Could Sithis actually be Molag Bal and could the infamous Blade of Woe actually be Mehrunes' Razor?

thechef209 · July 11

Conspiracy theory time!

I recently finished building my ESO Lore Library, and I was reading Tamrielic Artifacts, Part Two and came across this except:

"Mehrunes' Razor:

The Dark Brotherhood has coveted this ebony dagger for generations. This mythical artifact is capable of slaying any creature instantly. History does not record any bearers of Mehrunes' Razor. However, the Dark Brotherhood was once decimated by a vicious internal power struggle. It is suspected that the Razor was involved."

Sithis, as we know, is the Embodiment of Change, Chaos, and The Void. He's more of a "Cosmic Force" rather than an Aedra or a Daedra. This is where it gets... Interesting.

I found a book in my travels across Vvardenfell, "The Night Mother's Truth".

"Following the Potentate's assassination in 2E 324, strife descended upon the Morag Tong, and the guild was all but eradicated in Cyrodiil and much of the Empire. It was shortly after these events that the Dunmer woman claimed to hear the voice of Sithis himself. The Dread Lord, she claimed, was displeased. He was unhappy with the Morag Tong's lack of success. The Void, he told her, was hungry for souls—and it was her destiny to set things right."

Well now hang on a minute... Manifesting inside a mortals mind? That's the hallmark of a Daedric Prince.

In another book, "The Blade of Woe":

"My Brothers and Sisters assume we share a single weapon, but how can such a thing be? It has never not appeared when I called for it. The mysteries of our Dread Father, I suppose."

So. The Blade of Woe is 1 weapon, it can kill instantly, it would appear Sithis has a consciousness and he's able to clearly communicate with mortals like a Daedric Prince, and to complicate matters further... At the conclusion of the DB Story in Oblivion, the Blade of Woe that is given to the Hero of Kvatch is "powered up". Daedric Princes have been known to manipulate their artifacts at will. For example, Nocturnal's Cowl.

What's more, Mehrunes Razor belongs to Molag Bal, the Daedric Prince of Destruction. He LOVES collecting souls and enslaving them within Coldharbour. The Slave Pits, the Foundry, the Black Forge, etc. Instead of "sending souls to the Void", what if they're *actually* going to Coldharbour?

I don't know... It kinda makes sense...?

Soarora · July 12

I’m of the mind that Sithis is not Padomay but is the Padomaic alternative to Anui-El, created for Padomay and Anu to know themselves. While not as hands-on, it follows a logical line of succession that Padomay and Anu are the least “conscious”, Sithis and Anui-El are moreso, and the Aedra and Daedra are even moreso. After all, the next in line after Anui-El is Auri-El— Akatosh (and again, in balance, I am of rhe mind that Lorkhan is then the next in line after Sithis). All this to say that Sithis shares similarities to Daedric Princes because he is only the next step in godhood above them.

LunaFlora · July 12

interesting theory, but Mehrunes Razor belongs to Mehrunes Dagon.
Dagon is the Prince of Destruction and Change, his realm is the Deadlands.

The Foundry of Woe does coincidentally have Woe in it just like Sithis' blade, but Bal also has other places with sad/scary from the Daughter of Giants quest:
- Prison of Echoes
- Crucible of Terror
- Paths of Toil

i can imagine Bal naming things like this,
but i believe only Sithis worshippers name him and his things like the Blade of Woe, Dread Father, Wrath of Sithis.

LootAllTheStuff · July 13

There does seem to be a bit of overlap:

"Sithis, as we know, is the Embodiment of Change, Chaos, and The Void."
"Dagon is the Prince of Destruction and Change."

Which makes me wonder if there isn't some form of connection between the two. Handled well, it could make for a very interesting side quest, at least!

Soarora · July 13

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

There does seem to be a bit of overlap:

"Sithis, as we know, is the Embodiment of Change, Chaos, and The Void."
"Dagon is the Prince of Destruction and Change."

Which makes me wonder if there isn't some form of connection between the two. Handled well, it could make for a very interesting side quest, at least!

There is. Daedric Princes generally are Padomaic in origin. Though I suppose there’s irony there that Princes can’t change, which would be Anu’s domain. I looked more into the whole godhood funnel thing and it seems Vivec agrees with me for the most part. His belief is Sithis is the soul of Padomay, Lorkhan is Sithis’ son. On the flip side, Auri-El/Akatosh is son of Anui-El, soul of Anu. This would make the funnel like this:

Padomay & Anu (Primordial Concepts)
v
Sithis & Anui-El (Souls of Padomay and Anu)
v
Lorkhan & Auri-El/Akatosh (The first of the gods as most of them are)
v
Daedric Princes, Aedra, Magne-Ge

It’s said by the Mythic Dawn that Mehrunes Dagon was created by the Magne-Ge and imbued with “hope”, which I suppose backfired and he led a revolution on his home planet. As unlikely as this sounds as an origin, it is plausible since multiple sources talk of this planet.

Anyways, they cannot be the same person as that would not match any origin story and would mess up the funnel, but you are right there’s a connection.

Here’s a good read on the origins of gods in relation to the primordials: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Annotated_Anuad note that it is a creation myth and may not be exactly what happened, but there’s truth in most stories.

thechef209 · July 13

Soarora wrote: »

Here’s a good read on the origins of gods in relation to the primordials: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Annotated_Anuad note that it is a creation myth and may not be exactly what happened, but there’s truth in most stories.

Coincidentally, that book is one of the Mage's Guild Lorebooks in the "Divines and Deities" collection. Fascinating read, indeed! If you're on Xbox NA, you can visit my Lore Library in Housing Tours! "Shalidor's Library" by TheChef209 in Shalidor's Shrouded Realm. So far, there are 360 readable books in my house. I'm hunting for more, though...

My headcanon: Shalidor's Shrouded Realm is a pocket realm of Oblivion, which means time is relative and independent of Nirn. Well, the Mage's Guild Lorebooks as a whole is called "Shalidor's Library". So, the house is Shalidor's Library *before* the Mage's Guild got ahold of it and lost every book!

LootAllTheStuff · July 14

The Mage's guild *really* need to beef up the security in their halls - far too many books and dangerous relics go missing from them on a regular basis!!

Muizer · July 14

In oblivion Mehrunes razor and blade of woe are seperate items though?

LootAllTheStuff · July 14

Muizer wrote: »

In oblivion Mehrunes razor and blade of woe are seperate items though?

Not sure about Oblivion, but they definitely are in Skyrim:

Quite different shapes, too.

LunaFlora · July 14

Mehrunes' Razor is in ESO too and of course looks different than the Blade of Woe