is pvp queing system broken ?

Lucasalex92 · July 16

So recently i have been only qued with people who are much lower cp then me ( i am 1086 CP) and people i am grouped up in battlegrounds are 90-500 CP only versus always groups of 2000+ CP players...

how is this possible and why i am never mixed in groups like that ? how is that fair matching Zeni ?

L_Nici · July 16

The BG queue was always broken and the "ELO" system too. There is just way to few players for it to create a fair, balanced BG.

Lucasalex92 · July 17

ehh so what can we do about ? they wont fix it for sure i guess

Sluggy · July 17

CP doesn't matter in BGs. It is disabled. If you are worried about experience level: don't. I've found it has next to no bearing on how well someone performs in PvP. If they want to be good at it they learn fast. If not, they never will be good at it no matter how long they've been playing the game in general.

dcrush · July 17

As someone who enjoys pvp in ESO, BGs right now are the absolute worst of the worst experience. It’s luck of the draw if your team is good or is going to get farmed. And if you quit because you’re tired of the unequal matchups… you get a THIRTY MINUTE waiting penalty. It’s like ZOS wants to remove BGs entirely and just makes it as un-fun as possible to play so that they can remove it at some point and say nobody was playing it.

Lucasalex92 · July 17

dcrush wrote: »

As someone who enjoys pvp in ESO, BGs right now are the absolute worst of the worst experience. It’s luck of the draw if your team is good or is going to get farmed. And if you quit because you’re tired of the unequal matchups… you get a THIRTY MINUTE waiting penalty. It’s like ZOS wants to remove BGs entirely and just makes it as un-fun as possible to play so that they can remove it at some point and say nobody was playing it.

right ? so its not only me thinking this way ?

i wish there was equal matching or something like 0 cp to 100, 101 to 200 etc etc

Sluggy · July 18

Lucasalex92 wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

As someone who enjoys pvp in ESO, BGs right now are the absolute worst of the worst experience. It’s luck of the draw if your team is good or is going to get farmed. And if you quit because you’re tired of the unequal matchups… you get a THIRTY MINUTE waiting penalty. It’s like ZOS wants to remove BGs entirely and just makes it as un-fun as possible to play so that they can remove it at some point and say nobody was playing it.

right ? so its not only me thinking this way ?

i wish there was equal matching or something like 0 cp to 100, 101 to 200 etc etc

It wouldn't fix anything. You'd still almost always end up with one team absolutely crushing the other. If you get even three or four experienced players (yes, you do find them on low CP alt accounts) on the same team and the other doesn't have that to match then it's already over.

As was mentioned above by L_Nici, there *is* a matchmaking system but just simply aren't enough players to go around to make it work. You need 5-digit populations to make it work well and there's probably barely a couple thousand even at the busiest hours spread among all forms of PvP in the entire game. During off-hours, it probably doesn't even reach a hundred, I'd be willing to bet.

Dock01 · July 18

dcrush wrote: »

As someone who enjoys pvp in ESO, BGs right now are the absolute worst of the worst experience. It’s luck of the draw if your team is good or is going to get farmed. And if you quit because you’re tired of the unequal matchups… you get a THIRTY MINUTE waiting penalty. It’s like ZOS wants to remove BGs entirely and just makes it as un-fun as possible to play so that they can remove it at some point and say nobody was playing it.

there it is , the answer to all the questions. yep this is true , and i could only play at a certain time (solo) or ill have to wait 10 to 15 minutes each, 30 for group. Also, i don't understand why some people are trying to gaslight others into thinking that this is healthy and normal, having to wait for a match this long. It's not, Never been, anyone who played other real PvP games for decades knows lol hope zos replace this flawed design with something else but i highly doubt it with the recent lay offs, oh well--- if they decide to remove it, i wouldn't be surprised or upset

Desiato · July 18

I know I'm repeating myself, but I'll say again that for ESO PVP to successful, it has to be more accessible to PVP enthusiasts who don't currently play ESO because they are completely unmotivated to play the PVE side of ESO.

Frankly, ESO is far too easy for most gamers who have a competitive mindset which pretty much all PVP gaming enthusiasts do -- although not necessarily those who PVP in ESO!

The reason I write this so often is because I think ESO PVP has INCREDIBLE untapped potential. Trying to make it more accessible to the ultra-casual PVE audience that plays ESO has basically ruined it IMO, because ESO PVP at its best was high APM, low TTK and thrilling. I remember it not only being popular among DOAC/Warhammer fans, but also LoL players loved the fast, high apm side of it.

No PVP enthusiast is going to look at heavy attack build gameplay and get hyped up about it.

Personally, I think it's negligent at a business level that it hasn't been better developed because it's a wasted opportunity.

My unrealistic dream for ESO is a parallel stand alone F2P PVP game that is tied to ESO, but can be played both independently or as part of the greater game, greatly increasing the PVP audience.

Both games would have a unified account system and would share ESO+, the crown store, cosmetics, mounts, housing, etc..

This isn't such a radical idea. I can't find the original interviews anymore because many of the sites that hosted them are gone or google doesn't index them anymore, but Cyrodiil was originally designed so players, if they wanted to, could progress almost entirely in Cyrodiil after hitting level 10. It wasn't entirely practical, but some players did it. That's why Cyrodiil has PVE quests, shards, crafting stations, etc...

The reason for this is ZOS was formed by key players from Mythic Entertainment who were famous for their open world PVP games such as DAOC and Warhammer Online, so their communities had a keen interest in Cyrodiil, but not so much the rest of ESO. They represented a significant audience and they are the ones who created the foundational Cyrodilic culture that persisted for years, but is basically dead now. Those players are mostly long gone now because, let's face it, Cyrodiil was a technical disaster that eventually also became a gameplay disaster.

Though the history I am writing about applies to Cyrodiil, for Battlegrounds to be successful, it needs a MUCH larger audience for MMR to work. Like 1000x larger.

Anyway, I know it won't happen, but the point remains, for ESO PVP to ever come close to reaching its potential, it needs to be accessible to true PVP gaming enthusiasts.

Lucasalex92 · July 19

Desiato wrote: »

I know I'm repeating myself, but I'll say again that for ESO PVP to successful, it has to be more accessible to PVP enthusiasts who don't currently play ESO because they are completely unmotivated to play the PVE side of ESO.

Frankly, ESO is far too easy for most gamers who have a competitive mindset which pretty much all PVP gaming enthusiasts do -- although not necessarily those who PVP in ESO!

The reason I write this so often is because I think ESO PVP has INCREDIBLE untapped potential. Trying to make it more accessible to the ultra-casual PVE audience that plays ESO has basically ruined it IMO, because ESO PVP at its best was high APM, low TTK and thrilling. I remember it not only being popular among DOAC/Warhammer fans, but also LoL players loved the fast, high apm side of it.

No PVP enthusiast is going to look at heavy attack build gameplay and get hyped up about it.

Personally, I think it's negligent at a business level that it hasn't been better developed because it's a wasted opportunity.

My unrealistic dream for ESO is a parallel stand alone F2P PVP game that is tied to ESO, but can be played both independently or as part of the greater game, greatly increasing the PVP audience.

Both games would have a unified account system and would share ESO+, the crown store, cosmetics, mounts, housing, etc..

This isn't such a radical idea. I can't find the original interviews anymore because many of the sites that hosted them are gone or google doesn't index them anymore, but Cyrodiil was originally designed so players, if they wanted to, could progress almost entirely in Cyrodiil after hitting level 10. It wasn't entirely practical, but some players did it. That's why Cyrodiil has PVE quests, shards, crafting stations, etc...

The reason for this is ZOS was formed by key players from Mythic Entertainment who were famous for their open world PVP games such as DAOC and Warhammer Online, so their communities had a keen interest in Cyrodiil, but not so much the rest of ESO. They represented a significant audience and they are the ones who created the foundational Cyrodilic culture that persisted for years, but is basically dead now. Those players are mostly long gone now because, let's face it, Cyrodiil was a technical disaster that eventually also became a gameplay disaster.

Though the history I am writing about applies to Cyrodiil, for Battlegrounds to be successful, it needs a MUCH larger audience for MMR to work. Like 1000x larger.

Anyway, I know it won't happen, but the point remains, for ESO PVP to ever come close to reaching its potential, it needs to be accessible to true PVP gaming enthusiasts.

to be honest pvp lost touch abit and its so either sweat pants or nothing for you - its bad

Desiato · July 19

And sometimes who you refer to as the sweat pants don't even want to fight each other, they'll be on different sides of the bg map trying to 1vx. But that's how backwater pvp games tend to be.

Thumbless_Bot · July 19

Desiato wrote: »

The reason I write this so often is because I think ESO PVP has INCREDIBLE untapped potential. Trying to make it more accessible to the ultra-casual PVE audience that plays ESO has basically ruined it IMO, because ESO PVP at its best was high APM, low TTK and thrilling.

This is spot on. They have done everything they can to remove skill from battlegrounds and cyro. I think they want everyone to sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya while they share home decorating ideas as pvp.

Broken mechanics do not get fixed. They only produce more broken mechanics to address existing ones which is a terrible philosophy. Fix the problem, dont create new ones.

Fix the things we love, like 3 team bgs and actual cyro. Don't remove them and replace them with shoddy, half-baked game modes that we didn't ask for and dont want to try and appeal to new players without losing existing ones. It only makes your paying customer unhappy. The vast majority of new players will only stick around long enough to fill a sticker book or get an achievement. Then you've lost both old and new.

Lucasalex92 · July 19

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

The reason I write this so often is because I think ESO PVP has INCREDIBLE untapped potential. Trying to make it more accessible to the ultra-casual PVE audience that plays ESO has basically ruined it IMO, because ESO PVP at its best was high APM, low TTK and thrilling.

This is spot on. They have done everything they can to remove skill from battlegrounds and cyro. I think they want everyone to sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya while they share home decorating ideas as pvp.

Broken mechanics do not get fixed. They only produce more broken mechanics to address existing ones which is a terrible philosophy. Fix the problem, dont create new ones.

Fix the things we love, like 3 team bgs and actual cyro. Don't remove them and replace them with shoddy, half-baked game modes that we didn't ask for and dont want to try and appeal to new players without losing existing ones. It only makes your paying customer unhappy. The vast majority of new players will only stick around long enough to fill a sticker book or get an achievement. Then you've lost both old and new.

to be honest since subclassing there is no way return so there is no way also for pvp ... it use to be so much fun and so many guilds playing daily pvp in cyrodil and now its sad

Stamicka · July 19

Their choice to make battlegrounds 2 teams instead of 3 was a bit out of touch in my opinion. The 2 team format would appeal to a much more competitive PvP crowd. Those types of players left ESO PvP years ago. You can probably find them on Marvel’s Rivals or a MOBA these days.

ESO on the other hand is very casual and uncompetitive. This 2 team BG format was very out of place. It’s no surprise that it’s unpopular and dead. There’s like 5 people on the planet who still sweat ESO PvP, I’m not sure who they were making 2 team BGs for.

Sluggy · July 20

@Desiato I agree overall with most of that. But I think ESO was put in a hard spot from the get-go. Being tied to Elder Scrolls has been it's greatest strength but also it's biggest curse. It brought in a large number of people curious to see what a new ES game would offer. But many things were simply not catered to that ES-loving crowd initially and as they've seen where most of the custom base is, they've trended in that direction.

My personal opinion is that ESO has (had? I dunno anymore lol) the best combat system out of any ES game ever. But I also think it's overall a terrible ES game. ES, to me, has always been about being a 'adventurer lifestyle simulator' whereas this game felt like an absolute, by-the-numbers, cookie cutter MMO. One would expect an ES game to have a breathing world that goes about its business regardless of what and where the player is. Instead, all of the happy souless little NPC bots stand dutifully in their designated spot until some one comes to click on them: either to death or to sell some crap they don't want.

What kept me engaged despite my initial disappointment was dungeon crawling as a team combine with a really very fun combat system. Over the years that started to become trivialized and I glided into PvP as a means of finding new and exciting adventures and ways to express myself via combat. I don't think I could ever pin point any specific changes or points in time when it felt bad to play PvP anymore but one thing became apparent to me years ago: I'm not the target customer anymore. So I've moved on. I drop in now and then to see what's up but I think pvpers need to have a realistic view at this point. It's not a game for them.

Desiato · July 20

Sluggy wrote: »

@Desiato I agree overall with most of that. But I think ESO was put in a hard spot from the get-go. Being tied to Elder Scrolls has been it's greatest strength but also it's biggest curse. It brought in a large number of people curious to see what a new ES game would offer. But many things were simply not catered to that ES-loving crowd initially and as they've seen where most of the custom base is, they've trended in that direction.

That's because TES wasn't a household name when ESO started development. Morrowind and Oblivion sold well, but it wasn't really a mainstream series then. It was popular among gaming enthusiasts, but not known to the general public like Skyrim would be.

WoW was famous and making headlines for the piles of cash it was earning.

So ESO was supposed to be an Oblivion themed WoW with action combat and DOAC/Warhammer PVP. It started development before Skyrim.

I mean, even if they had tried to make Skyrim Online, it would have ended up like FO76, so I think ESO actually worked out for them considering they ended up earning a lot of money from it and it had a good run after a bumpy start.

Regardless, the combat system is largely intact and they could definitely pivot PVP back to more exciting gameplay. The main thing they are missing is the audience, hence my suggestion. For it to get a PVP audience, PVP gamers need to be able to download it and get into PVP action right away without hundreds of hours of boring PVE grinding.

It seems to me, the hard part is done and a more agile company could definitely do it.

moderatelyfatman · July 20

Lucasalex92 wrote: »

So recently i have been only qued with people who are much lower cp then me ( i am 1086 CP) and people i am grouped up in battlegrounds are 90-500 CP only versus always groups of 2000+ CP players...

how is this possible and why i am never mixed in groups like that ? how is that fair matching Zeni ?

Remember that MMR means nothing when there is only enough people queuing fo a single match.

Lucasalex92 · July 20

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Lucasalex92 wrote: »

So recently i have been only qued with people who are much lower cp then me ( i am 1086 CP) and people i am grouped up in battlegrounds are 90-500 CP only versus always groups of 2000+ CP players...

how is this possible and why i am never mixed in groups like that ? how is that fair matching Zeni ?

Remember that MMR means nothing when there is only enough people queuing fo a single match.

so that should break groups and group up some of those op players with low lvl players 2 weak and 2 strong for both groups not grouping it all max cp vs noobs because its obvious game over for noobs

Dock01 · July 20

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Lucasalex92 wrote: »

So recently i have been only qued with people who are much lower cp then me ( i am 1086 CP) and people i am grouped up in battlegrounds are 90-500 CP only versus always groups of 2000+ CP players...

how is this possible and why i am never mixed in groups like that ? how is that fair matching Zeni ?

Remember that MMR means nothing when there is only enough people queuing fo a single match.

exactly.

Cooperharley · July 20

A good queue and a good MMR system require an adequate amount of people regularly queueing, which likely isn't happening in ESO. I'd imagine a very small relative % of the game's current population still regularly engages in PvP due to VERY small updates if any at all over the past decade basically. It's just burnt people out

That'd be my guess

Lucasalex92 · July 21

Cooperharley wrote: »

A good queue and a good MMR system require an adequate amount of people regularly queueing, which likely isn't happening in ESO. I'd imagine a very small relative % of the game's current population still regularly engages in PvP due to VERY small updates if any at all over the past decade basically. It's just burnt people out That'd be my guess

yes but u cannot stack all sweat pants in one group with max cp and noobs to other group, thats already not fair system should split them automatically to be equally balance even if there isnt enough ppl

Desiato · July 22

One thing they could do which other match based games have done for decades is auto-balance teams mid-match if it's too lopsided.

moderatelyfatman · July 22

Desiato wrote: »

One thing they could do which other match based games have done for decades is auto-balance teams mid-match if it's too lopsided.

Can you imagine how badly this could get messed up in a game as buggy as ESO?