* Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks

Its_MySniff · July 19

Homophobic/transphobic abuse from a name change. I think you are reaching. How do you come to that conclusion? I agree with some of what you say, just not with your witch hunt.

AngryPenguin · July 19

Gegensmith wrote: »

I would not be posting this on the forums had something very alarming not happened TWICE now in the space of a week.

Last weekend, our long-standing LGBTQ+-friendly guild, Pacrooti's Hirelings (founded 2014 on PC-EU and 2015 on PC-NA, the longest-running guild of this kind on either server) experienced a forced name-change by ZoS. That was on Saturday.

The name was changed to "Ready Room". It upset and alarmed me and my members. I spent literally hours scouring my event logs and firewall logs to see if there was any evidence of having been hacked.

This is partly because when I logged into my support tickets, the message from ZoS was that guild names such as "Catzputin" were not allowed. There was no record of a ticket from me asking to change it to Catzputin. It made no sense whatsoever.

I eventually received a response on Monday that said "I apologize for the confusion. No disciplinary action will be taken against this account and your guild name will remain Pacrooti's Hirelings." However, the guild name was still not restored nor was any explanation offered as to why or how this had happened. They did offer a small number of crowns by way of compensation for the inconvenience.

I responded asking for an explanation and specifically mentioned the time I'd spent trying to ascertain whether my account was secure or not. I also asked them to ACTUALLY restore the guild's name, since that hadn't been done.

I got a response on Wednesday saying that they'd finally restored the guild's name (it had been changed for 5 days by then) and claiming that "Please note that, due to security concerns, we are unable to discuss the details of our investigations."

No reassurance that my account was secure. No explanation about what had happened. This was clearly a wholly inadequate response. I had written that "If it was human error, that is completely fine and understandable" and also that "I appreciate that you may not be able to share all details" but confirming that my account is secure, the guild is safe for my 500 members, and that we did not need to worry any further was the very least we could expect.

On Thursday evening I got this response: "After a careful examination of the account, we found no evidence that it had been compromised. The account was reported for using the name [Pacrooti's Hirelings]. The agent initially believed this name violated policy as it was using proprietary name character from Elder Scrolls Online and issued an educational warning; however, the incorrect name was included in the standard message by mistake. During the appeal process, it was determined that the agent mistakenly referenced the wrong name. Upon further review, it was concluded that the reported name did not constitute a violation."

Now, that IS the kind of response that was needed with the first message.

HOWEVER, this evening I received a flurry of worried messages on discord from guild-members and, logging into PC-NA have discovered that our guild-name has been changed AGAIN!?!

It now appears as "Echoes of Valhalla". This is literally just after having received a support mail from ZoS confirming that the name we have had for a decade is OF COURSE completely fine.

It is also the same day I had launched a new fundraising process for the guild to support our trader, which this has disrupted significantly. Several members had already left the guild before I was able to send out a GodSend ingame mail to reassure everyone.

Furthermore and MOST WORRYINGLY:

These events have another important context. Another long-standing LGBTQ+ guild on PC EU was recently subjected to a forced name-change. That, after some time, was eventually restored to its original name.

Within the space of one week, our guild has been subjected to a forced name-change TWICE, and it just so happens that on BOTH the days (and ONLY on those days), I had spent a little time in zone-chat advertising us as the "longest-standing LGBTQ+-friendly guild on PC" (to top our membership back up to 500).

The first was on a Saturday when an immediate customer service response is unlikely. The second is now on a Friday evening that has similar problems.

There are of course several possibilities as to how this has happened.

ZoS has some new staff dealing with guild-name reports that need better training. OR, these reports are being handled by some form of AI that, again, needs better training. OR, and as it is beginning to look more likely, LGBTQ+-friendly guilds are being subjected to a campaign of malign reporting by bad actors in the game.

That is why I am tagging @Zos__Kevin, @Zos_Bill, @Zos_GinaBruno, (those are the ones I know to tag, please add any others) in the hope (1) that this ridiculous situation is resolved speedily with the minimum of disruption to my guild and its members and (2) that ZoS look into this -- at the VERY LEAST -- surprising coincidence of forced name-changes being imposed on LGBTQ+-friendly guilds in-game.

There has been a rash of unexplained and unwarranted bans happening in Cyrodiil too. People who've been playing since 2014 with the same toon name are getting hit out of the blue for no reason and with no explanation.

This is not good.

Koshka · July 19

redspecter23 wrote: »

As the guild leader of a guild that is actually called Ready Room, I'm rather upset that they would choose the name of an already existing guild to swap you into. Had this remained in place, would there have been two guilds with identical names? I can only imagine the issues that would cause.

In addition to all the concerns raised by the original poster, I'd like to have ZOS please check if the name they are forcing upon a guild is already in use. Thanks.

It's really really strange that they decided to change their guild name to a random name of already existing guild. This whole situation is just bizarre. O.o

Gegensmith · July 19

In what way can this be construed as a "witch hunt"? Who, exactly, are the targets of this "hunt"?

I have made an evidence-based argument for a change in the procedures for dealing with reports of inappropriate guild names.

Perhaps if you had in fact spent time advertising for an LGBTQ+-friendly guild in-game, you would be aware that our mere existence generates phobic, hate-driven responses. It is perfectly reasonable, given that we have had this name for a decade and have been subjected to a forced-name change TWICE in a week's space, to conclude that it is motivated by similar responses.

I appreciate that you may be speaking from a far more toxic political climate from the one in which I exist. Kindly keep that to yourself.

AngryPenguin · July 19

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Nobody at any company should be allowed to change Production data, unless

1) proper JIT elevation is in place (permissions granted only as needed)
2) a 2nd person observes the change as a witness and provides attestation that everything went as expected

This is basic security and privileged access management. So what is going on with ZOS Customer Service?

Problem is too much reliance on an AI system that needs more improvement before it should be used on a live system. And once you have a problem it's extremely difficult to get through the maze and deal with an actual real live CS agent. Many people who've gotten unwarranted bans just give up and leave the game because navigating through to customer service is just too much hassle.

Its_MySniff · July 19

Aren't you saying people mass reported the guild with no proof? I apologize if I misunderstood. Also, I'm not toxic or political. And to add, I put the B in lgbtq, I just don't assume a name change has anything to do with hate. As long as I'm not breaking any rules, I won't keep anything to myself. Cheers

Gegensmith · July 19

I suggest, Its_MySniff, that you try to follow the arguments that are actually made.

I don't believe nor did I argue that our guild was "mass" reported. I assume it is one or two bad actors at work.

You failed to explain in what way any of this constitutes a "witch hunt" -- who, exactly are the "witches" being "hunted"? If that is not toxic political language, what exactly is it?

If you are suggesting that I have said that players have reported our guild and that I have no proof that this has happened, I would suggest you return to the first post and read more carefully: ZoS said during the course of the correspondence via the support-ticket system that they were responding to a report of an "inappropriate guild name".

I've offered the evidence-base for my conclusions. You are free to draw different conclusions, but that requires you to actually look at the evidence.

exiars10 · July 19

Gegensmith wrote: »

Whitecrow, I believe I identified that in the original posting.

(1) another long-standing LGBTQ+-friendly guild was subjected to a similar process only one week before.

(2) we have now been subjected to it TWICE. On BOTH occasions, I had spent some time advertising the guild in zone-chat. Our advert reads "the longest-running LGBTQ+-friendly guild on PC". Those were the ONLY days in the past couple of weeks that I'd advertised. We have had the same name for a DECADE. That these malicious reports were made on the SAME days that I'd been advertising the guild is why I draw that conclusion.

I'm going to tell you you are not the special one (LGBTQ+) who are target.
Why? This is happening in PC EU, too and has nothing with what you constantly mention (LGBTQ+).

This week, my main Guild which is one of the biggest trading one with merchant in Vivec which is the best place on PC EU - has partner guilds which is widespread in PC EU. So there are 4 in partnership / alliance (whatever you call it). Guess what?
This week, two of them were forced to change name. Yes, pure trading guild with top spots. Name was fine for so long, but not any more this week. Nobody knows why.

Also, guildmaster got a warning for ad in zone chat almost on the same they when partner guilds were forced to change name.

But, there is more - there is one account which posts in zone chat about selling gold for real money even with full address which is obviously prohibited. It goes for months. I can't post it as we have to protect privacy.

And this is also related to players reporting that they are suddenly forced to change names on 10 years old accounts, many even got temporary ban.

TL; DR
Welcome to the glorious future where bots ("AI") run internet aka dead Internet theory.

16BitForestCat · July 19

(Poor @ZOS_Kevin...if it's not thing, it's another on ye olde forums dot elderscrollsonline dot com.

)

thejadefalcon wrote: »

[...] you can say all you like that reports aren't handled by AI, but I'm sorry, very few people believe you. And if they do believe you, you understand how that makes ZOS look worse, right?

Dear sweet Divines, THIS. If it's not "AI is mishandling this," it's "We're signing on incompetent and/or malicious people/support centers to handle our customer service, then failing to (re)train them properly to avoid these situations or axe them if they are malicious." And both are a terrible look for ZOS. I get it. You probably only have what your overlords holding the purse strings will let you have for support, but it's still the sort of thing that will cost you players opening their wallets if it goes on.

redspecter23 wrote: »

As the guild leader of a guild that is actually called Ready Room, I'm rather upset that they would choose the name of an already existing guild to swap you into. Had this remained in place, would there have been two guilds with identical names? I can only imagine the issues that would cause.

This brings up something else that came into my mind. Reading the messages Gegensmith exchanged with support, it seems someone is falsely filing abuse reports. And requesting guild name changes they don't actually have the authority to request? It can't be coincidence that both name changes were to the names of already-existing and well-known guilds Ready Room and Echoes of Valhalla. Why is ZOS customer support not making sure the requester really does have permission to do this? And that the names aren't already taken?

So if we've got someone (or multiple someones) falsely requesting guild name changes, then they're not just harassing one person, or even one guild. They're by extension harassing every single member of ALL THREE guilds—Gegensmith's already said Pacrooti's has lost members due to these malicious actions because it destroys trust. No one wants to be in a guild that may have a bad actor lurking and waiting to cause trouble. If all three guilds are near the 500-player cap, that's about 1,500 people being affected by just a few false reports. This seems like something ZOS should be taking very seriously.

(I remember quite a few years back, someone on the forums posted ZOS CS conversation screenshots, complaining their character name was force-changed as "inappropriate" even though it was a very generic, non-offensive name that didn't go against ESO lore. When the person appealed and asked why their name was deemed inappropriate to begin with, the customer service representative admitted that they got so many tickets that they didn't always bother to verify before taking action; they just trusted the reporter was acting in good faith. I think of that conversation a LOT lately....)

Gegensmith · July 19

exiars10, that's very interesting, thank you.

Could I ask for some more details?

Your guild-leaders would have received a support ticket giving details about why the name was considered inappropriate. What reason was given there?

What, exactly, were the names of the guilds that were changed? I've spent considerable time in the last few months tracking guild trader slots, so I'm sure to know of them.

For the change to be put into effect, a report would have had to have been made. Which means that someone is making these reports.

You're right, I can't know for sure what the motivations are in each case. I've offered the evidence I have available to me and drawn conclusions from that.

Whether those conclusions are correct or not, the fact remains that there is a problem here.

I am, right now, looking at my data exports for sales from my guild for this week. I can't reconcile them due to the forced change. It's incredibly disruptive. It's also lost us members. And there is a general sense of alarm within the guild membership.

The most recent forced name-change is clearly inappropriate, given that just over a day before ZoS had confirmed that our name is completely fine.

I believe we need a new procedure that, with the exception of cases that involve clear harm, offense, or illegality, name-changes are NOT enforced WITHOUT prior consultation with a guild-leader.

emilyhyoyeon · July 19

mrreow wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I saw someone maybe like 6 or so months ago with a character clearly designed around being a mockery/caricature of a trans person, including in name. I reported their character name, and CS responded that TOS had not been violated.

Hmm I would like to see that because it does not sit well with me to punish anyone for character creator sliders. What was the name like? Something with transportation means using rails?

0/10

Juju_beans · July 19

I suspect AI may be the culprit. It seems to be happening in other games i play as well.

Syldras · July 19

I can remember a thread in this forum some years ago, about exactly that part of the TOS: The use of significant names from within the game, like npc names (and I think even item and place names), for our own naming purposes, being it username, character name or guild names, is forbidden. Official reasoning behind it is that they want to avoid confusion between official and player-generated content.

Of course, in a roleplaying game where many players enjoy making their character a part of the fictional world and refering to existing family names or place names in their player character's name, this caused quite a discussion. In that thread, there were many questions for clarification, and in the end we got explained that using different first name + surname combinations was fine, using place names (for example as a part of Redguard name) would also not be prosecuted. But exact copies of names are forbidden. So you could not name your character "Queen Ayrenn", "Mirri Elendis" or "Pacrooti", for example. Same applies for usernames and guild names.

Now of course I wonder whether the situation described in this thread might have been a case, maybe even AI-based, where the usage of "Pacrooti" in the guild name triggered a report, and then there was dissent whether the name as a whole, including "Hirelings", would break the TOS or not, especially the reasoning of "name might lead to confusion between official game content and player-generated content" part. First mod might have decided differently than the second one.

That was generally part of the discussion back then: The wish for very clearly and detailedly defined rules so there could never ensue the problem of causing a TOS violation by just understanding or individually interpreting a rule differently.

JavaRen · July 19

There have always been, and still are a -ton- of guilds with names like Zenithar's Builders, or such. None of these guilds are being targetted or actioned, so I'm pretty sure that they are fine, and OP's guild name should be permitted.

thejadefalcon · July 19

whitecrow wrote: »

I'm struggling to see what being "LGBTQ" has to do with any of this. Situation is odd but could have happened to any guild.

Its_MySniff wrote: »

Homophobic/transphobic abuse from a name change. I think you are reaching. How do you come to that conclusion? I agree with some of what you say, just not with your witch hunt.

While you are correct in that we have absolutely no way to know for certain, this game's population (whether that's in-game, on these forums or on other social media) have a big problem with anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry. Anyone who's paid attention will have seen the rampant transphobic threads on this forum, the constant misgendering of Tanlorin on Reddit or the incessant "I'm a paedophile, can I join your guild" type comments when LGBTQ+ guilds advertise in-game. It. Is. Awful. And while, again, we can't say for sure that these actions are because of bigots, it's not exactly a losing bet to assume it's the normal morons at work.

MreeBiPolar · July 19

thejadefalcon wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

xencthlu wrote: »

This is horrible. It looks on the face of it plain bigoted bullying. It might not be relevant, but I've noticed that CS seems to have difficulties with LGBTQ+ issues overall. I reported someone in zone chat for calling a Pacrooti's Hirelings recruiter mentally ill for being gay, and I was told by CS this didn't violate any policies. It gave me pause at the time, but I left it alone. Now, with this, I wonder if there's a larger cultural problem in the CS department.

I saw someone maybe like 6 or so months ago with a character clearly designed around being a mockery/caricature of a trans person, including in name. I reported their character name, and CS responded that TOS had not been violated.

Customer support is consistently terrible at handling hate speech. I know you like to claim it, @ZOS_Kevin, and you can say all you like that reports aren't handled by AI, but I'm sorry, very few people believe you.

I have while not definitive proof, but very strong evidence that these reports aren't handled by AI. They are handled by automated scripts which are completely incapable of even AI level checks. If you ask for a clarification, you will get just a standard "we have investigated and everything is correct" template.

agelonestar · July 19

This isn't the only such issue I have heard about - directly from GMs of guilds - during this week.

What's more worrying is that I believe the other guild also specifically advertises as LGBTQ+ friendly. In the other case, the name was also changed back on appeal - very similarly worded messages. I won't name the guild until I have spoken with the GM.

What is going on here?

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 19

Posted in wrong thread. But yes, this is alarming, but nothing new. Even this forum is awful at moderating against a lot of bigotry, which their TOS says they have zero tolerance for.

LootAllTheStuff · July 19

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

xencthlu wrote: »

This is horrible. It looks on the face of it plain bigoted bullying. It might not be relevant, but I've noticed that CS seems to have difficulties with LGBTQ+ issues overall. I reported someone in zone chat for calling a Pacrooti's Hirelings recruiter mentally ill for being gay, and I was told by CS this didn't violate any policies. It gave me pause at the time, but I left it alone. Now, with this, I wonder if there's a larger cultural problem in the CS department.

I saw someone maybe like 6 or so months ago with a character clearly designed around being a mockery/caricature of a trans person, including in name. I reported their character name, and CS responded that TOS had not been violated.

Customer support is consistently terrible at handling hate speech. I know you like to claim it, @ZOS_Kevin, and you can say all you like that reports aren't handled by AI, but I'm sorry, very few people believe you.

I have while not definitive proof, but very strong evidence that these reports aren't handled by AI. They are handled by automated scripts which are completely incapable of even AI level checks. If you ask for a clarification, you will get just a standard "we have investigated and everything is correct" template.

I don't know how ZOS actually handles their CS - whether it's in-house or out-sourced. For other customer support services I've had interaction with, other than the initial confirmation/ticket number, they are not automated scripts but a set of standard templates.

The issue with some of those services specifically was that the tier 1 CS reps were under intense pressure from their supervisors to clear tickets as fast as possible, which often resulted in only a cursory scan of the most rece nt communication and not reading back through early responses to see what had already been covered..

It's exactly this sort of thing that creates the impression that the whole system is either entirely automated scripts or (now they exist) AI chat bots. I'm not sure there's an easy fix as long as CFOs continue to view CS as purely a cost centre.

ZOS_Kevin · July 19

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for escalating this. We’ve had a chat with customer service to revert the change to the guild name. We are also investigating why this change happened to begin with.

We just wanted to highlight that we believe the change error occurred because of an incorrect change from a customer service agent. We do want to reiterate that AI was not used as a part of this process and was facilitated by customer service staff. We are looking to figure out exactly where the error occurred so that we can refine the process to avoid the issue in the future.

Thanks for your patience as we continue to investigate.

Malyore · July 19

Thank you Kevin

Vraedlich · July 20

Have these guilds used chat or discord to attempt to mass report players for homophobia or anything? Some kind of homophobic or revenge attack is literally the only way the guild being LGBTQ could have anything to do with this.
Or.... some in-group drama.

Because Pacrooti's Hirelings is definitely a violation, and the Catzputin name contains the word Putin which runs the risk of being mistaken for controversially political/also potentially violating terms.

Let's not jump to wild conclusions of "bigots" being responsible for your name change when you have presumably read the terms and conditions and ought to be aware of the violation. They are strict with names, always have been.

Sometimes it's a couple of days, sometimes it's ten years but player and guild names get changed all the time.

It is ridiculous to ask for protection against your own violation of terms.

thejadefalcon · July 20

Vraedlich wrote: »

Because Pacrooti's Hirelings is definitely a violation,

Weird, since you'd think they'd lose their appeal...

Vraedlich wrote: »

Catzputin

Has nothing to do with this guild.

Syldras · July 20

There's another thread about someone having to rename several characters after 3 years that came up this evening:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8347234/#Comment_8347234
And I think I saw a few more over the last few days.

DenverRalphy · July 20

Vraedlich wrote: »

Have these guilds used chat or discord to attempt to mass report players for homophobia or anything? Some kind of homophobic or revenge attack is literally the only way the guild being LGBTQ could have anything to do with this.
Or.... some in-group drama.

Because Pacrooti's Hirelings is definitely a violation, and the Catzputin name contains the word Putin which runs the risk of being mistaken for controversially political/also potentially violating terms.

Let's not jump to wild conclusions of "bigots" being responsible for your name change when you have presumably read the terms and conditions and ought to be aware of the violation. They are strict with names, always have been.

Sometimes it's a couple of days, sometimes it's ten years but player and guild names get changed all the time.

It is ridiculous to ask for protection against your own violation of terms.

Scroll up two comments from yours.

LINCARD1000 · July 20

As a senior officer in a PC-NA guild that had also its name force-changed a few years back (but were able to recover it eventually after lots of mucking around with CS) - you have my sympathies, OP.

Glad senior ZOS staff were able to weigh in positively, but with something this significant, I hope it's high-lighted to management there that there needs to be more than just a cursory "react now, cover our [posteriors] later" type reaction from CS staff.

spartaxoxo · July 20

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Vraedlich wrote: »

Because Pacrooti's Hirelings is definitely a violation,

Weird, since you'd think they'd lose their appeal...

Vraedlich wrote: »

Catzputin

Has nothing to do with this guild.

Amazing the number of posts that refused to read all the details before proclaiming guilt. They were explicitly told it was not a violation. The other name had nothing to do with them. They believe they were targeted because of the timing of the adverts and reports.

Anyway, glad this got sorted out op

Monte_Cristo · July 20

Vraedlich wrote: »

and the Catzputin name contains the word Putin which runs the risk of being mistaken for controversially political/also potentially violating terms.

.

Pretty sure Catzputin is a cat pun on Rasputin.

Gegensmith · July 20

Vraedlich wrote: »

Have these guilds used chat or discord to attempt to mass report players for homophobia or anything? Some kind of homophobic or revenge attack is literally the only way the guild being LGBTQ could have anything to do with this.
Or.... some in-group drama.

Because Pacrooti's Hirelings is definitely a violation, and the Catzputin name contains the word Putin which runs the risk of being mistaken for controversially political/also potentially violating terms.

Let's not jump to wild conclusions of "bigots" being responsible for your name change when you have presumably read the terms and conditions and ought to be aware of the violation. They are strict with names, always have been.

Sometimes it's a couple of days, sometimes it's ten years but player and guild names get changed all the time.

It is ridiculous to ask for protection against your own violation of terms.

Astonishing that you feel the need to leap on this and demonstrate so clearly that you've failed to read the original posting and to grasp the fact that the point was that it had already been confirmed not to be a violation of ToS. As is self-evident to anyone with eyes.

"literally the only way" -- and to demonstrate how enervated an imagination you have. Really, that's the only way you can imagine? Huh.

There was nothing "wild" about it. It was a reasoned conclusion based on evidence laid out in some detail. Perhaps too much for you to grasp, sure, but there it is.

Perhaps you'd like to take a quick glance through the Guild Finder and play a little game for us. That should keep you occupied. See how many other long-standing guilds include the name of an ESO character within their overall name. Go on, knock yourself out.

Reasonchill · July 20

@Gegensmith hi, just wanted to say that I share in your frustration with some participants in this thread and maybe partially offset it with this message. You have shown 15/10 levels of adulthood throughout this very painful - and in many places entirely useless - thread (not that I am a judge to "rate" someone's adulthood levels, of course xD). Objective information, evidence, facts separated from assumptions at every step, all assumptions justified by providing evidence, context, and reasoning, being cautious with what you think at every step and not jumping to conclusions - all in an extremely calm and collected way (well, desensitized). Too bad you have to overdo it to 15/10 levels and simply 10/10 isn't enough.

I really hope that ZOS learns and teaches their employees how to resolve these matters quickly and really efficiently, because fake reports / mass reports for whatever reason, as well as all other kinds of, say, miscommunications is an intense worry a lot of us have (I do agree that your guilds being openly LGBT+ welcoming makes these "bad things" happening a lot more likely. Stuff like that should be obvious, of course, I am saying it just in case.). It is objectively a really difficult task requiring intense competence and not tolerating any naivete. I hope that Zenimax has enough employees, and those employees have enough time and skill to be dealing with such pressing matters thoroughly.

Thank you for opening this thread, I'd say it has brought a lot of clarity and will be really useful for ESO in the future and is really useful for ESO already.
(this one is definitely an understatement, but we'll describe it when we see it, aye?)

edit: a minor typo