[Suggestion] Survey Stack Multiplier Option for Crafters

Heren · July 17

Honestly how can people suggest that in order to avoid some ( supposed ) bad consequences for the game, you have to make some activities in the game tedious and terrible ? Maybe look at the causes, and try to solve them, rather than making life miserable for players. I'm glad though they are the one being players and not developpers, I just can't imagine the kind of game they would make...

darkriketz · July 17

Heren wrote: »

Honestly how can people suggest that in order to avoid some ( supposed ) bad consequences for the game, you have to make some activities in the game tedious and terrible ? Maybe look at the causes, and try to solve them, rather than making life miserable for players. I'm glad though they are the one being players and not developpers, I just can't imagine the kind of game they would make...

The cause of this problem is some players being so greedy that they complete the daily writs with up to 20 characters on a single account, at least.
I don't see why developpers should solve a problem that was caused by players behaviour while the game is perfectly functional. I know there are recurring loading problems, but writs and survey maps work. They don't need any improvement or repair.

SilverBride · July 17

darkriketz wrote: »

The cause of this problem is some players being so greedy that they complete the daily writs with up to 20 characters on a single account, at least.

How is it greedy to make gold in a game? Gold is needed for a lot of things and it is not greedy to do activities that earn it. If it wasn't for doing writs and selling mats I couldn't afford to do housing which is something I find relaxing and fun.

darkriketz wrote: »

I don't see why developpers should solve a problem that was caused by players behaviour while the game is perfectly functional. I know there are recurring loading problems, but writs and survey maps work. They don't need any improvement or repair.

Players didn't create any problem. It is not bad behavior to want to pick up a survey while standing right on top of it. I find it illogical to have to leave the survey spot, run away, then come back to pick up something that we were just right on top of.

lillybit · July 17

darkriketz wrote: »

Heren wrote: »

Honestly how can people suggest that in order to avoid some ( supposed ) bad consequences for the game, you have to make some activities in the game tedious and terrible ? Maybe look at the causes, and try to solve them, rather than making life miserable for players. I'm glad though they are the one being players and not developpers, I just can't imagine the kind of game they would make...

The cause of this problem is some players being so greedy that they complete the daily writs with up to 20 characters on a single account, at least.
I don't see why developpers should solve a problem that was caused by players behaviour while the game is perfectly functional. I know there are recurring loading problems, but writs and survey maps work. They don't need any improvement or repair.

You could apply this to just about everything that's been introduced in the game. Let's get rid of transmutes - the dungeons/trials/arenas work fine, it's just lazy to not want to run them for the gear you want when they don’t actually need improvement or repair. Let's get rid of the stickerbook too, players cause the problem of needing gear by making builds so why should it be made easier? There's no need for housing; people should have to travel around the map to craft sets/master writs as was intended. It's just greedy to want to do master writs quicker anyway. If its not broke, don’t fix it right?

Gathering a few surveys at once, after you've already probably switched characters to collect your stored surveys, found the site and travelled there doesn't remove the time sink, just impoves it a little.

You could say that it's more greedy to be opposed to an idea that would be a significant qol change for a lot of people, just because of a hypothetically impact on trade and your own profits.

Btw, I almost never sell. I started doing writs for master writs to make my guild house and carried on because I might as well now they're levelled. I spend more on things like motifs for alts than I make (adding to the game economy). There's lots of reasons people do writs. It's the people doing a load of writs and making a ton of gold that also spend that gold on the expensive things, also adding to the game economy. If trade is so important to you, maybe don't call your customers greedy

DenverRalphy · July 17

SilverBride wrote: »

darkriketz wrote: »

The cause of this problem is some players being so greedy that they complete the daily writs with up to 20 characters on a single account, at least.

How is it greedy to make gold in a game? Gold is needed for a lot of things and it is not greedy to do activities that earn it. If it wasn't for doing writs and selling mats I couldn't afford to do housing which is something I find relaxing and fun.

darkriketz wrote: »

I don't see why developpers should solve a problem that was caused by players behaviour while the game is perfectly functional. I know there are recurring loading problems, but writs and survey maps work. They don't need any improvement or repair.

Players didn't create any problem. It is not bad behavior to want to pick up a survey while standing right on top of it. I find it illogical to have to leave the survey spot, run away, then come back to pick up something that we were just right on top of.

It's a player made problem in the sense that it's the player that chose to let those surveys stack instead of completing them as they get them. Which you would know because you've questioned players' choices to do so many times in the past in many similar threads to this one.

Heck, I'm one of those players that like to let my surveys stack so that I can take them out in batches of 10+ per stack. That way I can knock out 100 surveys in 7 - 10 unique locations instead of bouncing across 37 different zones to complete the same amount. But that's my choice. I chose to do that. And I don't expect the game to be changed to accommodate and reward my behavior.

SilverBride · July 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

It's a player made problem in the sense that it's the player that chose to let those surveys stack instead of completing them as they get them. Which you would know because you've questioned players' choices to do so many times in the past in many similar threads to this one.

Letting surveys, or any items, stack up to the hundreds, or even thousands, is the player's doing. And yes, I think doing them before they get to that point is preferable.

But that doesn't make it any less illogical for any player, whether they have a stack of 2 or 20, to have to leave the survey spot, run away, then come back to pick up something they were just right on top of.

Desiato · July 17

Heren wrote: »

Honestly how can people suggest that in order to avoid some ( supposed ) bad consequences for the game, you have to make some activities in the game tedious and terrible ? Maybe look at the causes, and try to solve them, rather than making life miserable for players. I'm glad though they are the one being players and not developpers, I just can't imagine the kind of game they would make...

If you think it's tedious and terrible, then don't do it!

ZOS dropped the ball here. They shouldn't have allowed writ automation in the first place. The rewards were balanced against completing them manually.

I understand that some people on console did grind them prior to addon availability, but I have to think it was only a small minority who did them on all of their characters! Wow, would that ever be tedious. I can't imagine why a player who would do such a thing would be so upset by having to collect surveys.

This has not only had an adverse effect for harvesters, but also actual crafting enthusiasts who used to profit by selling things from writ vouchers. Master writs are almost worthless as a result of writ grinding becoming a mainstream activity for ESO enthusiasts because it's so easy and profitable. Prior to writ automation, master writs were quite valuable.

The thing about it is even if surveys didn't drop, automated writs would still be incredibly profitable for the time spent doing them.

Unfortunately, there is no turning back because mainstream eso enthusiasts are used to having this daily reward, despite the drawbacks and the crafter and harvesting enthusiasts who have essentially had an activity designed for them co-opted.

So of course ZOS won't stop writ automation, but they shouldn't sabotage harvesting, trading and meaningful upgrades
further by trivializing survey collection as writ completion has been.

Keep in mind, harvesting, trading and the upgrade system are all FEATURES in a game like this. They are not mere time sinks. They are enjoyable activities for many people who play RPGs and especially one like ESO.

It is actually a shame that green, blue and purple upgrades are basically meaningless already and that seeing a harvesting node isn't something that's worth stopping for to most players. That is lost gameplay depth. These things should not be diminished further.

I understand not everyone likes those things. That's par for the course in a game like this. It does not have a narrow audience. It has a broad audience, and a broad range of activities. I doubt there is anyone who enjoys absolutely everything in ESO, or at least has the time to enjoy it all.

If you don't like collecting surveys, then don't! No one says you have to. But please don't advocate ruining parts of the game others enjoy for your convenience.

SilverBride · July 17

Desiato wrote: »

If you don't like collecting surveys, then don't! No one says you have to. But please don't advocate ruining parts of the game others enjoy for your convenience.

I haven't met anyone that enjoys running back and forth to the same spot over and over to pick up a survey they were just at.

As far as wanting a convenience, that is considered quality of life. The entire point of add-ons is to make things more convenient. There is nothing wrong with wanting things that make playing a game less tedious and more enjoyable.

LalMirchi · July 17

I sequester all my surveys in my four 60-item storage chests sorted by zone name (A-C, D-G, H-R & S-Z). I count my stored surveys as part of my wealth.

I will often do an entire zones worth of surveys in a session when my jewelry surveys reach my trigger point (10 or 20). This way I get to vacuum up an entire zone and stock up on all types of materials. While harvesting I collect all other nodes and kill nearby enemies with the occasional drop of a lead or other valuable loot.

However the locations for some surveys are rather diabolical. I destroy these surveys without a qualm as I have many more stored.

I've tried many strategies to reset nodes but running round a corner in mountainous areas is my favorite as it's very quick.

While I do like this idea the impact on downstream economy would be substantial. This would severely hurt harvesters sales as Desiato has pointed out.

Yusuf · July 17

I'm always on the side of convenience. To those opposing this: Do you WANT the game to be boring?

Desiato · July 17

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

If you don't like collecting surveys, then don't! No one says you have to. But please don't advocate ruining parts of the game others enjoy for your convenience.

I haven't met anyone that enjoys running back and forth to the same spot over and over to pick up a survey they were just at.

Again, if you don't like doing it, don't. No one is forcing you. Just because one gets a lead or a treasure map doesn't mean they have to complete them! The same is true of surveys.

Plus you don't have to run away. You can just port to a house you don't own and exit it. I preview a house that I don't own in the zone. If that's not an option for you, you can also travel to a friend's house located anywhere and exit.

It's ironic because prior to writ automation, getting a survey was a very nice reward and there was absolutely no frustration about having to complete them. Part of the reason was that raw mats were worth a lot more pre-writ automation. In those days I used to harvest the old fashioned way, but don't bother because of the impact of automation.

This may be QOL for you, but it's EOL to the activity for another kind of player. You don't play in a bubble. Your actions affect others in this case.

Deserrick · July 17

SilverBride wrote: »

I would love a way to make gathering surveys more efficient and really like this idea.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how this would work with Alchemy since it doesn't spawn the same plants every time.

Replace alchemy survey nodes with ‎Herbalist's Satchels?

SilverBride · July 17

Desiato wrote: »

Again, if you don't like doing it, don't. No one is forcing you.

This is not a matter of liking or not liking. It's a matter of making a tedious task less of a burden.

Desiato wrote: »

This may be QOL for you, but it's EOL to the activity for another kind of player. You don't play in a bubble. Your actions affect others in this case.

The opposite is also true.

Allowing players to gather all the surveys in a single location without running back and forth does not effect anyone else negatively. If a player does not want to gather multiple surveys at the same time they can just bring one survey with them rather than a stack.

This feature could also have a toggle similar to auto loot so players can choose just for themselves.

SilverBride · July 17

Deserrick wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I would love a way to make gathering surveys more efficient and really like this idea.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how this would work with Alchemy since it doesn't spawn the same plants every time.

Replace alchemy survey nodes with ‎Herbalist's Satchels?

Awesome idea!

lillybit · July 17

Here's the thing. We hate doing surveys but we still do them. Something that makes it easier isn't creating surveys out of thin air, we've already earned them. Seems like you just don't want it easy so people don't actually collect what they've earned.

Maybe the solution is multi harvest combined with reduced drop rates for surveys. But I'm guessing the people arguing against it would be impacted by that too so that won't suit them either. They want the surveys as long as they're the only ones doing them!

Arunei · July 17

@darkriketz
You do realize that Master Writs drop from daily crafting boxes, right? As well as various materials, as well as being a source of gold and exp, right? Calling people greedy for doing content for rewards is an awful argument and pretty rude. By that logic someone running ANY content numerous times to keep getting the rewards is greedy. Telling people not to do content that gets them rewards because one aspect of it is annoying is, frankly, also an awful argument.

Also, 100k a day can go VERY quickly depending on what you're doing. Some mats are several thousand gold each, and if you're doing Housing, that 100k might only be enough to make you ten or eleven pieces of furniture. That 100k might be spent buying potions. It might be spent on Crown Crates. It might be put towards any number of things that make it a paltry amount of gold.

cyclonus11 · July 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think this suggestion is different because the OP isn't asking to have the process of gathering surveys to be done by an assistant, or our Companions or anyone other than the player as others have suggested.

All they are asking is that all the surveys for the same exact spot be gathered by the stack rather than having to keep running out of the area and running back to the same exact spot over and over to do them one at a time.

I think it's the most reasonable suggestion for surveys I've seen yet.

It's still just another "let's cut out the work requirements" idea.

The "work requirements" are there for technical reasons, not as an intentional time sink. The request is reasonable IMHO.

kargen27 · July 17

Mayrael wrote: »

To those opposing this idea:

- Isn’t curating loot the same kind of time-saver, since you don’t have to farm the same boss a million times to get the desired drop?
- Isn’t the ability to change traits also a time-saver?
- Aren’t Experience Scrolls a time-saver, as they reduce the time needed to level up?

It seems to me (though I can’t be certain... but nevertheless I’m almost sure someone who religiously collects 1000 surveys and loves running back and forth to reset every node will show up and will oppose the idea) that most negative opinions come from people who aren’t affected by the issue but just don’t want others to have an easier time.

yes and I was opposed to those ideas also. I think they removed some of the incentive to repeat content and helped create the lack of players doing that content today. Those changes were not good overall for the game.

DenverRalphy · July 17

cyclonus11 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think this suggestion is different because the OP isn't asking to have the process of gathering surveys to be done by an assistant, or our Companions or anyone other than the player as others have suggested.

All they are asking is that all the surveys for the same exact spot be gathered by the stack rather than having to keep running out of the area and running back to the same exact spot over and over to do them one at a time.

I think it's the most reasonable suggestion for surveys I've seen yet.

It's still just another "let's cut out the work requirements" idea.

The "work requirements" are there for technical reasons, not as an intentional time sink. The request is reasonable IMHO.

Says who? If the time sink wasn't intentional, the writ would just drop a container with a randomized amount of the appropriate resources directly into the players inventory, instead of sending the player out to collect them.

TagCdog · July 17

I give this idea my +1 as well, but as a plausible alternative that will not flood accounts with resources all at once (which I wouldn't mind), they could add skill point based hirelings that do a small amount of surveys for you per day. The more skill points you invest, the more surveys they collect and mail back to you.

I also think master writs, surveys, and treasure maps should have their own craft bag instead of stacking. This will allow any adventuring alt to utilize the writ, survey, or map instead of limiting it to a planned, have it specifically in your inventory action.

Heren · July 17

Desiato wrote: »

But please don't advocate ruining parts of the game others enjoy for your convenience.

While you advocate keeping some part of the game in a bad stat for your convenience, hum ?

Everyone see things as they interest them - me included most likely, I won't deny that. And I won't deny that regarding daily writs, ESO is in a weird state. But I'd rather advocate finding another way than promoting or defending a tedious gating.

Really, would you enjoy if a game company was saying 'Here, that activity in our game is profitable, but we don't want it to be too profitable, so we make it a time consuming, boring and tedious activity so people won't get tempted too much by doing it.' Because in the end, that's what you're defending, that if an activity is 'too' profitable, it's good to make it appalling for players.

I don't know, are you in the making of developing some Purgatory game ?

TooManyToons · July 18

Thanks again to everyone who's jumped in — I’m really appreciating the discussion and all the perspectives, even when we don’t all agree.

Just wanted to share a bit more context from my end:

This idea isn’t about making gold or farming surveys faster. I don’t sell my crafting mats — I keep everything I gather for my own use. I’ve got 20 characters, all with the basic 8 traits done, and most with Nirnhoned researched too. I don’t buy mats and I don’t buy writs. Every one of my 81 attunable Grandmaster stations was earned by running writs and crafting through gameplay. No crown store shortcuts, no flipping guild traders. Just persistence.

I’m also someone who genuinely enjoys gathering. I’m that player who will veer off the road mid-quest to grab a node and probably needs a sign on my mount that says “Will dismount for mats.” 😄

But even I get tired of the “reset run” when I’ve got a stack of 20+ identical surveys. We all know that exact distance we have to run to make the nodes respawn — and we all end up doing the same loop over and over. That’s not crafting gameplay, that’s just busywork.

On the Alchemy concern — fair point that the plant placement varies. My guess is that’s to make it harder for bots, but the number of nodes per survey seems consistent, just randomly scattered. So I think it could still work with the multiplier logic — just harvest what’s there and repeat that logic based on stack size.

For me, this isn’t about “more loot faster,” it’s about cutting down on the kind of repetition that adds nothing to the experience. A smoother system wouldn’t devalue surveys — it would just make us more likely to use them instead of letting them pile up in storage.

Appreciate all the feedback — even the pushback. It’s been a solid conversation.

– Tedd (TooManyToons)

sleepy_worm · July 18

I actually enjoy doing surveys. We exist! If I need to sell materials, I benefit from other people not enjoying this activity. That said, I wouldn't be terribly put off if they did make it faster. This game has a lot of other meditative activities I could pick up in lieu of surveys.

sshogrin · July 18

I have suggested this, along with a survey assistant (from the Crown Store), and even using the companions we have worked hard for that usually don't get pulled out for game play anyway. Even if we had a "Reset Survey" key bind when at a Survey Map location, that would be better QoL. The devs have talked about QoL now for a couple years, having the option to harvest all or have a reset that we didn't have to run away would be much better.

As far as the "ESO economy"...the devs themselves on a live stream talked about how they actually did something to "alter" the economy of NA because prices were getting way out of hand. When you compare prices from NA to EU or console, NA is incredibly over priced. They tried to make the economies "match", or at least get into the realm of being closer to one another. I saw somebody say something about crafters being greedy, but then said it would "crash the economy". That really doesn't make sense that they're greedy if it's going to bring down the price of materials, and in fact it sounds more like the people opposed are the people that are greedy because they want to make as much gold as possible off the mats they list.

I've played this game since early Beta (I'm a Beta 25 player), before some of the addons, yes crafting was time consuming, but we've had crafting addons for God knows how long. You would still have to take the time to go to the Survey location and harvest, you just wouldn't have to reset the survey in some tedious way, and it would bring some QoL improvements to the game.

There are people that all they do is craft, do surveys, and run around harvesting materials. That's it, they don't do anything else in game. Some sell mats, some don't. The reality is saving some time to harvest mats isn't going to "crash the economy" like some people think. While it might bring prices down, it's not going to kill the economy. I enjoy crafting, but I also enjoy doing other activities. I'd like to be able to do more than spend one day a week of gaming doing surveys...yes, I realize I don't have to do them, but it's also a way to stay self sufficient. I don't sell mats, I keep them because ZOS has decided to make build changes every time they release a new dungeon, so there's always grinding new gear and making new sets for my toons.

The people that want to do surveys the "old way" still could, the people that want to maximize their game time could do surveys AND do other game content. Nobody would actually lose if gathering all or a reset survey button were implemented. The game might actually just benefit since people would have more time to do other activities, whether it's dungeons, trials, ToT, housing, etc. A lot of the PvP players are still going to buy their mats from the traders since most of the PvPers I know don't do crafting or harvesting.

Hotdog_23 · July 18

Just send us an extra mail message with the mats instead of the survey. All problems solved. No surveys to bank or back and forth to collect. The only issue is for those that are not ESO+ members. I would say that most folks that do lots of crafting daily writs and surveys are ESO Plus people already, so in truth this probably would not affect very many people at all.

Stay safe

darkriketz · July 18

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just send us an extra mail message with the mats instead of the survey. All problems solved. No surveys to bank or back and forth to collect. The only issue is for those that are not ESO+ members. I would say that most folks that do lots of crafting daily writs and surveys are ESO Plus people already, so in truth this probably would not affect very many people at all.

Stay safe

It wouldn't be interesting to get the survey materials by mail, because thanks to CP skills you can double the yield, and in some provinces (Craglorn, Wrothgar, Morrowind...) you can even get special, local style stones/style powders/nirncrux.
Something a generic mail wouldn't be able to deal with.

Mayrael · July 18

lillybit wrote: »

Here's the thing. We hate doing surveys but we still do them. Something that makes it easier isn't creating surveys out of thin air, we've already earned them. Seems like you just don't want it easy so people don't actually collect what they've earned.

Maybe the solution is multi harvest combined with reduced drop rates for surveys. But I'm guessing the people arguing against it would be impacted by that too so that won't suit them either. They want the surveys as long as they're the only ones doing them!

This is what I was talking about, this change would have minimal impact on economy since surveys are collected no matter how boring it is anyway.

Another thing is that we can make surveys even harder to get/collect but it will affect the ones with tons of them less since we already have piles of mats and we will mange it anyway, but what about the rest? Did you like dreugh wax selling for 20k, would you like it for 30k? Lesser the supply higher the price.

And finally, I'd be totally happy if surveys would just respawn after completing one, without need of riding back and forth. This would be huge QoL to and you can't argue that riding back and forth is intended and designed game mechanic to reset stuff - that's just something players come up with and needs to be addressed.

twisttop138 · July 18

Wait hold on just one second. Are you telling me that I can take surveys from one character and put them in a bank and get them on my crafter? So that all surveys can be done on one toon? I've been playing since console launch (albeit with a 4 year break I just returned from) and had no idea. Well color me surprised. Today I learned.

mdjessup4906 · July 18

whitecrow wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Just like if we go to the grocery store to buy 5 carrots. We wouldn't go to the produce department and pick up 1 carrot, leave the produce department, then come back and pick up a second carrot, over and over until we get all 5. We would get them all at once.

Then think of the survey as a shopping list that you are meant to do as soon as you can. You wouldn't let multiple shopping lists pile up.

*cries in ADHD*

OK fine, say all these insane people with unlimited bank space hack (how??? I want too!) suddenly flood the market with their giant backlog of mats.

Assuming they arent like me and several people above, and just keep them for ourselves, Sure prices will drop. For about a month or 2. Then they'll get bought out and because how you actually get surveys and total frequency of mats hasnt changed, the prices will stabilize. Maybe a bit lower but what's that in the face of less tedium and more free time to do actual game stuff like questing and --wearing your thumbs out on a trial dummy-- i mean trials?

Yall treating game economy like rl. I worry about money enough irl im not doing it in a game.

Selling master writs is better anyway. Especially during xp events.

wolfie1.0. · July 18

Its a great idea...

It likely wont happen.

If it does happen I see zos lowering the drop rate of surveys as a balancing effort.

Zos wants you to grind.