SnakeCrasher wrote: »

Your PvP campaign, Vengeance, is terrible. There's nothing to do there except for going in a group, but if you want to play solo, you should take the NB because you've made it the strongest and most unbalanced class. You've given it advantages that make it easier to play solo. It has its own speed buff, the ability to go into stealth, and good damage multipliers, while other classes don't have anything like that. I've been playing PvP since 2016, and I can definitely tell you that there are too many problems with PvP, and you don't want to deal with any of them. Instead, you're just running more tests. You have a lot of cheaters, players who use macros and game bugs, and they've adapted to the realities of ESO so well that they've been breaking your game for years, while all you can do is run tests. You don't have a proper anti-cheat system, and the one you do have doesn't work properly against dishonest players. To be honest, you don't even want to balance the game properly. Before the introduction of subclasses, the Sorcerer was the strongest class in PvP, and almost every second player played as a Sorcerer, but the Necromancer was the weakest class, so weak that almost no one played as a Necromancer. And so you decided to introduce subclasses, but you didn't fix the previous problems with the classes, and as a result, we now see that almost everyone still plays the same combinations: Sorcerer, Nightblade, and Warden. The other options are rarely used. So where is the diversity? There isn't any, and there never will be. You've somehow eliminated the uniqueness of the classes and made one class the strongest and the other the weakest, but with the introduction of subclasses, the situation has become even worse. I don't know what's on your mind or what your tests will lead to, but I sincerely hope that you will finally see the game's problems and start addressing them.

I agree with everything except the vengeance part I actually love that mode, it’s super fun. But yeah, way too many cheaters and seamless bug abusers exploiting while gaslighting everyone. There’s zero anti-cheat, and the server-side is a joke easily cracked. I’ve got no hope they’ll ever implement real security. ZOS is clearly struggling after all the layoffs, and the content’s stale and boring with an overpriced, trying-to-fool-you price tag. It’s not looking good. I still PvP daily, mostly in BGs now. Got everything I wanted from Cryo and IC already.

We can sit here and debate over the positives and negatives of Grayhost AND Vengeance as campaigns, but there's a core issue players need to realize. It's a problem at the core of the game that needs to be addressed and there's no simple solution for it. It's that PvE and PvP NEED to be separated. It's clear the developers have been tip-toeing around a very fine line over balancing sets, classes, passives, content in general just making sure one part of the game doesn't absolutely ruin another. Whether it be adjusting a skill so that it overperforms in a pvp scenario that might invalidate an entire meta for PVE, or regulating another so that's absolutely ruins an entirety spectrum of build archetypes. If ESO wants to continue being appealing to casuals and players interested in coming back to ESO they need to start breaking the power creep and introducing gear and mechanics that draw you into the experience. This game is in a desperate need of a make-over. Every main stream MMO has done it to continue being relevant, and with the current layoffs through Microsoft and losing some core development in the ZOS team... things need to change.
It's clear. You can't make everyone happy and that's a fact. There's always going to be one part of the community that gets left out. We're basically living through a maintenance mode at this point.
We need to stop creating epidemics within our small echo chambers and provide meaningful feedback to the combat team so they can see how certain changes would really improve the general experience of Vengeance. Because lets be clear, the system it's using isn't going anywhere. They've completely changed how 100+ skills perform in a pvp scenario only, and this is Zenimax we're dealing with and i'm sure their priorities will be changing with how the team invests their time.
We can call it a test.. you can call it culling the pvp community. But we've been through this before.
If you want to change the game to works in favor of how casuals AND veterans participate in pvp, then please stop gaslighting one another and add to the conversation. Berating someone who's enjoying pvp casually and has an opinion on certain mechanics or systems doesn't add to the changes going forward. Infact I'd say it completely redacts a lot of what's being said critically. Stop separating the tiny community we have and we might find a middle ground to make everyone happy.

Dock01 wrote: »

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

Your PvP campaign, Vengeance, is terrible. There's nothing to do there except for going in a group, but if you want to play solo, you should take the NB because you've made it the strongest and most unbalanced class. You've given it advantages that make it easier to play solo. It has its own speed buff, the ability to go into stealth, and good damage multipliers, while other classes don't have anything like that. I've been playing PvP since 2016, and I can definitely tell you that there are too many problems with PvP, and you don't want to deal with any of them. Instead, you're just running more tests. You have a lot of cheaters, players who use macros and game bugs, and they've adapted to the realities of ESO so well that they've been breaking your game for years, while all you can do is run tests. You don't have a proper anti-cheat system, and the one you do have doesn't work properly against dishonest players. To be honest, you don't even want to balance the game properly. Before the introduction of subclasses, the Sorcerer was the strongest class in PvP, and almost every second player played as a Sorcerer, but the Necromancer was the weakest class, so weak that almost no one played as a Necromancer. And so you decided to introduce subclasses, but you didn't fix the previous problems with the classes, and as a result, we now see that almost everyone still plays the same combinations: Sorcerer, Nightblade, and Warden. The other options are rarely used. So where is the diversity? There isn't any, and there never will be. You've somehow eliminated the uniqueness of the classes and made one class the strongest and the other the weakest, but with the introduction of subclasses, the situation has become even worse. I don't know what's on your mind or what your tests will lead to, but I sincerely hope that you will finally see the game's problems and start addressing them.

I agree with everything except the vengeance part I actually love that mode, it’s super fun. But yeah, way too many cheaters and seamless bug abusers exploiting while gaslighting everyone. There’s zero anti-cheat, and the server-side is a joke easily cracked. I’ve got no hope they’ll ever implement real security. ZOS is clearly struggling after all the layoffs, and the content’s stale and boring with an overpriced, trying-to-fool-you price tag. It’s not looking good. I still PvP daily, mostly in BGs now. Got everything I wanted from Cryo and IC already.

Thanks for the comment. I understand your love for the Vengeance campaign, but there was a problem with it as well. By removing passive skills from classes, they took away some of the classes' unique features, making them unable to compete with other classes like the NB. As a solo player with extensive experience, I found this frustrating to witness. Even in the test campaign, they failed to create any form of balance. But I'm not going to change your mind, and I hope that the developers will be able to make this campaign a success for everyone.

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

FolksySpade wrote: »

We can sit here and debate over the positives and negatives of Grayhost AND Vengeance as campaigns, but there's a core issue players need to realize. It's a problem at the core of the game that needs to be addressed and there's no simple solution for it. It's that PvE and PvP NEED to be separated. It's clear the developers have been tip-toeing around a very fine line over balancing sets, classes, passives, content in general just making sure one part of the game doesn't absolutely ruin another. Whether it be adjusting a skill so that it overperforms in a pvp scenario that might invalidate an entire meta for PVE, or regulating another so that's absolutely ruins an entirety spectrum of build archetypes. If ESO wants to continue being appealing to casuals and players interested in coming back to ESO they need to start breaking the power creep and introducing gear and mechanics that draw you into the experience. This game is in a desperate need of a make-over. Every main stream MMO has done it to continue being relevant, and with the current layoffs through Microsoft and losing some core development in the ZOS team... things need to change.
It's clear. You can't make everyone happy and that's a fact. There's always going to be one part of the community that gets left out. We're basically living through a maintenance mode at this point.
We need to stop creating epidemics within our small echo chambers and provide meaningful feedback to the combat team so they can see how certain changes would really improve the general experience of Vengeance. Because lets be clear, the system it's using isn't going anywhere. They've completely changed how 100+ skills perform in a pvp scenario only, and this is Zenimax we're dealing with and i'm sure their priorities will be changing with how the team invests their time.
We can call it a test.. you can call it culling the pvp community. But we've been through this before.
If you want to change the game to works in favor of how casuals AND veterans participate in pvp, then please stop gaslighting one another and add to the conversation. Berating someone who's enjoying pvp casually and has an opinion on certain mechanics or systems doesn't add to the changes going forward. Infact I'd say it completely redacts a lot of what's being said critically. Stop separating the tiny community we have and we might find a middle ground to make everyone happy.

I'm not trying to divide our community, but I want to encourage the developers to start playing their own game and understand what needs to be done with it. I've been watching these dishonest players ruin the game for 9 years, and it's getting worse every year. The developers haven't done anything about it for 11 years, and creating a new PvP campaign won't solve the problem. The issues are too deep-rooted. Adding subclasses has just added fuel to the fire, as if the current problems weren't enough. We can hope and wait for as long as we want, but after 11 years of hoping and waiting for the game to be fixed and many bugs to be corrected, we still have floating pets and subclasses that destroy the class system and its individuality.

I would argue that Vengeance creates the situation where PVP and PVE could be balanced separately. With no set bonuses or curated sets, they can do whatever they want to give us crazy power in PVE, and its not going to impact your character's performance in PVP.

Curated/limited abilities will also allow them to tune PVE skills separately from PVP skills so we can still have fun/powerful abilities in PVE, and balanced skills in PVP.

And we have different health and resource pools in PVE vs. PVP, which allows them to separately balance how each skill set performs in their intended environments without worrying about how it may intentionally or unintentionally impact the other facets of the game.

They're currently trying to achieve the same effect with battle spirit, but its clear that this is just a half-donkey attempt at treating the two facets of the game separately because it doesn't go nearly far enough IMO. Vengeance takes battle spirit to the next level and creates further separation between how your character performs in PVE vs. in PVP.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

FolksySpade wrote: »

We can sit here and debate over the positives and negatives of Grayhost AND Vengeance as campaigns, but there's a core issue players need to realize. It's a problem at the core of the game that needs to be addressed and there's no simple solution for it. It's that PvE and PvP NEED to be separated. It's clear the developers have been tip-toeing around a very fine line over balancing sets, classes, passives, content in general just making sure one part of the game doesn't absolutely ruin another. Whether it be adjusting a skill so that it overperforms in a pvp scenario that might invalidate an entire meta for PVE, or regulating another so that's absolutely ruins an entirety spectrum of build archetypes. If ESO wants to continue being appealing to casuals and players interested in coming back to ESO they need to start breaking the power creep and introducing gear and mechanics that draw you into the experience. This game is in a desperate need of a make-over. Every main stream MMO has done it to continue being relevant, and with the current layoffs through Microsoft and losing some core development in the ZOS team... things need to change.
It's clear. You can't make everyone happy and that's a fact. There's always going to be one part of the community that gets left out. We're basically living through a maintenance mode at this point.
We need to stop creating epidemics within our small echo chambers and provide meaningful feedback to the combat team so they can see how certain changes would really improve the general experience of Vengeance. Because lets be clear, the system it's using isn't going anywhere. They've completely changed how 100+ skills perform in a pvp scenario only, and this is Zenimax we're dealing with and i'm sure their priorities will be changing with how the team invests their time.
We can call it a test.. you can call it culling the pvp community. But we've been through this before.
If you want to change the game to works in favor of how casuals AND veterans participate in pvp, then please stop gaslighting one another and add to the conversation. Berating someone who's enjoying pvp casually and has an opinion on certain mechanics or systems doesn't add to the changes going forward. Infact I'd say it completely redacts a lot of what's being said critically. Stop separating the tiny community we have and we might find a middle ground to make everyone happy.

I'm not trying to divide our community, but I want to encourage the developers to start playing their own game and understand what needs to be done with it. I've been watching these dishonest players ruin the game for 9 years, and it's getting worse every year. The developers haven't done anything about it for 11 years, and creating a new PvP campaign won't solve the problem. The issues are too deep-rooted. Adding subclasses has just added fuel to the fire, as if the current problems weren't enough. We can hope and wait for as long as we want, but after 11 years of hoping and waiting for the game to be fixed and many bugs to be corrected, we still have floating pets and subclasses that destroy the class system and its individuality.

I would argue that Vengeance creates the situation where PVP and PVE could be balanced separately. With no set bonuses or curated sets, they can do whatever they want to give us crazy power in PVE, and its not going to impact your character's performance in PVP.

Curated/limited abilities will also allow them to tune PVE skills separately from PVP skills so we can still have fun/powerful abilities in PVE, and balanced skills in PVP.

And we have different health and resource pools in PVE vs. PVP, which allows them to separately balance how each skill set performs in their intended environments without worrying about how it may intentionally or unintentionally impact the other facets of the game.

They're currently trying to achieve the same effect with battle spirit, but its clear that this is just a half-donkey attempt at treating the two facets of the game separately because it doesn't go nearly far enough IMO. Vengeance takes battle spirit to the next level and creates further separation between how your character performs in PVE vs. in PVP.

Okay, I'll say it again. There are too many fundamental technical issues in the game that can't be fixed by dividing it into different types of play. Bugs and holes in the game that players will exploit will remain, and cheaters and macro users will continue to exist. Creating a new PvP campaign with reduced or slightly modified mechanics won't help eliminate the large number of dishonest players who have taken over PvP. What you're talking about isn't a bad idea, maybe even useful, but in this situation, it doesn't improve the game. As for the campaign itself, it's not bad in some ways, but even in it, the developers couldn't achieve even a semblance of class balance and technical stability. The game is not 1 year old, but 11 years old, and nothing has been done in all that time. It doesn't even have a proper anti-cheat. I've been playing PvP for 9 years on a regular basis. I have a lot of experience playing solo in PvP, and I know that she has too many problems to try to fix them by simply creating a new, stripped-down campaign.

I think ultimately, it becomes a question of what’s more beneficial for THEM? If a vast majority of players play PvE over PvP, it would make sense for them to not really pay as MUCH attention as they do to PvE. That doesn’t mean completely ignore it, which they have largely. The other thing to consider is they are incredibly slow, not at adding additions to the game like they do every year, but at changing things. Thoughtful balance, re works and the like take an absurd amount of time while we continue to get more bloat. Priorities need to change. I’d rather have quality, reworks and more thoughtful long term additions than bloat and broken systems

Cooperharley wrote: »

I think ultimately, it becomes a question of what’s more beneficial for THEM? If a vast majority of players play PvE over PvP, it would make sense for them to not really pay as MUCH attention as they do to PvE. That doesn’t mean completely ignore it, which they have largely. The other thing to consider is they are incredibly slow, not at adding additions to the game like they do every year, but at changing things. Thoughtful balance, re works and the like take an absurd amount of time while we continue to get more bloat. Priorities need to change. I’d rather have quality, reworks and more thoughtful long term additions than bloat and broken systems

I didn't mind at all if they took a break from releasing content, for example, for a year, and focused only on improving the technical aspects and enhancing what was already in the game. After all, there are already too many armor sets in the game, and they don't need that many, but they keep releasing new content and adding more armor sets, even though there are already plenty of old sets that could be improved.

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

Your PvP campaign, Vengeance, is terrible. There's nothing to do there except for going in a group, but if you want to play solo, you should take the NB because you've made it the strongest and most unbalanced class. You've given it advantages that make it easier to play solo. It has its own speed buff, the ability to go into stealth, and good damage multipliers, while other classes don't have anything like that. I've been playing PvP since 2016, and I can definitely tell you that there are too many problems with PvP, and you don't want to deal with any of them. Instead, you're just running more tests. You have a lot of cheaters, players who use macros and game bugs, and they've adapted to the realities of ESO so well that they've been breaking your game for years, while all you can do is run tests. You don't have a proper anti-cheat system, and the one you do have doesn't work properly against dishonest players. To be honest, you don't even want to balance the game properly. Before the introduction of subclasses, the Sorcerer was the strongest class in PvP, and almost every second player played as a Sorcerer, but the Necromancer was the weakest class, so weak that almost no one played as a Necromancer. And so you decided to introduce subclasses, but you didn't fix the previous problems with the classes, and as a result, we now see that almost everyone still plays the same combinations: Sorcerer, Nightblade, and Warden. The other options are rarely used. So where is the diversity? There isn't any, and there never will be. You've somehow eliminated the uniqueness of the classes and made one class the strongest and the other the weakest, but with the introduction of subclasses, the situation has become even worse. I don't know what's on your mind or what your tests will lead to, but I sincerely hope that you will finally see the game's problems and start addressing them.

I agree with everything except the vengeance part I actually love that mode, it’s super fun. But yeah, way too many cheaters and seamless bug abusers exploiting while gaslighting everyone. There’s zero anti-cheat, and the server-side is a joke easily cracked. I’ve got no hope they’ll ever implement real security. ZOS is clearly struggling after all the layoffs, and the content’s stale and boring with an overpriced, trying-to-fool-you price tag. It’s not looking good. I still PvP daily, mostly in BGs now. Got everything I wanted from Cryo and IC already.

Thanks for the comment. I understand your love for the Vengeance campaign, but there was a problem with it as well. By removing passive skills from classes, they took away some of the classes' unique features, making them unable to compete with other classes like the NB. As a solo player with extensive experience, I found this frustrating to witness. Even in the test campaign, they failed to create any form of balance. But I'm not going to change your mind, and I hope that the developers will be able to make this campaign a success for everyone.

well thank you for replying !! and ofc !! anyone has a stuff thy like and dont like ! i understand

I've always loved the idea of ESO PvP, a real campaign which forced you to ride your horse for minutes to attack/defend a keep. Sadly, the game has never excelled in balancing its classes or its gameplay, resulting in a festival of improbable fights which between animation cancelling and over the top skills/equipments is more of a Fortnite match than an actual campaign fight.

The sad truth is, this game works only in PvE, there will always be broken classes, they can't find a way to balance anything, every patch is a radical shift into a new meta and for the first time, with the subclasses they managed to do the unthinkable...which is kill class identity and bring even less choice into the table.

I'm so sorry for all those who play PvP, I wish it would be cool, and Vengeance proved both sides.
It proved that if you literally KILL all set bonuses and skills, you can have a fun experience.
It proved that they still don't know how to balance each class to have some sort of similar chances at a fair fight.

At least on the PvE side we're reaching the 200k dps mark, what an awesome time to be alive.

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

SnakeCrasher wrote: »

FolksySpade wrote: »

We can sit here and debate over the positives and negatives of Grayhost AND Vengeance as campaigns, but there's a core issue players need to realize. It's a problem at the core of the game that needs to be addressed and there's no simple solution for it. It's that PvE and PvP NEED to be separated. It's clear the developers have been tip-toeing around a very fine line over balancing sets, classes, passives, content in general just making sure one part of the game doesn't absolutely ruin another. Whether it be adjusting a skill so that it overperforms in a pvp scenario that might invalidate an entire meta for PVE, or regulating another so that's absolutely ruins an entirety spectrum of build archetypes. If ESO wants to continue being appealing to casuals and players interested in coming back to ESO they need to start breaking the power creep and introducing gear and mechanics that draw you into the experience. This game is in a desperate need of a make-over. Every main stream MMO has done it to continue being relevant, and with the current layoffs through Microsoft and losing some core development in the ZOS team... things need to change.
It's clear. You can't make everyone happy and that's a fact. There's always going to be one part of the community that gets left out. We're basically living through a maintenance mode at this point.
We need to stop creating epidemics within our small echo chambers and provide meaningful feedback to the combat team so they can see how certain changes would really improve the general experience of Vengeance. Because lets be clear, the system it's using isn't going anywhere. They've completely changed how 100+ skills perform in a pvp scenario only, and this is Zenimax we're dealing with and i'm sure their priorities will be changing with how the team invests their time.
We can call it a test.. you can call it culling the pvp community. But we've been through this before.
If you want to change the game to works in favor of how casuals AND veterans participate in pvp, then please stop gaslighting one another and add to the conversation. Berating someone who's enjoying pvp casually and has an opinion on certain mechanics or systems doesn't add to the changes going forward. Infact I'd say it completely redacts a lot of what's being said critically. Stop separating the tiny community we have and we might find a middle ground to make everyone happy.

I'm not trying to divide our community, but I want to encourage the developers to start playing their own game and understand what needs to be done with it. I've been watching these dishonest players ruin the game for 9 years, and it's getting worse every year. The developers haven't done anything about it for 11 years, and creating a new PvP campaign won't solve the problem. The issues are too deep-rooted. Adding subclasses has just added fuel to the fire, as if the current problems weren't enough. We can hope and wait for as long as we want, but after 11 years of hoping and waiting for the game to be fixed and many bugs to be corrected, we still have floating pets and subclasses that destroy the class system and its individuality.

I would argue that Vengeance creates the situation where PVP and PVE could be balanced separately. With no set bonuses or curated sets, they can do whatever they want to give us crazy power in PVE, and its not going to impact your character's performance in PVP.

Curated/limited abilities will also allow them to tune PVE skills separately from PVP skills so we can still have fun/powerful abilities in PVE, and balanced skills in PVP.

And we have different health and resource pools in PVE vs. PVP, which allows them to separately balance how each skill set performs in their intended environments without worrying about how it may intentionally or unintentionally impact the other facets of the game.

They're currently trying to achieve the same effect with battle spirit, but its clear that this is just a half-donkey attempt at treating the two facets of the game separately because it doesn't go nearly far enough IMO. Vengeance takes battle spirit to the next level and creates further separation between how your character performs in PVE vs. in PVP.

Okay, I'll say it again. There are too many fundamental technical issues in the game that can't be fixed by dividing it into different types of play. Bugs and holes in the game that players will exploit will remain, and cheaters and macro users will continue to exist. Creating a new PvP campaign with reduced or slightly modified mechanics won't help eliminate the large number of dishonest players who have taken over PvP. What you're talking about isn't a bad idea, maybe even useful, but in this situation, it doesn't improve the game. As for the campaign itself, it's not bad in some ways, but even in it, the developers couldn't achieve even a semblance of class balance and technical stability. The game is not 1 year old, but 11 years old, and nothing has been done in all that time. It doesn't even have a proper anti-cheat. I've been playing PvP for 9 years on a regular basis. I have a lot of experience playing solo in PvP, and I know that she has too many problems to try to fix them by simply creating a new, stripped-down campaign.

I'm not saying your wrong, but in my experience the cheaters and macro users weren't even interested in playing the Vengeance campaign. The few prominent ones I'm aware of showed up in Vengeance once, proceeded to get smoked, and never showed up again. I can't say for sure whether Vengeance inhibited their ability to make use of cheats or if the cheats simply weren't as effective in the game's stripped down mode, but what I can tell you is that it felt like a far cleaner product to play than our current version of cyrodil. I was able to be in massive battles of over 150+ participants and only ONE time did I experience connectivity issues - during a very windy day, when my connection is usually unreliable anyways (country internet).

Not saying Vengeance was perfect, but I am saying that it felt like it was a step in the right direction. And your right, after 10+ years of neglect, its good to see that they're actually looking to isolate the root cause of poor performance issues in an effort to eliminate them. I think it makes sense what they are doing. Strip down everything to the basics, and stress test server performance as they incrementally add different things back into the server. At some point, they'll be able to see what changes caused the most significant dip in server performance, and then work on fixing those particular issues.

Would I love to see them address other issues in PVP too? Absolutely! There is a VERY SMALL handful of players I would love to see permanently banned from the game (and their consoles bricked and made an example of too), but even if they do that, its not going to drastically improve the PVP server's general performance. Vengeance seems like it will.

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