt is, the value of orbs, don't stand in red, etc..

How would the average player ever learn these things?

It could come in the form of instances. Maybe a series of four, starting with normal base game, normal dlc, vet normal and then vet dlc.

It would have to be WAY better than that brutally bad, nearly irrelevant tutorial they added to the intro quest.

They should need to pass basic tests to become accredited in each role before they can queue into vet dlc dungeons with them.

FadeShade · July 20

Desiato wrote: »

What ZOS needs to do is introduce Undaunted Basic Training to explain what a taunt is, the value of orbs, don't stand in red, etc..

How would the average player ever learn these things?

It could come in the form of instances. Maybe a series of four, starting with normal base game, normal dlc, vet normal and then vet dlc.

It would have to be WAY better than that brutally bad, nearly irrelevant tutorial they added to the intro quest.

They should need to pass basic tests to become accredited in each role before they can queue into vet dlc dungeons with them.

They learn the same way I did and everyone else did: by playing the game, learning from mistakes and following good advice from more experienced, helpful players.

I agree the starting tutorial is awful. By the time it makes sense you are already well beyond it. It is largely meaningless for overland but even in pugs you meet nice, helpful players who are willing to offer good advice and suggestions to help improve.

Like don't use the arcanist taunt skill unless you are tanking.

No need for any other tutorials or gatekeeping tests, just be open to helpful suggestions from more experienced players and pass it forward in due course.

ElderSmitter · July 20

Jestir wrote: »

It's a dedicated tank skill in the dedicated tanking line

0 reason to take it away

Clearly it is not because i am a Tank and run all kinds of content and see it more and more on DPS.. You rarely can even run a PUG Vet dungeon without a dps stealing taunt anymore.

Cooperharley · July 20

ElderSmitter wrote: »

It's getting more and more annoying Tanking with all META arcanists in PUG's stealing Taunt and not even knowing they are doing so. I just watch the taunt counter. I am letting them die now instead of taunting back the enemy, so they learn. Arcanist do not need a taunt...

Nah, this is a staple of arcanist tanking lol. Doesn't make any sense to do this. They just need to make it more obvious in the description somehow.

ElderSmitter · July 20

This does not need a taunt if it is being run reckless by DPS. With the now SUPER META Arcanist lol..

Runic Sunder
Craft a defensive Apocryphal rune that deals 1161 Physical Damage. The rune steals 2200 Armor and applies Minor Maim for 15 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%. The rune also taunts for 15 seconds if it would not cause taunt immunity, and generates Crux. While slotted, damage taken is reduced by 2% per active Crux.

Or take away the Crux generation so it is dropped by DPS and Left for Tanks...

Desiato · July 20

FadeShade wrote: »

No need for any other tutorials or gatekeeping tests, just be open to helpful suggestions from more experienced players and pass it forward in due course.

There's no good way to tell someone their DPS is sub par in the middle of a run. Occasionally, I've seen tanks try to get orbs from healers, but that's hit and miss.

The only role that gets serious training in vet dungeon pugs is tanks because it becomes essential.

Only gaming enthusiasts intuitively think about seeking out this knowledge.

The thing is, most of these 5k dps DDs or the healers standing away from the group not doing anything until they see a health bar drop don't realize they make the mistakes. And the tanks that do learn in groups are faced with an unfair trial by fire.

How can you say there is no need for the game to prepare players for the content it presents to them? Of course there is a need. I can see how someone could take my suggestion as a form of gatekeeping, but it is the opposite. It is gate opening.

I bet countless players queue into a vet random, have an absolutely terrible experience and never go back.

FadeShade · July 20

If a dd steals taunt from tank in vet dungeon then that's their problem. They will die very quickly in dlc vet dungeons doing that. Probably not so much in base game dungeons. Just leave them to it and enjoy the show.

What seems to happen less over the short time I have played is pug dd's destroying everything very quickly that they aggro in vet. recently, dd's seem to be habituated from normal dungeons and haven't learned to slow down and just die a lot by running ahead and aggroing everything. Those ones also don't seem to have a clue about mechanics and die a lot anyway, even when they do slow down a bit. Those silly ones are really funny.

I don't mind killer dd's who know what they are doing if I am pug-tank in vet dungeon. Quite good fun to watch, mostly.

Orbital78 · July 20

ElderSmitter wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

It's a dedicated tank skill in the dedicated tanking line

0 reason to take it away

Clearly it is not because i am a Tank and run all kinds of content and see it more and more on DPS.. You rarely can even run a PUG Vet dungeon without a dps stealing taunt anymore.

Show them the way, could it be similar to Inner Rage of the past? If you're going to take away taunts lets do it to toppling charge for templars so dps can use the gap closer again.

Soarora · July 20

Desiato wrote: »

What ZOS needs to do is introduce Undaunted Basic Training to explain what a taunt is, the value of orbs, don't stand in red, etc..

How would the average player ever learn these things?

I agree but also taunts do say "taunts the enemy to attack you" in the descriptions of skills.

ElderSmitter wrote: »

It's getting more and more annoying Tanking with all META arcanists in PUG's stealing Taunt and not even knowing they are doing so. I just watch the taunt counter. I am letting them die now instead of taunting back the enemy, so they learn. Arcanist do not need a taunt...

They're not meta if they have a taunt slotted, that's not what meta means. It's also not even in the same line as beam... are you sure they're using runic sunder to taunt and not say, inner fire or something else?

ElderSmitter · July 20

A dead DPS does no DPS... DPS is not a word. It is short for Damage Per Second

So, when you are a dps saying you can do 100k on a trial dummy. Then proceed to do a vet dungeon steal taunt and die your 100k DPS goes to 0 a big goose egg and you are doing no DPS...

Some friendly advice from a Tank. Take off Runic jolt when running in groups because unless you are a Tank using it you are killing your DPS anyways by dying.

Cheers!

LunaFlora · July 20

That is extremely likely new and inexperienced players using Taunts because they don't know any better. Just tell them that taunts are for tanks.
Everyone has to learn what a taunt is at some point.

And personally i love Runic Jolt, Soldier of Apocrypha is an awesome tank line.

Desiato · July 20

A well designed game will have a basic tutorial that is immediately relevant, and then add new concepts gradually, preparing players for what comes next.

ESO does none of this. It's the easiest game a person has ever played and then BAM.

I was actually this player in 2014. For as much as I talk about how much I miss vet overland, when I first encountered it, I had a meltdown.

Levels 1-50 were so easy, even back then, so I started Cadwell's Silver in VR1 Stonefalls, took the first quest, went into a pack of mobs and got DESTROYED. I had no idea what I was doing, and crucially, I didn't know it!

I was so embarrassed and bewildered. I left angry feedback. But shortly after I looked in the mirror and realized I didn't actually know how to play ESO. I would experience something similar later when I started PVPing, although without the embarrassment or meltdown.

I taught myself to play, how competently assemble builds, started bar swapping and had a great time through VR levels. And then several weeks later when VR content was first nerfed, I was disappointed.

So instead correcting the issue, ZOS just started nerfing their own mechanics and as a result most combat is trivial. It's a shame. It's not too late, they can still start preparing players.

FadeShade · July 20

Desiato wrote: »

FadeShade wrote: »

No need for any other tutorials or gatekeeping tests, just be open to helpful suggestions from more experienced players and pass it forward in due course.

There's no good way to tell someone their DPS is sub par in the middle of a run. Occasionally, I've seen tanks try to get orbs from healers, but that's hit and miss.

The only role that gets serious training in vet dungeon pugs is tanks because it becomes essential.

Only gaming enthusiasts intuitively think about seeking out this knowledge.

The thing is, most of these 5k dps DDs or the healers standing away from the group not doing anything until they see a health bar drop don't realize they make the mistakes. And the tanks that do learn in groups are faced with an unfair trial by fire.

How can you say there is no need for the game to prepare players for the content it presents to them? Of course there is a need. I can see how someone could take my suggestion as a form of gatekeeping, but it is the opposite. It is gate opening.

I bet countless players queue into a vet random, have an absolutely terrible experience and never go back.

I was told. And advised. I think I was healer and doing 'damage' instead of support. I was given good advice and followed it because it was good advice. Sometimes others are not always polite or, maybe, what they mean is but what they write or say isn't. But good advice is good advice.

I think when you get to 50th level you get an email that says you can queue for vet dungeons. Maybe it would help if that was changed, I don't know. You see lots of sub-cp160 players even in base game vet dungeon pugs and they are undergeared and need carried. Or maybe want carried? Maybe the email shouldn't say 'ready for vet dungeons' until they reach 160 champion points and advise them to get crafted gear for their level and role until they can farm some?

You're right, you don't know when starting out in vet and think you're doing ok because stuff dies and you make progress with group until someone says 'get combat metrics' or 'you need spc' or 'you need more resistances and health' or something rude but still helpful or something rude and just not nice. Eventually you start to look at sets and passives and skills and read and think about them and how they might work together in different dungeons in different ways and setups. But advice is still really useful.

DenverRalphy · July 20

DPS arcanists that have Runic Jolt/Morphs slotted are most definitely not meta arcanists.

And what do you mean Arcanists don't need a taunt? Every class needs a taunt. Arcanists are allowed to play as a tank just like whatever class you're playing. And Runic Jolt sits right there at the top of the "Soldier of Apocrypha" skiill line, which is the skill line designed for tanking.

Your issue isn't Arcanists having a taunt. Your issue is you're playing with players who don't know what they're doing.

ElderSmitter · July 20

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DPS arcanists that have Runic Jolt/Morphs slotted are most definitely not meta arcanists.

And what do you mean Arcanists don't need a taunt? Every class needs a taunt. Arcanists are allowed to play as a tank just like whatever class you're playing. And Runic Jolt sits right there at the top of the "Soldier of Apocrypha" skiill line, which is the skill line designed for tanking.

Your issue isn't Arcanists having a taunt. Your issue is you're playing with players who don't know what they're doing.

This has been an issue since day 1 when the Arcanist was born. It is just more common now that Arcanist is more Meta.

DenverRalphy · July 20

ElderSmitter wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DPS arcanists that have Runic Jolt/Morphs slotted are most definitely not meta arcanists.

And what do you mean Arcanists don't need a taunt? Every class needs a taunt. Arcanists are allowed to play as a tank just like whatever class you're playing. And Runic Jolt sits right there at the top of the "Soldier of Apocrypha" skiill line, which is the skill line designed for tanking.

Your issue isn't Arcanists having a taunt. Your issue is you're playing with players who don't know what they're doing.

This has been an issue since day 1 when the Arcanist was born. It is just more common now that Arcanist is more Meta.

Arcanists aren't any more meta than they were before subclassing. The "Herald of the Tome" skill line itself sure. But Runic Jolt and its morphs are in the "Soldier of Apocrypha" skill line, which none of the meta DPS builds are using.

Sarannah · July 20

No thanks, I use this taunt to tank!

mdjessup4906 · July 24

If they're running runic jolt, they're not a meta arc they're some new player/new to dps and leveling an alt that doesn't understand what a taunt is in this game. I've run into many of those over the years, apparently other games aggro mechs are very different from eso. And its not something you really need to think about unless your a tank (or a high level healer), and how may of us are there again?

Reminds me of when Necrom first came out lol. Take it as a sign new people are coming in. That's good right?

CalamityCat · July 25

I don't think the skill needs changing, though maybe it help if the first time you slot a taunt, you get a message pop up explaining what that is/does. Taunting, like healing, should be something that players learn about in the tutorial. When a player is ready to start running dungeons, I think it'd be helpful if they had intro quests where they can try each role. It might encourage more newbies to try support roles.

Otherwise, all you can do is point out that the DD is using a taunt and ask them to stop. If they don't, let them die repeatedly and they'll learn the hard way. Sometimes natural selection works. It's how some players learn to stay in range of the healer and let the tank do tank things.

cyclonus11 · July 25

If I'm tanking and a non-tank takes the taunt, I just let them have it. :shrug:

Liukke · July 25

I've tanked lots of pugs, dungeons and trials.

Yes sometimes they steal the taunt but whatever, I either clarify it in chat (takes one second) or I just let it happen...no reason to remove a feature from a skill for a 0.1% of cases.

And besides, if somebody is so dumb as to slot in a taunt skill, they won't be able to finish a vet hard mode or a trial anyway...so the problem lies somewhere else.

twisttop138 · July 25

SUPER META Arcanist. I'm feeling like you're using words that you don't quite understand what they mean. If they were meta Arcanists, they wouldn't have soldier of apocrypha. They would have assassination and maybe dawns wrath or aedric spear or grave lord. So no taunt. Since I play one, I can assure you. Now did you take a second and let them know their error?

Eta: @DenverRalphy beat me to it.
Seriously though, we should be taking time to help people learn. People talk about gatekeeping but without new blood, endgame dies. We want people to come in, have a good time and want to go further, hm dungeons, vet trials. I know not everyone is receptive and may even be rude but don't let that discourage you.

ArchMikem · July 25

Jestir wrote: »

It's a dedicated tank skill in the dedicated tanking line

0 reason to take it away

It may be in the Tanking skill tree, but it still provides a lot of utility for solo players WITH some damage sprinkled on top. There's no reason for DD's to not slot it and they simply ignore the bit about it also being a Taunt. I can understand the OP's frustration.

DenverRalphy · July 25

ArchMikem wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

It's a dedicated tank skill in the dedicated tanking line

0 reason to take it away

It may be in the Tanking skill tree, but it still provides a lot of utility for solo players WITH some damage sprinkled on top. There's no reason for DD's to not slot it and they simply ignore the bit about it also being a Taunt. I can understand the OP's frustration.

The key words being solo players. A solo build isn't dps, tank, or healer. It's all 3 roles simultaneously as solo requires a modicum of self sufficiency. However the OP wasn't talking about solo play, as they were talking about group play.