It is beyond time that we discuss balancing PvP and PvE separately

T3vvy · July 11

Hurricane being changed from major resolve to minor force is most assuredly due to its overuse in PvP. Yet when you look at PvE, the only place it was being used was in solo builds, and very rarely in group situations. And it wasn't even overpowered or gamebreaking in those builds, just a very good combination of damage and tankiness in one skill, without excelling at either.

This isn't the first time this has happened, where a PvP skill has been changed for PvE, or a PvE skill has been changed for PvP. So I really think its time that ZoS considered balancing these separately.

And we know they can do this, as demonstrated by Vengeance. having a PvP and PvE version of a skill is 100% possible. And if this is already the plan with Vengeance, as the Devs way of moving towards separate balance, then clear communication on this would go a long way to fostering goodwill with the community (something that is sorely needed based on initial responses to the U47 PTS).

Major_Toughness · July 11

Hurricane was used on every PvE Sorcerer build before Subclassing because of the damage it does.

Not sure why you are ignoring the fact that an Armour buff skill has so much damage it is used as a damage skill.

They are also making the change be thematic which makes sense, you know Bound Armour now provides the armour buff. Fitting.

xStaticx · July 11

What about Boundless Storm? It deals half the damage as Hurricane with half the radius. Is it also considered a good DPS skill?

This is why most everyone went with the Hurricane morph.

Boundless needed a buff before this update but now no one will ever use it.

Iriidius · July 11

There is no evidence/proof that this change/nerf was because of PvP as ZOS didnt give any reason nor were there any recent PvP complains about hurricane.
Ranged meta magsorc was using chudan monsterset to not have to slot hurricane and in addition to getting surpassed by subclassbuilds also got most of the buffs making it meta(which hurricane was none of) revised/undone in u46 so there was no PvP reason to nerf hurricane.

Somehow PvE players like to blame every nerf they do not know the reason for on PvP rather than blaming ZOS for making changes nobody asked for.
Actual reason is more likely (making sorcskilllines fit for) Subclassing

YandereGirlfriend · July 11

xStaticx wrote: »

What about Boundless Storm? It deals half the damage as Hurricane with half the radius. Is it also considered a good DPS skill?

This is why most everyone went with the Hurricane morph.

Boundless needed a buff before this update but now no one will ever use it.

Indeed. Boundless needs a giga-buff. Radius needs to be 8m and then to do something actually interesting because otherwise it's still just a worse version of Hurricane. Give it like an Arctic Blast-style 25% base chance to apply Concussed or something and now we're talking a skill that I would actually use.

T3vvy · July 13

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Hurricane was used on every PvE Sorcerer build before Subclassing because of the damage it does.

Not sure why you are ignoring the fact that an Armour buff skill has so much damage it is used as a damage skill.

They are also making the change be thematic which makes sense, you know Bound Armour now provides the armour buff. Fitting.

That wasn't true, a lot of sorc builds opted to slot bound armaments for the passive 8% stam buff instead of hurricane. And even then, the armour bonus wasn't really that big a deal in most PvE, because you were already getting major resolve from Warden healer.

But even then, this was PRE subclassing. If it was a problem before, it would have been changed in one of the patches before subclassing. In PvE now, as I've said, it only sees niche use in solo builds. Even if you used it in group content (which youre unlikely to, the damage isn't that high with subclassing), you still get the same buff from someone running winters embrace. Changing the buff from major resolve to minor force means that this skill just straight up won't see play in PvE anymore.

Also, basically ALL the base classes have the thing of skills, morphs, and passives not being distinguished between support and damage. DK also has a major resolve skill that deals damage over time around you. Nightblades 'heal' line has a skill that used to be one of their best dots (debilitate).

T3vvy · July 13

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

What about Boundless Storm? It deals half the damage as Hurricane with half the radius. Is it also considered a good DPS skill?

This is why most everyone went with the Hurricane morph.

Boundless needed a buff before this update but now no one will ever use it.

Indeed. Boundless needs a giga-buff. Radius needs to be 8m and then to do something actually interesting because otherwise it's still just a worse version of Hurricane. Give it like an Arctic Blast-style 25% base chance to apply Concussed or something and now we're talking a skill that I would actually use.

Before it was good because it was 30 seconds of major resolve and gave major expedition briefly, making it solid for tanking. Now that it's minor force... its basically a dead skill

T3vvy · July 13

Iriidius wrote: »

There is no evidence/proof that this change/nerf was because of PvP as ZOS didnt give any reason nor were there any recent PvP complains about hurricane.
Ranged meta magsorc was using chudan monsterset to not have to slot hurricane and in addition to getting surpassed by subclassbuilds also got most of the buffs making it meta(which hurricane was none of) revised/undone in u46 so there was no PvP reason to nerf hurricane.

Somehow PvE players like to blame every nerf they do not know the reason for on PvP rather than blaming ZOS for making changes nobody asked for.
Actual reason is more likely (making sorcskilllines fit for) Subclassing

I had multiple PvP players in my social guild saying that storm calling was basically mandatory in PvP because it gave access to streak, as well as a source of major resolve that also buffed your movement speed.

None of which is as big a deal in PvE, since outside of solo, you'd get major resolve from winters embrace, and if you really needed movement speed, you had a healer run rapid maneuver. And even then, that last part was only really relevant if you were scorepushing to get the fastest time possible.

T3vvy · July 13

xStaticx wrote: »

What about Boundless Storm? It deals half the damage as Hurricane with half the radius. Is it also considered a good DPS skill?

This is why most everyone went with the Hurricane morph.

Boundless needed a buff before this update but now no one will ever use it.

It was sometimes used on sorc tank because the major resolve duration was longer, and the quick burst of major expedition was sometimes useful. And then obvs as a tank you usually weren't concerned about the damage.

Now... its a dead skill. Somehow deader than hurricane will be.

BlackLabel · July 14

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

T3vvy · July 14

BlackLabel wrote: »

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

Its a good nerf for PvP. Its a HORRIBLE nerf for PvE. Hence the conversation topic

Turtle_Bot · July 14

T3vvy wrote: »

BlackLabel wrote: »

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

Its a good nerf for PvP. Its a HORRIBLE nerf for PvE. Hence the conversation topic

Honestly, I don't even think it's a good nerf for PvP, at least how ZOS has implemented it...

If I want what Storm Calling grants, that being mobility, brutality/sorcery, some sustain and damage, why not take animal companions instead.

Both grant: Major Brutality/Sorcery + major expedition + sustain (animal companions has significantly more) + small "passive" heals + unique damage buffs (storm calling has this in the passives, wardens have it in netch)

Storm Calling grants: Teleport (includes stun), minor expedition (at the cost of major expedition), minor force (currently Major resolve).

Animal Companions grants: Snare removal/immunity, cleanse, unique damage done, evasion or berserk, AoE delayed burst, major and minor breach, unique crit damage and ult gen.

Considering how easy minor force is to source, if it's possible to get a stun from another line, then why bother with storm calling at all?
Assassination (or Aedric Spear) more than covers the raw damage that storm calling provided
Aedric spear also has multiple options for a stun (one of which is also a gap closer that grants major (and minor) protection on cast). Being a Warden base class means any scribed ability with the class script is also one of the most OP stuns in PvP (charm).
This just leaves the need to find a source of Major resolve, of which there are options available. Swapping a proc monster set for chudan seems the best option since it's permanent major resolve + health + armor and animal companions grants a delayed burst that combines with spec bow for that big double burst to land kills.

This new build is even stronger than the current (live) storm calling + assassination + aedric spear build.
It loses, a teleport + monster set proc + less frequent heal procs.
It gains, a delayed burst that combines with spec bow + double breach (9k pen) + bonus unique crit damage + cleanse + better sustain + snare immunity + ult gen + evasion (or berserk).
It keeps, similar raw damage boost + brut/sorc + resolve + expedition + stun.

All this change accomplishes in PvP is 2 things:
1. It forces players to swap their sources of timed burst and resolve around, granting even stronger burst and more overall tankiness, tankiness that is also purely passive now reducing the ability to outplay this build by catching it with the armor buff down
2. Completely removes Sorcerer as a viable base class to run this build.
The build just gets stronger, but also we now only have 3 classes that can run a build that is this strong, down from the 4 classes that we currently have in U46.

L_Nici · July 14

Hurricanes change has nothing to do with PvP, and probably not even with PvE, its just stupid overall.
They force Sorcs to choose between Prophecy and Resolve and Stamsorc can't even get Resolve at all now. That surely is no PvP inspired change as it hits PvP just as hard and no one ever asked for it. Stamsorc is now the only class with no access to Major Resolve.

The skill was fine for 11 years, there is absolutely no reason at all to change it now.

madmufffin · July 14

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

T3vvy wrote: »

BlackLabel wrote: »

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

Its a good nerf for PvP. Its a HORRIBLE nerf for PvE. Hence the conversation topic

Honestly, I don't even think it's a good nerf for PvP, at least how ZOS has implemented it...

If I want what Storm Calling grants, that being mobility, brutality/sorcery, some sustain and damage, why not take animal companions instead.
Both grant: Major Brutality/Sorcery + major expedition + sustain (animal companions has significantly more) + small "passive" heals + unique damage buffs (storm calling has this in the passives, wardens have it in netch)

Storm Calling grants: Teleport (includes stun), minor expedition (at the cost of major expedition), minor force (currently Major resolve).

Animal Companions grants: Snare removal/immunity, cleanse, unique damage done, evasion or berserk, AoE delayed burst, major and minor breach, unique crit damage and ult gen.

Considering how easy minor force is to source, if it's possible to get a stun from another line, then why bother with storm calling at all?
Assassination (or Aedric Spear) more than covers the raw damage that storm calling provided
Aedric spear also has multiple options for a stun (one of which is also a gap closer that grants major (and minor) protection on cast). Being a Warden base class means any scribed ability with the class script is also one of the most OP stuns in PvP (charm).
This just leaves the need to find a source of Major resolve, of which there are options available. Swapping a proc monster set for chudan seems the best option since it's permanent major resolve + health + armor and animal companions grants a delayed burst that combines with spec bow for that big double burst to land kills.

This new build is even stronger than the current (live) storm calling + assassination + aedric spear build.
It loses, a teleport + monster set proc + less frequent heal procs.
It gains, a delayed burst that combines with spec bow + double breach (9k pen) + bonus unique crit damage + cleanse + better sustain + snare immunity + ult gen + evasion (or berserk).
It keeps, similar raw damage boost + brut/sorc + resolve + expedition + stun.
All this change accomplishes in PvP is 2 things:
1. It forces players to swap their sources of timed burst and resolve around, granting even stronger burst and more overall tankiness, tankiness that is also purely passive now reducing the ability to outplay this build by catching it with the armor buff down
2. Completely removes Sorcerer as a viable base class to run this build.
The build just gets stronger, but also we now only have 3 classes that can run a build that is this strong, down from the 4 classes that we currently have in U46.

Aside from someone REALLY wanting access to streak, I really see no reason for anyone to ever pick Storm Calling over Animal Companions at this point. Better passives, better actives, higher skill floor, etc.

Turtle_Bot · July 14

madmufffin wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

T3vvy wrote: »

BlackLabel wrote: »

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

Its a good nerf for PvP. Its a HORRIBLE nerf for PvE. Hence the conversation topic

Honestly, I don't even think it's a good nerf for PvP, at least how ZOS has implemented it...

If I want what Storm Calling grants, that being mobility, brutality/sorcery, some sustain and damage, why not take animal companions instead.
Both grant: Major Brutality/Sorcery + major expedition + sustain (animal companions has significantly more) + small "passive" heals + unique damage buffs (storm calling has this in the passives, wardens have it in netch)

Storm Calling grants: Teleport (includes stun), minor expedition (at the cost of major expedition), minor force (currently Major resolve).

Animal Companions grants: Snare removal/immunity, cleanse, unique damage done, evasion or berserk, AoE delayed burst, major and minor breach, unique crit damage and ult gen.

Considering how easy minor force is to source, if it's possible to get a stun from another line, then why bother with storm calling at all?
Assassination (or Aedric Spear) more than covers the raw damage that storm calling provided
Aedric spear also has multiple options for a stun (one of which is also a gap closer that grants major (and minor) protection on cast). Being a Warden base class means any scribed ability with the class script is also one of the most OP stuns in PvP (charm).
This just leaves the need to find a source of Major resolve, of which there are options available. Swapping a proc monster set for chudan seems the best option since it's permanent major resolve + health + armor and animal companions grants a delayed burst that combines with spec bow for that big double burst to land kills.

This new build is even stronger than the current (live) storm calling + assassination + aedric spear build.
It loses, a teleport + monster set proc + less frequent heal procs.
It gains, a delayed burst that combines with spec bow + double breach (9k pen) + bonus unique crit damage + cleanse + better sustain + snare immunity + ult gen + evasion (or berserk).
It keeps, similar raw damage boost + brut/sorc + resolve + expedition + stun.
All this change accomplishes in PvP is 2 things:
1. It forces players to swap their sources of timed burst and resolve around, granting even stronger burst and more overall tankiness, tankiness that is also purely passive now reducing the ability to outplay this build by catching it with the armor buff down
2. Completely removes Sorcerer as a viable base class to run this build.
The build just gets stronger, but also we now only have 3 classes that can run a build that is this strong, down from the 4 classes that we currently have in U46.

Aside from someone REALLY wanting access to streak, I really see no reason for anyone to ever pick Storm Calling over Animal Companions at this point. Better passives, better actives, higher skill floor, etc.

Not to mention you can run it on warden base class to also get the class charm script.

madmufffin · July 14

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

T3vvy wrote: »

BlackLabel wrote: »

I’m actually looking forward to the hurricane nerf. Too many cookie cutter wardens zooming around cyrodiil with hurricane running. They will need to find something else to use 🤷‍♂️

Its a good nerf for PvP. Its a HORRIBLE nerf for PvE. Hence the conversation topic

Honestly, I don't even think it's a good nerf for PvP, at least how ZOS has implemented it...

If I want what Storm Calling grants, that being mobility, brutality/sorcery, some sustain and damage, why not take animal companions instead.
Both grant: Major Brutality/Sorcery + major expedition + sustain (animal companions has significantly more) + small "passive" heals + unique damage buffs (storm calling has this in the passives, wardens have it in netch)

Storm Calling grants: Teleport (includes stun), minor expedition (at the cost of major expedition), minor force (currently Major resolve).

Animal Companions grants: Snare removal/immunity, cleanse, unique damage done, evasion or berserk, AoE delayed burst, major and minor breach, unique crit damage and ult gen.

Considering how easy minor force is to source, if it's possible to get a stun from another line, then why bother with storm calling at all?
Assassination (or Aedric Spear) more than covers the raw damage that storm calling provided
Aedric spear also has multiple options for a stun (one of which is also a gap closer that grants major (and minor) protection on cast). Being a Warden base class means any scribed ability with the class script is also one of the most OP stuns in PvP (charm).
This just leaves the need to find a source of Major resolve, of which there are options available. Swapping a proc monster set for chudan seems the best option since it's permanent major resolve + health + armor and animal companions grants a delayed burst that combines with spec bow for that big double burst to land kills.

This new build is even stronger than the current (live) storm calling + assassination + aedric spear build.
It loses, a teleport + monster set proc + less frequent heal procs.
It gains, a delayed burst that combines with spec bow + double breach (9k pen) + bonus unique crit damage + cleanse + better sustain + snare immunity + ult gen + evasion (or berserk).
It keeps, similar raw damage boost + brut/sorc + resolve + expedition + stun.
All this change accomplishes in PvP is 2 things:
1. It forces players to swap their sources of timed burst and resolve around, granting even stronger burst and more overall tankiness, tankiness that is also purely passive now reducing the ability to outplay this build by catching it with the armor buff down
2. Completely removes Sorcerer as a viable base class to run this build.
The build just gets stronger, but also we now only have 3 classes that can run a build that is this strong, down from the 4 classes that we currently have in U46.

Aside from someone REALLY wanting access to streak, I really see no reason for anyone to ever pick Storm Calling over Animal Companions at this point. Better passives, better actives, higher skill floor, etc.

Not to mention you can run it on warden base class to also get the class charm script.

Yeah I forgot about that. Really hope they change that to a really nice frost damage mastery instead of the annoying charm thing, but doubt we get anything useful like that.

robpr · July 14

Let's not forget Liquid Lightning still being useless as a dot

MincMincMinc · July 14

L_Nici wrote: »

Hurricanes change has nothing to do with PvP, and probably not even with PvE, its just stupid overall.
They force Sorcs to choose between Prophecy and Resolve and Stamsorc can't even get Resolve at all now. That surely is no PvP inspired change as it hits PvP just as hard and no one ever asked for it. Stamsorc is now the only class with no access to Major Resolve.

The skill was fine for 11 years, there is absolutely no reason at all to change it now.

Hurricane is the only source of major resolve on one of the main 4 damage skill lines. It is definitely an issue for pvp now. That being said, it is sad to see my stamsorc kit being ripped apart after only having hurricane+critsurge+streak as an identity for almost a decade now.

Alas now we must all conform to the subclass BiS template zos lays out for us. Now the cookie cutter thing to do will be to run restoring light or chudan instead. With the ult gen changes, likely people wont want to drop bloodspawn though. Youd effectively double your ult cooldown.

madmufffin · July 14

robpr wrote: »

Let's not forget Liquid Lightning still being useless as a dot

10s class dots should all be twice as strong or last twice as long as they do now. The 10s dots are pretty universally booty, but won't ever change.